Question about T-213's

[marvjung]

Hi guys - haven't posted in a while.

I recently picked up a couple of my first T-213's (Type 2) and I notice that whenever these come up for sale (mostly looking on Ebay), that a significant number of these are really beaten up. I have seen on a rare occasion some nice quality T-213's, but for the most part, most look like they've been through the ringer and then some.

I was wondering why the 213's were in such rough shape?

[canjond]

I have speculated before that Coupon's are often in worse condition than other cards due to their packaging. While most cards of the era were packaged in slide and shell cigarette packs (cardboard packs with an outer shell and inner slide), Coupon utilized a soft pack configuration. See my website below for an image of the pack:

http://www.baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

Because the pack was not stiff, the card inside was not that well protected (or so I assume).

[caramelcard]

Interesting Jon. Thanks.

T213 type 1 are some of the thinnest tobacco cards ever made which would explain why they didn't stay in good shape for the last 100 years.

Rob

[canjond]

Rob - it's only a guess but seems logical to me. Part of the reason type 1s may have been thin is because a thicker cardboard may have ripped the cigarette wrapper. Again, just a guess.

[canjond]

I should add, I've spoken with a few cigarette collectors at length about Coupon packs and they have provided me with enough information to be fairly confident that Coupon cigarettes were not offered in a slide and shell configuration. Jim Shaw owns the Coupon cigarette pack pictured on my website (which is a softpack) and it does date to 1910. It is the only period Coupon pack I have ever come across (all others I have seen date to the 1920's through 1940's with many being in cellophane).

Interestingly, Coupon is not the only cigarette to package cards with softpacks in this time period. Pirate also packaged its cards in softpacks. Later on, however, possibly in the 1920s, Pirate switched to a slide and shell configuration.

[tbob]

Interestingly enough when I was lucky enough to be a part of the 4 person group that uncovered the "Southern Find" back in the mid 80's, there were no T213-1s, only 2s and 3s. The 2s were in mixed shape but a lot of them were in very nice shape. I ended up with about 200 2s and almost all the Hall of Famers but the 6 Cobbs I got were between VG and EXMT. There were 25 Cobbs total in the lot! The other 3 people in the group wanted 2s but I knew how rare the 3s were so I ended up with a near set of 3s, all in VG to EXMT. I lacked 2 cards of having the entire set and was able to find two T213-3s which were unknown at that time. Long gone now, sold them to Bill Mastro 20 years ago...

[slidekellyslide]

I just picked up my first T213-2 this week and it's in pretty good shape...it had to have been issued in 1916 or early 1917 though because Krause only played in Omaha in 1916. I guess with the lack of Coupon packs known though it's hard to say what kind of pack it came in.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by tbob

Interestingly enough when I was lucky enough to be a part of the 4 person group that uncovered the "Southern Find" back in the mid 80's, there were no T213-1s, only 2s and 3s. The 2s were in mixed shape but a lot of them were in very nice shape. I ended up with about 200 2s and almost all the Hall of Famers but the 6 Cobbs I got were between VG and EXMT. There were 25 Cobbs total in the lot! The other 3 people in the group wanted 2s but I knew how rare the 3s were so I ended up with a near set of 3s, all in VG to EXMT. I lacked 2 cards of having the entire set and was able to find two T213-3s which were unknown at that time. Long gone now, sold them to Bill Mastro 20 years ago...

I'm sure you've told the story before but what was the southern find?

[rman444]

Originally Posted by canjond

Interestingly, Coupon is not the only cigarette to package cards with softpacks in this time period. Pirate also packaged its cards in softpacks. Later on, however, possibly in the 1920s, Pirate switched to a slide and shell configuration.

Jon - interesting. I have never seen a Pirate soft pack, but many slide and shells. What leads you to believe that the Pirate backed cards were not issued in the slide and shells and these are not circa early 1910's? The number of Chinese beauties/warriors Pirate backed cards leads me to believe that they were issued in the slide and shells.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by rman444

Jon - interesting. I have never seen a Pirate soft pack, but many slide and shells. What leads you to believe that the Pirate backed cards were not issued in the slide and shells and these are not circa early 1910's? The number of Chinese beauties/warriors Pirate backed cards leads me to believe that they were issued in the slide and shells.

A few different reasons... When Hagar made a find of Pirates in the late 1990s (some may recall his auction of them in SCD), the cards came with originals opened packs, all of which were soft packs. Also, more recently, Leon came across an unopened Pirate soft pack which had a card inside. Leon can hopefully fill in more details here. Lastly, I've conversed with the British Cigarette Pack Collectors Club. One of its board members filled me in on the history and the timeline for Pirate slide and shells. Pirate utilized slide and shell starting in the 1920s and into the 1950s.

[canjond]

FYI - here is a Pirate softshell from my collection:

[canjond]

Found the thread to the unopened Pirate Leon discovered:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rate+cigarette

[Leon]

The Pirate pack I had definitely had a card of some type in it. No one I showed it to (and felt of it) disagreed. It was very obvious. You could actually squeeze the sides and hold the card, while still in the unopened pack. I traded it away quite some time ago for something I wanted more....regards

[tbob]

Hi Jon. "The Southern Find" (so termed by Bill Mastro) occurred when I was contacted by John England a former card collector and dealer, who told me that he had been contacted by a man from Louisiana who had over 2000 T213 Coupon cards he wanted to sell but John couldn't afford to buy them all himself. We went together with two other individuals and bought the cards for $10,000, his asking price. The cards were in incredible condition and were brought to us in a large box where the elderly gentleman said he had had them since he was a young boy. At the time (around 1980), Coupon cards were considered inferior to other tobacco sets like the T205 and T206 and were not collected by very many collectors since they were a regional issue from Louisiana. Because they had the same images on the front as those on the T206 set, they were also not very desired. When we got the cards, we divided the cards as follows: we would take the 24 Cobbs and based on a draw, the first person would get his pick, then second would take the second best and so on. If there were an odd number of cards, like 14 Mattys, we would divy out the Mattys and the last two people would get the first two Johnsons. Then the commons would be divided first come first serve, the 2s and 3s together. I took 3s until I had the near set (missing 2), then started taking 2s. I had 2 Cobbs, McGraw, Bender and five more 3s with the overprinted backs along with the near set.
I sold my duplicate 2s for $2500, so I was even and still had the near set of 3s which I sold about 2-3 years later (to my now chagrin). Finally I sold the overprinted 3s about 20 years later, when they suddenly were bringing much, more than 20 years before although not what they bring now.
The near set of 3s went to Bill Mastro (for peanuts now :-( ). I noticed a couple of years ago a beautiful small grouping of T213-3 HOFers in his catalogue which went for a bunch and which he attributed to the "Southern Find." I think this is evidence that that near set of mine was broken up. Shame. No clue where the 2s went. I assume John England's T213s went to Larry Fritsch as John sold Larry his complete collection of baseball cards for close to a million dollars supposedly. One other partner, Dick DeLong, who opened up a card shop after England sold out, ended up selling all his T213s. My Dad actually bought many of them and I sold them for Dad on eBay about 8 years ago, there were a ton and they were very nice. Dad sold off his complete baseball card collection (he started collecting long after I did) and accumulated one of the best matchbook cover collections around (gack!) That left one person whose name I won't mention for privacy sake. When we divied up the cards, she couldn't be present and asked me to pick for her since she trusted me. She had quite a beautiful haul of cards, almost all T213 2s and most without any cracking. I'd say that she has close to a set and I believe maybe the best collection of T213 2s in existence. I hadn't asked her about the cards in over 25 years but her son said she told him she still had all the cards. Safely hidden away.
It was a great adventure. The seller got his asking price and the buyers got a very good deal. My only regret is that I didn't keep that T213-3 near set. Putting together a near set now, card by card, would be almost impossible, plus extremely expensive if you could find the cards at all.
For those not familiar with the T213s, the 2s have a very glossy front which makes them extremely prone to cracking. The 3s have a flat, dull look with no gloss. They are not nearly as aesthetically pleasing as the 2s but are much, much harder to find. The 2s say "20 for 5 cents" on the back, the 3s say "16 for 10 cents." That is the difference in the backs, except the overprints and that is another story for another day.

[canjond]

Wow - what a story. I sure hadn't heard that one before. Congrats on a great find.

[gabrinus]

Last time I checked Bob there was about 30 of those type 2 left. Some type 3s with a Cobb overprint. Some Kottons and General Bakings too. I believe alot of those cards went back to Delong.

[tbob]

Thanks Jerry, I didn't want to give out any information about who the 4th person was for privacy and security purposes. Glad she still has some left
BTW- nice pick up on the Austin E97 proof the other day.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by rman444

Jon - interesting. I have never seen a Pirate soft pack, but many slide and shells. What leads you to believe that the Pirate backed cards were not issued in the slide and shells and these are not circa early 1910's? The number of Chinese beauties/warriors Pirate backed cards leads me to believe that they were issued in the slide and shells.

To add something to the Pirate discussion from yesterday that I failed to mention the first time... while I feel confident that T-215 are connected with Pirate softpacks (I should qualify this since I believe there is speculation that Pirate T215s were never inserted into packs), I am unfamiliar with the Chinese cards. I have seen them before, but do not know which year(s) they were produced. If they were produced into the 1920s or later, than they could very well be associated with pirate slide and shell packs, too.

[tbob]

I don't know what a T213-3 Cobb with overprinted back would go for now but I believe there are fewer of these reported than T206 Cobbs with Cobb backs. Now that doesn't rule out the possibility that there are more unreported but they still are exceedingly scarce.

[tedzan]

Great story regarding your T213 find and thanks for sharing it with us.

Question for you......since you are in Arkansas, have you seen any T213's in your region ?

Or were they strictly marketed in Louisiana ? ?


Thanks,

TED Z

[tedzan]

I have only two 1910 COUPON cards and several T213-2's and 3's.
And, I don't agree with the comment that the Type 1's are of "thinner stock".

These cards were printed simultaneously with the regular 350 Series T206's in 1910. The two I have
compare exactly with any T206 thickness.

Hopefully RICHARD (rman444)....will chime in here and tell us if his Cobb is thinner than a normal T206 ?

Personally, my limited experience with these Type 1 COUPON's indicates that they were not printed on
thinner cardboard than a T206.













Can we get some more inputs on the question I have raised here regarding the T213-1 card's thickness ? ?


T-Rex TED

[White Borders]

Hi Ted,

I have 13 raw T213 Type 1's and all are much thinner than T206's.

Best regards,
Craig

[canjond]

Ted,

I have two and mine are both thinner.

- Jon

[danmckee]

I believe this same problem occurs with the T227's that were soft pack only.

[oaks1912]

Ted....All of my Type 1 Coupons are on a thinner stock, as with all others I've seen. Perhaps you're confusing them with Type 3's.....

[tedzan]

Come on guys....me "confused" on the 1910 COUPON's ! ?

I'm one of the few collector's here that contend that these cards are really the 16th basic T206 T-brand.

I guess I better get my calipers and micrometer and measure my two cards.......either that, or I have two
very unusual Type 1 cards.


TED Z

[canjond]

Ted,

I'm with you that Coupon's are the 16th brand, but I still think they are thinner.

- Jon

[tedzan]

I know you agree with me on this subject; however, I think you and I are in the minority on this forum.

These cards were printed simultaneously with the regular 350 Series T206's in 1910. The 68 cards in
this set are 350 Series Subjects. Their back design is virtually identical with the Am. Bty, Broad Leaf,
Cycle and Drum issues. All my research into the 1910 COUPON cards virtually proves my argument that
it indeed a T206 issue.


........1910 COUPON................T213 type 2.................T213 type 3







As for the debate on the thickness of the cardboard stock; as I said, I'll measure my COUPON and a T206
with a micrometer and report back to you.


TED Z

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I know you agree with me on this subject; however, I think you and I are in the minority on this forum.

As for the debate on the thickness of the cardboard stock; as I said, I'll measure my COUPON and a T206
with a micrometer and report back to you.

TED Z

Actually I think most on this forum agree with you about the T213-1 being a type of T206....though I am not one of them....but only for the reason that I don't think changing the ACC is a good thing. But besides that debate the T213-1's are thinner. You don't need to get any calipers or measuring devices. They feel like they are almost paper thin. I have probably handled around 30-50 type 1's (raw) and all have been the same. There is no need to debate the thickness issue, imo.

[DixieBaseball]

My T213-1's are definitely thinner than any T206 that I own. They are thinner than any Tobbacco card that I own including T210,T211,T206, etc...

I have handled several raw ones and I will never forget the first one I handled. It told me a lot about why these types are so scarce and why if one is in VG condition, you are holding a high condition Coupon... They are down right flimsy...

Here some more boilerplate for you... I just checked the POP report for PSA and that report tells you all you need to know about the condition sensitivity... Highest Graded Type 1 Coupon is graded a "4." (That's right, a 4, no typo...)

SGC does not break out Coupon's by Type 1, 2, or 3 so who knows with their POP report !?!?

[tedzan]

Mark Macrae and I just discussed these cards......and, it appears that I have at least one 1910 COUPON
that is thicker than most. Mark and I will be set up at the National and I will bring this card to the Show.


TED Z

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Mark Macrae and I just discussed these cards......and, it appears that I have at least one 1910 COUPON
that is thicker than most. Mark and I will be set up at the National and I will bring this card to the Show.

TED Z

Ted it sounds like you have a one off type card. I love those kind!! I am looking forward to seeing it... The other T cards as thin would be T216 Virginia Extra and whatever the Derby Cigarette cards are.

[tbob]

Hi Ted, yes I am in Arkansas and Louisiana is our southern neighbor but I have never seen a T213 pop up anywhere in this State to my knowledge, they have come from Cajun Country. I keep thinking that one of these days some from Louisiana will come up with another find of those other La. issues like the Victorys but as of yet, nada. I have a friend who was going to troll through Louisiana stopping at antique shops and flea markets to try and see if he could spot any Coupons or Victorys or Red Crosses but he decided against it. You have to think with all the technology and the internet these days that most people have an inkling that these cards ar valuable. Couple that with the fact I have only been aware of one prewar collector from Louisiana with a significant collection, a guy who owned a restaurant in New Orleans for a while (I think his name is Mike Schwartz), and it's plain to see that they aren't floating around that state.

[gabrinus]

Bob, I am like you on Lousiana. It has had more obscure sets than any other state yet I had zero luck talking to dealers from there. There maybe some great collection stuck in an attic or an antique shop, but then you have to think about what Katrina did. Are there any collectors/dealers on the board from Louisiana??

[DixieBaseball]

Ted - I would love to see this card as well... Hope to catch up with you at the National... I know the raw Type 1's I have are thin, but now I want to go crack open the one's in plastic to see if there is any variation... (I will mull that over for awhile) If that is a one off card, let the speculation begin on how, why, who, and what... Very interesting... Question for the experts.... Help me connect the dots... Were most, or all Tobacco cards produced at the same location (N.Y.), then shipped to these factories for packing, etc. ? How many different locations produced the T cards ? Would it have been simply a error when producing the T213-1, where by a sheet was made with the thicker card stock from one of the other La. brands, then shipped to factories for packing with cig's, etc. ?? I can see where if all of the (see below) brands were being produced there was a variety of different card stock. We know that T213-1 and T211's were being produced around the same time, right !? Their thickness is different, but they were sent to the same factory number 3 in La.

- Factory No. 3 (La.) - T211, T213-1,2,3 (red sun, coupon)
- Factory No. 4 (La.) - T216 (kotton,mino)
- Factory No. 8 (La.) - T214,T213-3 Overprint (coupon,virgina extra)
- Factory No. 10 (N.J.) - T215 (red cross)
- Factory No. 11 (La.) - T216 (kotton mild and sweet)

This Cobb card of Ted's possibly gives more insight into the process back in the day, with all these different type's, as we know there was not just 3 types with Coupon (diffent thickness,glossy,dull,blue ink) but also differnt types for the Kotton, Mino, and Red Cross Cig's as well...

Very interesting Ted - How bout a measurement !?

[DixieBaseball]

Bob - Tell me about the Victory find... I have not heard about that and was just curious as to when that was, how many, etc.

It is interesting that there have not been any major Red Sun, Kotton, Mino, Coupon, Red Cross finds from someone that strictly smoked those brands, happen to keep the cards, tossed them in a box, and at the very least possibly found, put away again.

I have to believe that there will be something yielded with significance at some point in the future.

Any one up for a Road Trip ?! (I wish I had a week to dedicate to such a venture, as I would go ahead and "troll" as you mentioned the antique shops, area's around the factory, old stores, etc.) Put that one on the to do list, and catch a little minor league ball in the process...

Interesting stuff guys -

[Donavon]

tbob,

I am in Louisiana and have scoured the state for T213's for about 10 years to no avail except for a lone Type 1 Mathewson which I quickly snagged without quarreling over price. The Mathewson I found came from an antique shop in Kenner, La. which is only about 15 min. from New Orleans. My collection of Coupons has come from various auctions and dealers.....with much difficulty. I believe most of what has been found were sold & moved away long ago. Hope this helps.

[Donavon]

Bob,

I am in Louisiana and have scoured the state for T213's for about 10 years to no avail except for a lone Type 1 Mathewson which I quickly snagged without quarreling over price. The Mathewson I found came from an antique shop in Kenner, La. which is only about 15 min. from New Orleans. My collection of Coupons has come from various auctions and dealers.....with much difficulty. I believe most of what has been found were sold & moved away long ago.


Jeremy,

Good luck with your venture.....I have been doing this all across the state for 10 years for any of the above mentioned "Louisiana" issues. Other than the one T213 Mathewson & a T213 soft pack (see scan below), I have been able to grab a couple Red Suns out of the state (both boxers) and 4 Tango Eggs issues....all of which were found about 7-8 years ago. With gas prices back up, I just thought I'd warn you before the road trip.

[gabrinus]

Donavon, I was going to drive down that way a few weeks ago from Arkansas until it hit 100 degrees here. I was not as tempted to drive South when that happened. I may go down in the fall anyway. There is always etouffe' and other attractions in New Orleans.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Donavon

Jeremy,

Good luck with your venture.....I have been doing this all across the state for 10 years for any of the above mentioned "Louisiana" issues. Other than the one T213 Mathewson & a T213 soft pack (see scan below), I have been able to grab a couple Red Suns out of the state (both boxers) and 4 Tango Eggs issues....all of which were found about 7-8 years ago. With gas prices back up, I just thought I'd warn you before the road trip.

Donavon... Slim pickings, maybe, but that Coupon pack is Incredible ! Do we know if it is from the 1914 era ? Seems kind of wide, but it is the only Coupon pack I have ever seen... Nice !

JJ

[canjond]

Jeremy,

Coupon packs are extremely scarce. The one pictured above dates to the 1930's so was not actually used in card distribution. I have only seen one original Coupon pack from the correct time period. It belongs to Jim Shaw but is pictured on my website, here:

http://baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by canjond

Jeremy,

Coupon packs are extremely scarce. The one pictured above dates to the 1930's so was not actually used in card distribution. I have only seen one original Coupon pack from the correct time period. It belongs to Jim Shaw but is pictured on my website, here:

http://baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

-- I knew I had seen a skinnier, more colorless pack, and after seeing your scan, it came back to me that I saw that pack on your website ! Thanks for keeping me in line !! (Wished I owned that lone pack!) So I need to add that to my Louisana search when I hit the countryside...

[Orioles1954]

Last year I picked up a VG-EX T213-1 of Engle for $30 at an antique shop in.......Reno, Nevada! Never know where "mini finds" will happen.

[drdduet]

Louisiana born and bred here.

The only cards that came out of Katrina's wake were musty smelling 80's and 90's topps, fleer, and donruss.

Over the years I've found hundred's of Coupon's--mainly type II's. I was also party to a Victory find several years ago. A couple of Tango Eggs, some T210's, but mostly T206's. Louisiana issues are TOUGH except for the T213-2's.

Don't bet on any major finds down here as the humidity, heat, and storms have taken the toll on antique paper. I suspect there are more Louisiana issue specimens residing in collections outside Louisiana than there are in attics and closets in Louisiana.

Cut Off, Louisiana (that is, Cut Off as in from the rest of the world)

[drdduet]

And Ted,

I agree with t213-1 being T206's.

[Leon]

I have not seen another of these cartons. I think it's close to period...

[Donavon]

Leon,

Is that carton even remotely tradable or sellable???? PM me.

[Donavon]

Originally Posted by canjond

Jeremy,

Coupon packs are extremely scarce. The one pictured above dates to the 1930's so was not actually used in card distribution. I have only seen one original Coupon pack from the correct time period. It belongs to Jim Shaw but is pictured on my website, here:

http://baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

Jon,

I was told 1927 according to the tax stamp. Would that be correct?

[canjond]

Originally Posted by Donavon

Jon,

I was told 1927 according to the tax stamp. Would that be correct?

It could be. I don't quite recall off the top of my head when cellophane was first used. Note that from 1918 until 1931, tax stamps did not have a “Series of” date printed directly on the stamp, itself. Rather, overprints were sometimes used. As a general rule of thumb, if a cigarette pack does not contain a “Series of” date or overprint, it will, in all likelihood, date from 1918-1931.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Donavon

Leon,

Is that carton even remotely tradable or sellable???? PM me.

sorry Donavon....the carton is not for sale.....thanks for the inquiry....