T206 Joe Doyle Question (or "The Uncommon Common")

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott T

Much like Joboo in the movie “Major League”, I offer the esteemed board members rum and a cigar in exchange for their wisdom, guidance, and expertise regarding this question:

I know the “Joe Doyle NY Natl Hands over Head” is quite possibly the rarest card in the T206, but why does the ““Joe Doyle NY Hands over Head” T206 sell for so much more than a normal “common” T206? (It’s the last “common” I need for my low grade set!)


Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Back in the mid '80s Larry Fritsch, who supposedly was the first to discover
the Joe Doyle error/variation, started buying up all the Joe Doyle (NY) cards.
So, for a while this card was somewhat tough to find.

I still do not see too many of them (relative to the other commons). But, to
really answer your question....because of the high value associated with the
Joe Doyle (NY Nat'l) collectors will pay more for the common. A better example
I can give you are Honus Wagner cards. As the T206 Wagner increased in value,
it elevated the value of all other Wagner cards in different sets. Irregard-
less of how available those Wagners are.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...that Scot Reader also posited that there was an FBI investigation into the fraudulent use of authentic Doyle NY cards to make forged Doyle Nat'l cards. As part of that investigation, many authentic common ones were confiscated, and who knows where those are now -- stuck in some evidence cabinet somewhere, etc. Thus, the supply of the common ones is much less than the other commons.

I got mine in a group of commons a few years ago, with no particular attention paid to it then. May be a more recent phenomena.

[Archive]

Posted By: Art M.

A slight correction to the Larry Fritsch story from the early 1980's.
True, Larry did run ads in the hobby papers offering to buy ANY T206 Doyle card for $3.00 each after finding this variation in 1980. And the Doyle cards did pour in by the hundreds, but none were the Doyle, N.Y. Nat'l variation.
While this scenario would seem to make the Doyle, hands over head, pose a less common card it would also follow that the Doyle portrait, Doyle batting, and Doyle throwing would be as tough since Larry was buying ALL Doyle cards. And they are not.
I have always believed that the Doyle, hands over head pose is tougher to find because:
1. Popular card for counterfeiters.
2. The caption for this card was changed during the print runs. Same for the Magie/Magee and the few other changes that were made. For sake of argument, lets say that 5000 of each card was to be printed. Maybe 20 sheets with Doyle cards got out with N.Y. Nat'l. and then the change was made and the remaining 480 sheets came out with N.Y. So there would be as many "Doyle, hands over head" cards as the others but they would be divided between the N.Y. version (98% maybe) and the N.Y. Nat'l. (2% maybe).
So any card printed along with Doyle on the sheet would have 5000 copies, but the Doyle (common) and Doyle (rare) would have to be combined to total 5000.
I hope that makes sense.

[Archive]

Posted By: fkw

I think its the same reason the T206 Magee portrait sells for a bit over the common price as well. Its the closest some collectors will be to the rare card. Maybe to fool a friend ??

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Art M

Are you sure Fritsch was buying all the T206 Doyle cards ? The story I heard
was that he was just asking for the Joe Doyle cards. The Larry Doyle cards
(portrait, batting, and throwing) were really not of interest to him. Of course,
more than not, he probably received a lot of the Larry Doyle cards anyhow,
since many suppliers did not know the difference.

[Archive]

Posted By: Art M.

Ted,
Yes, positive that Larry was buying all types of Doyle cards. He did not want to raise any suspicions by just asking for the hands over head pose. Luckily there are 4 different Doyle cards. He told me this story personally years ago and I also have copies of his want ads somewhere. I will post a scan if I can locate one.
Art

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

While Larry Fritsch may have bought all Doyles, I believe he only sold the Joe Doyles to the Flint, Michigan man who tried to alter them and was arrested. This may explain the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyles.
Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Jones

Who was the man in flint out of curiosity?

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Hello Ted and Scot,

I ditto what Art M. says.

Larry Fritsch found his first Joe Doyle in 1980, not in mid 1980's.

Like Art says, Larry advertised for ALL Doyles, he didn't want to tip his hand.

Larry told me this when I visited his Cooperstown museum in 1987.

Would love to know the story and source from Scot Reader, about the FBI, and the man from Flint.

Scot, you can post it, or you can send me an E-mail.

Macrae and I, know the name of a dealer from Flint MI. that was at the 1990 Texas national, and the purchasing dealer from the Mile high area at that show.
What they had in common is that one sold an altered card to the other, and that card originated from DR. Koos in the East coast.
Being that I was the hunter/tracker in that 1990 Texas episode, I definitely would love to compare notes.

Thanking you in advance.
Joe

[Archive]

Posted By: Trae R.

Art M. I'd enjoy seeing the want ad.

Thanks

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Ted is still passing on hearsay misinformation, and Scot Reader believes that Fritsch sold all his Joe Doyles to a dealer in Flint, MI to alter. ... Source please.

Ted, ask yourself?
When Larry had the upper hand, being the only person to know about the Doyle error, why would YOU think that he would only advertise for the Joe Doyle card.

Would Socrates done it that way?
Would Socrates tip his hand?

Art M. told the story as it happened.
You have to get yourself a new source of hearsays.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Joe,

I received my information from former T206 collector Marc Bourgea, who lived in New Hampshire when we last corresponded a few years back. I consider Marc a trustworthy source. If you want more information, I suggest you contact Marc or, better yet, contact Larry Fritsch--as he was the one who, at least according to the information I received from Marc, sold the hoard of Joe Doyles to the Michigan individual.

Scot

Edited to add: The relevant issue to me is not whether Larry Fritsch advertised for all Doyles or only for Joe Doyles. Rather, the salient issue is what, if any, Doyles were lost to the hobby. According to the information I have, the Michigan individual only bought the Joe Doyles that Mr. Fritsch had accummulated--for obvious reasons this person did not purchase Larry Doyles from Mr. Fritsch. Hence, assuming this information is accurate, it was only Joe Doyles that were lost.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

There is no need to explain to this individual. He just wants to engage in controversy, as is evident in his reviving this old thread.
Joe is a "one subject"....broken record....that keeps reiterating....Joe Doyle....Joe Doyle....Joe Doyle....Joe Doyle.

Many of us on this board are becoming quite fed up with his NEGATIVISM....he adds nothing worthwhile to the discussion

Scot....and everyone else....consider this....is there a SCARCITY of T206 Larry Doyle cards on ebay, or wherever ?
The Larry Doyle throwing pose (possiby a 150-only card) is somewhat tougher than his other 3 cards....but, I repeat....

are Larry Doyle cards tough to find ?

NO....NO....NO....NO....a 1000 times....NO.


Whereas, there is....NO DOUBT....in any one's mind that T206 common JOE DOYLE cards are hard to find.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Ted Zanidakis
(Login tedzan)

All Doyle cards ...... March 27 2006, 8:00 PM


Art M

Are you sure Fritsch was buying all the T206 Doyle cards ? The story I heard
was that he was just asking for the Joe Doyle cards.

*
*

To Ted ... anyone that is contrary to his opinion ... is a NEGATIVE.
Change your source of HEARSAYS Ted.