The Truly "Tough" cards

[Vintagecatcher]

As collectors, we all know that the terms "rare' and "scarce" are often used too frequently in this hobby.

For me the truly "tough" cards are the ones that are believed to exist, however, I have yet to see them in 20 years of collecting. I'm willing to bet that many others on the board have their own "white whales" that they are chasing.

I thought starting a thread that lists our "white whales" might prove to be an entertaining thread, and hopefully, with a little bit of luck, maybe other board members can provide visual confirmation that these cards truely do exist.

Over the last few months, I have been fortunate enough to purchase three HRK catcher cards that I had never even seen before: Agnew, Price, and Tiedeman. My "white whales" are several Home Run Kisses that I have still yet to see, namely, August Fisher and Ralph Kreitz.

If anyone has a scan or image of these cards, I would love to see them! You can post a scan or email me privately at vintagecatcher@myfairpoint.net.

What are your white whales?


Patrick

[ethicsprof]

still longing for a Fans card and a Drum pack.
in the interim, i am pleased to have a Fan craze game and a few Fan Craze cards(recognizing that they have nothing to do with the Fans i long for )---
i also have a lovely Drum pouch with a 1910 stamp(recognizing that they didn't contain my beloved T206s).

i had heard that a person who owns a forum, which he manages quite well ,might have one of these.

best,
barry

[frankb22]

Are there Uzit packs out there? I've never seen one and would
love to. Definitely would rank high on my list.

[ethicsprof]

there's a great picture of one on Jon Canfield's website.
i think he mentions that he has documented evidence that there are 2 and that's it.
i'd like one,too.

best,
barry

[canjond]

Barry - you are correct my friend. Here is the Uzit pack:



Disclaimer - this does not belong to me. It belongs to a very generous, albeit private collector. Extremely scarce pack.

[Jacklitsch]

1911 Bohen Zeenut.

Other than a diecut appearing in a Lipset auction a few years ago purporting to be a Bohen I've never seen one. Would like to know if a fully intact card does in fact exist.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Vintagecatcher

As collectors, we all know that the terms "rare' and "scarce" are often used too frequently in this hobby.

For me the truely "tough" cards are the ones that are believed to exist, however, I have yet to see them in 20 years of collecting. I'm willing to bet that many others on the board have their own "white whales" that they are chasing.

I thought starting a thread that lists our "white whales" might prove to be an entertaining thread, and hopefully, with a little bit of luck, maybe other board members can provide visual confirmation that these cards truely do exist.

Over the last few months, I have been fortunate enough to purchase three HRK catcher cards that I had never even seen before: Agnew, Price, and Tiedeman. My "white whales" are several Home Run Kisses that I have still yet to see, namely, August Fisher and Ralph Kreitz.

If anyone has a scan or image of these cards, I would love to see them! You can post a scan or email me privately at vintagecatcher@myfairpoint.net.

What are your white whales?
Patrick

Great question, Patrick. Only yesterday, and several times recently I have thought about when "rare" cards become not as rare anymore. The recent onlslaught of T208 Cullivans Fireside cards come to mind. Before this grouping, and the one coming in REA, I think I had seen a total of about 3-4 for sale in almost 15yrs of collecting. And 1 of those was sold twice. Now it seems as they are not as rare as I think they still are. For me it's not a particular card from a set but, as a type collector, "any" card from a few sets. A D355 Niagara Baking comes to mind too. I have seen exactly 1 for sale and didn't get it when I should have. Egan lists several in his guide so I feel very confident more will come out, but who knows when? D351 Grennan Bakery cards also come to mind. I know Dan M has a few but besides those I haven't seen any. Too bad Lew sold most of his collection as I know that is where some of those came from. I am sure I am forgetting a few and will come back when I think of them. I too feel the term "rare" is a much overused word in our hobby. I have nothing against the new, shiny collectors but when there is a manufactured 1 of 1 card, it sort of makes me chuckle. "Manufactured rarity" is a term that comes to mind on those. Again, nothing wrong with them, just not my cup of tea. regards

[jeffmohler]

For me, the tough cards are the 1908-09 Dietsche postcards. They are not as tough as some of the other cards mentioned in this thread, but they are not common either!

A group of these cards just came up in the last Heritage auction, but I didn't have the funds to purchase them at that exact moment since I was negotiating to purchase some Worch cards, which can be fairly tough too.

If anyone has any, I do have some cash and trade bait available

[Cat]

About a year or a year-and-a-half ago the board put together a scan collection of all the Zeenut HOFers. Some scans were even took from a book. We got everybody but Southworth. I don't believe any of the participants in the thread knew what it looked like. Finally, a Southworth stealthfully showed in a H&S auction amid a grouping of other cards. Two guys beat each others brains out and pushed the price of that lot pretty high.


Edited to say: I found that thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ghlight=Zeenut



.

[drdduet]

Type I Coupons are truly TOUGH, samples are scarce, but individuals are RARE!

[tedzan]

Only SEVEN (perhaps 8) are known.







Less than 10 known.






In 28 years, I only know of 4 red Cobb's with the rare SOVEREIGN 460 back.






Only 14 red Cobb's with Ty Cobb backs are known.




T-Rex TED

[oaks1912]

Steve,
Not to browbeat the point, or you, but the Bohen full card exists in a handfull or two Zeenut collections. The trimmed 'marionette' version that Lipset offered several years ago had no nameplate, so a complete example had to exist with which to compare the marionette. Collectors would not have known how the caption read (which is the most important part of Zeenuts). There are a number of advanced collectors that do not read this board, post scans, or 'brag' about their collections. If you really want an image, contact the California Historical Society on Mission Street in San Francisco. They have one in their collection (top trimmed, but identifiable) that they can photograph for you. It usually takes 6-8 weeks and they will charge you about $50 for the service... Mark

[drdduet]

Great stuff Ted!

In your experience, would you say that all the superprint T206's with the Sovereign 460 backs are TOUGHIES?

[Jacklitsch]

Thanks.

Guess I've been told.

[tedzan]

Interesting that you should ask........

"In your experience, would you say that all the superprint T206's with the Sovereign 460 backs are TOUGHIES ?"

Because my experience has been that both Chase's and Matty are more often seen than Chance and Evers. And,
Cobb is seldom seen. I've compared this with other veteran T206 collectors and our experiences are very similar.

If you're interested, I'll search for my numbers and post them on these 6 super-prints with SOVEREIGN 460 backs.

Best regards,

TED Z

[E93]

Ted,
It is my understanding that there were six know Cobb/Cobb backs when Rob Lifson brought five more to the hobby in 1997, bringing the total to 11. Since then I know of one other that was found - thus, 12. Perhaps the Senator Russel example was not previously counted (though I am not sure about that) and that would make 13. Are you aware of an additional example?
JimB

[D. Broughman]

delete

[onlychild]

Ted, that particular Doyle card should give every collector a reason to always buy the card and not the grade.

It's also a reason why every collector who is serious and collects high-end cards should learn how to meticulously inspect and authenticate on their own before making a significant purchase.

Really was an amazing catch by Lifson.
.
.
.
Kevin Saucier

[tedzan]

Until recently, Russell's Cobb was not even known by many. Check me on this, the original find of these Cobb's
from the Atlanta area were six. Subsequently, the same source produced another six. That accounts for 12.

Adding Russell's gives us 13. And, I thought a 14th card (in very poor condition) surfaced. Anyhow, my memory
on this last one is sort of fuzzy. So, perhaps there are only 13 red Cobb's with Ty Cobb backs.

Best regards,

TED Z

[E93]

Hi Ted,
Thanks for that. I think our difference is in the number that Rob Lifson found in 1997. There were five in his auction, not six. So unless there was another that sold privately from the find, the number should be 13. Thanks for the clarification.
Jim

[Wesley]

I just reread Rob's description from his 2008 auction. According to Rob, there were five in the 1997 Georgia find, and "approximately twelve" total.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2008/234.html

[tedzan]

You recall 5 in the auction; therefore, I'll defer to you. You are certainly our resident Ty Cobb back expert.
I was going by my conversations with Rob L. some years back; and perhaps, I may have lost track.

So, 13 is the magic number.


TED Z

[Wesley]

Does anyone know if the ones auctioned in the 2008 Mastro live auction and the 2008 Philip Weiss auction previously known and counted amongst the original 12?

[Epps]

What about the one in the Lew Lipset auction around April. Was that recently discovered?

[bobbvc]

As for the "white whale" question, I've been looking for a Lobert W600 for 15 years. It's listed on most of the period advertising pieces, but are there any survivors? Or even, were any made?

[t213]

Does W590 Spencer exist? I've never seen or heard of one in 15 years.

Andy

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by onlychild

Ted, that particular Doyle card should give every collector a reason to always buy the card and not the grade.

It's also a reason why every collector who is serious and collects high-end cards should learn how to meticulously inspect and authenticate on their own before making a significant purchase.

Really was an amazing catch by Lifson.
.
.
.
Kevin Saucier

*

Kevin are you saying that the above Doyle is a fake?
If so ... you're right.

Hopefully it's not included as one of Ted's guesstimates.

[tedzan]

Joe P and Kevin S

Your observations are correct. The scan I posted (in post #11) is that of a (Graded) fake Joe Doyle error card.
I intentionally posted this card......to see how long it would take for some one here to identify that it is a fake.
As, the tendency on this Net is to assume that every card displayed in a professionally graded plastic is legit.

And, no Joe....that card is not one of the 7 authentic T206 Doyle error cards.



....................................FAKE.......... .................................................. ............REAL




Best regards, guys


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Patrick- I noticed you corrected the spelling of "truly." Well done!

[ullmandds]

i second the spelling correction...kudos!!!!

[tbob]

The 1911 Zeenut Bohen is my white whale. If one ever comes up for sale, it will sell for an incredible amount in ANY condition.
There are other incredibly tough cards I have been chasing for my collection but the Bohen is the holy grail.

[rman444]

A T216 Virginia Extra Cobb or Wagner. Never seen one and don't know if they even exist. A W600 Cobb as well. I have only seen one, and have never seen one publicly available.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rman444

A T216 Virginia Extra Cobb or Wagner. Never seen one and don't know if they even exist. A W600 Cobb as well. I have only seen one, and have never seen one publicly available.

Agreed on these rarities. As time goes on it seems our thoughts on card rarity change a bit. So far the Virginia Extra cards have never had any larger groups show up. I believe there was a group of about 5 on ebay, several years ago, but all had fairly major damage including the all important backs. I have only seen pics of the W600 Cobby.

[uffda51]

This is my card. Has anyone seen another one? Is there a record of a transaction anywhere? Just curious.

This card was not listed in the SCD catalog a few years ago and now it is, but I don't know if others are known. I bought this at the time (10-12 years ago) because I was collecting Black Sox cards and really knew nothing about D303 and/or Mother's Bread. I may have stumbled onto someone's White Whale without realizing it.

I'm still looking for a Plowboy Frank Chance. I've seen a couple so I know they exist but they're not exactly easy to find.

[onlychild]

Joe P and Kevin S

Your observations are correct. The scan I posted (in post #11) is that of a (Graded) fake Joe Doyle error card.
I intentionally posted this card......to see how long it would take for some one here to identify that it is a fake.
As, the tendency on this Net is to assume that every card displayed in a professionally graded plastic is legit.

And, no Joe....that card is not one of the 7 authentic T206 Doyle error cards.

Nice one Ted! With your great knowledge I kinda' figured right away it was a test or you were waiting for a response. Again...nice one!

I'm not sure if it should be called a fake or an alteration...I vote for doctored.

_______________________________________

For those who are new and are are wondering what's this all about:

That particular Doyle card has had the original name removed and then reprinted as the ultra-rare version, valued as much as a Wagner. To top it off, it was graded a PSA 5 and is included in Joe Orlando's book, "Collecting Sports Legends"...page 43. It was spotted by the legendary Rob Lifson of REA, who wrote about it on his blog. It was a spectacular and amazing catch by Rob!!!

As mentioned before, this type of alteration or doctoring is at the very advanced level and requires multiple skilled steps. It was just a matter of time before one surfaced (but on the Doyle and graded!?!)...sure there will be others. This card doctor was a real pro IMHO but by all means it should have been detected by a grader, if not under a black-light then almost definitely under a halogen. Makes one wonder how it passed through? This should be forever talked about and never forgotten...screamed from the rooftops of all collectors.

.
.
.
Kevin Saucier
.
.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by onlychild

This should be forever talked about and never forgotten...screamed from the rooftops of all collectors.

.Kevin Saucier
..

I dare you to post this on the CU boards . As for forgetting it I would guess PSA would like to but since it's in their magnificant coffee table book on the top cards in the hobby it won't ever completely go away. I would also guess the owner is not so happy either, unless restitution has been made.

[onlychild]

I dare you to post this on the CU boards

Good dare!!! Oh man..no way .

Last time I pointed at PSA, I got totally banned by David Hall...all inclusive, submitting, posting, access to the site, they even removed my name from all published articles. Joe and I spoke and he at least gave me my membership back. Would still like my name back on the articles though.

Shame too...it's really a terrific book, well made and spectacular pictures. I would highly recommend it. The cards are simply amazing.

Like you, wonder what happened with the owner? Would be nice to know if they owned up to that one. I was made aware roughly what the owner paid for it and sure the restitution would have had a big impact on their financials. May have been covered under an E&O or some other policy though. Anyone know?

Kevin

[E93]

Originally Posted by Wesley

Does anyone know if the ones auctioned in the 2008 Mastro live auction and the 2008 Philip Weiss auction previously known and counted amongst the original 12?

Wes,
The Mastro one was not a new find. I don't recall the Weiss example, but if they did not describe it as one, I would assume it was not. Do you have a link?
JimB

[Potomac Yank]

No black light, or halogen needed .....

It screams out fake by an amateur doctor.

[cfc1909]

I am pretty sure the Lipset Cobb/Cobb Authentic was a new one along with the Cobb tin.

[cfc1909]

Joe is correct-easy if you know what you are looking at. Amateur...

[Potomac Yank]

Is also incorrect .....

[rman444]

Bruce,

There was another that sold in the D303 Mother's grouping from Mastro back in 2006.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...px?lotid=60832

Originally Posted by uffda51

This is my card. Has anyone seen another one? Is there a record of a transaction anywhere? Just curious.

This card was not listed in the SCD catalog a few years ago and now it is, but I don't know if others are known. I bought this at the time (10-12 years ago) because I was collecting Black Sox cards and really knew nothing about D303 and/or Mother's Bread. I may have stumbled onto someone's White Whale without realizing it.

I'm still looking for a Plowboy Frank Chance. I've seen a couple so I know they exist but they're not exactly easy to find.

[uffda51]

Thanks for the info, Dan. Much appreciated.

[Epps]

Bruce, that is one of my white wales. I no that Ted G also has one and I'm pretty sure that you guys have the only ones known. The others are the Gilmartin Printing Weaver and the Texas Tommy Jackson. You have some amazing Black Sox cards.

Edited to add that rman444 beat me to it.

[rman444]

Originally Posted by uffda51

Thanks for the info, Dan. Much appreciated.

No problem. It's Richard by the way.

[uffda51]

Sorry Richard, I got you confused with R337man!

[rman444]

I've got the better looks. He's got the better Cobbs. What can I say

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Joe P and Kevin S

Your observations are correct. The scan I posted (in post #11) is that of a (Graded) fake Joe Doyle error card.
I intentionally posted this card......to see how long it would take for some one here to identify that it is a fake.
As, the tendency on this Net is to assume that every card displayed in a professionally graded plastic is legit.

And, no Joe....that card is not one of the 7 authentic T206 Doyle error cards.



....................................FAKE.......... .................................................. ............REAL




Best regards, guys


TED Z

*

Would you have a better scan of the Doyle you call real?

As it is ... It does not look Koscher.

Thank you.
Joe

[tedzan]

JOE

I do not have this card, all I have is this "poor man's" version of the T206 Doyle error card.......

PRINTER's MARK (remnant of "N" in Nat'l)
.................................................. ............................................. /\



The scan on the right is a xerox copy of a REAL Joe Doyle error card. It is the only scan I have
for an A-B comparison.

You are one of only 7 collectors that are fortunate enough to have this extremely rare Tobacco
card. It behooves you to show us a nice large scan of it.


Regards,

TED Z