New evidence of T206 expanded 350/460 series cards

[tedzan]

Some years back, Art Martineau noted the difference in the color of the Sovereign backs. Most were printed with a normal green color,
and some with a lighter green color. Recently, Jim Rivera posted a thread regarding this lighter, "candy apple green" color variation of
certain SOVEREIGN backs.

In the SOVEREIGN print run, the subjects in the 350/460 series category are not identified as they are with the PIEDMONT or SWEET
CAPORAL backs (i.e., "350-460 Subjects"). The SOVEREIGN cards in these mid series are all printed as "SOVEREIGN 350 Subjects".

However, all 61 subjects in the 350/460 category exclusively have candy apple green backs. All the other 341 cards of the SOVEREIGN
set have a normal green colored back.

Recently, while looking over my complete SOVEREIGN set, I observed 5 more that have apple green backs. Scot Reader had predicted
that Kleinow & Smith would have apple green backs. Given this apple green pattern, I think we can be 100% certain that the following
5 subjects were intended to be 350/460 cards. However, American Litho. did not extend these 5 subjects into the 460 press runs due
to the following events......

Joe Doyle........................traded to Cinci.(May 1910); career ends June 25, 1910
Red Kleinow (NY)..............traded to Boston May 1910
Simon Nicholls (bat)..........traded to Clev (spring 1910); career ends May 1910
Bob Rhoades (arm ext.)......career ends Summer of 1909
Frank Smith (white cap).....traded to Boston in the Summer of 1910.


To summarize.....this subtle change in green color reveals to us, 100 years later, that American Litho. had originally planned to print 66
subjects in their 350/460 series. Further evidence of this fact is that none of these 5 additional subjects exist with the AB 350 (frame)
back. Which of course, if they did, would contradict this entire premise....since the AB 350 (frame) back is strictly found with 350-only
cards.

Therefore......
66 = 55 (350/460 subjects) + 6 super prints + (Doyle, Kleinow, Nicholls, Rhoades, Smith)


OK, so why the difference in ink color for this intermediate SOVEREIGN series of 66 cards ?

One possible explanation is that American Litho. started printing this series of 66 cards about the same time (Summer of 1910) when
they printed the AB 350 (frame) cards. As, a similar shade of green ink appears on them, too.

I'm not sure that this guess explains why....so, let's hear your guesses as to why ? ?


Four of the 19 HOFers in the 350/460 series



Green back of 150, 350 and 460 series cards



/\..................................The 5 intended subjects for the 350/460 series that were not printed with 460 backs................................../\


The 6 super-prints that are in the 350/460 series with SOV 350 backs have candy apple green backs.



TED Z

[Rich Klein]

Wasn't he and Doug Allen supposed to print a T206 book years and years ago.

[ethicsprof]

Ted,
it sure looks like the number 6 is mighty significant here!
Care to elaborate on your theory that 6 is the numerical key to T206s?!
i'm still incubating the AB apple color connection herein that you've raised.
great work.
best,
barry

[tedzan]

Barry A

Here you go, ole buddy....some more "candy apple green" cards for you. Four more HOFers from the 350/460 series cards
in my all-SOVEREIGN set.

Have to run now....I'll respond to your question later today.

In the meantime, I expect you to arrive at some plausible explanation for these candy apple green backs



350-only card for comparison


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

great pics,Ted.

no theories about the choice of color yet but am anxious to hear your take on the 6 Code for T206!!!

best,

barry

[tedzan]

Barry A

You asked......"but am anxious to hear your take on the 6 Code for T206"

It's not rocket science ole buddy.....it's simply in the numbers........

The four series are comprised of the following number of cards:

150 series = 156 subjects......note: Collins (batting) never issued
350 series = 270 subjects......see note below
460 series = 48 subjects
So Lge series = 48 subjects


The four sub-series are comprised of the following number of cards:

150-only = 12 subjects
Horiz. cards = 6 subjects
Texas Lgrs = 6 subjects
Super-prints = 6 subjects

By golly......all these numbers are exactly divisible by SIX.


NOTE......the 350/460 series was derived from the 350 series subjects. Originally, there were 66 candidates
intended to be extended into the 460 series. However, 3 of of these guys Major League careers ended, and
2 were traded to Boston. Therefore, 61 were actually printed with 460 series backs.


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

I see it,ole friend!!
I bet your next step is to show how this code may well help us to decipher a key element in the printing of the actual sheets!
Continue, sir.

best,
barry

[tedzan]

This thread without a list of the T206 cards in the 350/460 series is not complete..........
so here is the checklist of all 66 subjects.

List of intended 5 subjects (from 350 series) that were not extended into the 460 series:

Joe Doyle
Kleinow (catching NY))
Nicholls (bat))
Rhoades (arm extended)
Frank Smith (white hat)

Checklist of the 61 subjects (from 350 series) that were extended into the 460 series:

Ames (hands over head)
Baker..............................HOF
Bender (no trees)..............HOF
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)............HOF
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow potrait).......HOF......super-print
Chase (blue portrait)......................super-print
Chase (dark cap)...........................super-print
Cobb (red portrait).............HOF......super-print
Cobb (bat off)...................HOF
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)...................HOF
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky).........HOF.....super-print
Griffith (bat)......................HOF
Jennings (one hand)............HOF
Jennings (two hands)..........HOF
Johnson (pitching)..............HOF
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)...................HOF
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat).......................HOF
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap).........HOF.....super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off)..................HOF
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)........................HOF
Willis (throwing).................HOF
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)..................HOF


TED Z

[toppcat]

Great thread Ted!

[jimonym]

Hi Ted.

Very nice find on Doyle, Nicholls, and Rhoades. I love coming to this board and finding insights like that. Freely shared, too.

I'd preface this all with a big Probably, but one implication is that these five cards, like the other 350-460 cards, were among the last 350 series cards designed and distributed. I mean, if we go on the presumption that the reason some 350 series cards were also part of the 460 series is that their period of production overlapped both series.

I still have more research to do, but I firmly believe that the 350 series was actually several waves of releases. The first 350 cards were those that had been first produced as 150 series cards, and the Southern Leaguers that we've previously identified as having been in the first batch of Southern League cards released. Then probably some of the Eastern League and American Association players and the rest of the Southern Leaguers and some of the Major Leaguers and then some more of each, and finally, those 350 series cards that were released again with 460 series cards and backs.

One day we'll have to have a proper thread on that topic, because understanding the sequence will help unlock two other T206 conundrums: the "logic" behind front/back combinations, and the way that the cards were laid out on sheets for printing. Well, they're all intertwined -- unlock one and you unlock them all.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your Net54 reporting on the apple green Sovereign 350s. Your discovery of J. Doyle and Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) with this back is very important in explaining why these subjects are more difficult than run of the mill 350-only subjects. I would venture to say that these two subjects [along with Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols and Smith (Chicago White Cap)] are probably at least 1.5X more difficult than garden variety 350/460 RP subjects, since about 2/3 of the 350/460 RP print run involved 350 series backs, while the other 1/3 addressed 460 series backs.

One thing that puzzles me is why the six 350/460 superprints are found with the apple green Sovereign 350 back rather than the forest green Sovereign 350 back. As you know, the superprints were generally printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350-only subject group (American Beauty 350 Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights, Cycle 350). And they were generally NOT printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350/460 RP subject group (American Beauty 350 No Frame). We would thus expect the superprints to be found with the forest green Sovereign 350--not the apple green variety. Yet this does not appear to be the case. Any thoughts on this apparent anomaly?

Scot

[tedzan]

Consider the following......

In the Summer of 1910, the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (with FRAME) cards were first launched....192 subjects are found
with this back (including the 6 super-prints).
Is there a possible correlation between the light green color of the backs of the 66 cards in the SOVEREIGN "350/460"
series and the light green color of the FRAME design on the backs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 cards ?

Check out the scans of these backs....Am I imagining this, or were the light green SOVEREIGN backs printed with same
green ink as the AB frame design and the "Base Ball Series....350 Subjects" lettering ?

Continuing......however, the "AMERICAN BEAUTY CIGARETTES" lettering appears to be somewhat similar to the forest
green ink on the SOVEREIGN 350 card of Irv Young. I may be wrong, but I think the AB 350 backs were printed with 2
different shades of green.

Scot

If I recall correctly from your timeline, the general 350/460 cards were first launched Summer/Fall 1910.


Jamie

I like your theory that possibly explains how (or why) certain 350 series cards were selected to continue into the 460
series. However, Joe Doyle (intended 350/460 subject) appears to be an exception to this rule. Since the established
thinking on Doyle's card was that he was printed in the initial 350 series press run (re..Doyle error card).







TED Z

[tedzan]

Responding to your......

"One thing that puzzles me is why the six 350/460 superprints are found with the apple green Sovereign 350 back
rather than the forest green Sovereign 350 back. As you know, the superprints were generally printed with backs
otherwise exclusive tothe 350-only subject group (American Beauty 350 Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights,
Cycle 350). And they were generally NOT printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350/460 RP subject group
(American Beauty 350 No Frame). We would thus expect the superprints to be found with the forest green Sove-
reign 350--not the apple green variety. Yet this does not appear to be the case. Any thoughts on this apparent
anomaly?"

Here goes my "wild" imagination again: the apple green backs found on the 6 super-prints with Sovereign 350 backs
is indicative of American Litho's initial decision to extend these six (very popular guys) into subsequent (460) series
and subsequent issues (T213's, T214 and T215).

The one puzzling factor regarding the 6 super-prints that bugs me is....why two Chase poses ?

Instead of the Chase (dark cap), they should have Tinker's portrait card.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Your story........
"I still have hopes that someone will rip the walls out of a 1912 built house someday and find a few dozen sheets
acting as insulation. That happened with some movie posters in PA years ago and they were worth a fortune."

reminded me of........
My experience back in 1985. Bob, owner of a BB card shop in Cherry Hill (NJ), called me with an exciting find. I im-
mediately left work for an extended "lunch hour" and drove to his shop. I was amazed to see 8 original 32-image
tin printing plates of the entire 1954 Bowman set. Actually, the 54B set comprises of 224 cards, so 7 of these com-
plete plates made up the set. And, there was an extra 32-image plate. On this extra plate of 32 images was the
famous (and scarce) #66 Ted Williams image.

So, there were 2 such plates in this original find with the #66 Ted Williams image. So much, for the myth back in
the early 1980's that this card's plate was "broken".

Bob acquired these 54B plates from a nearby neighbor who had moved into a home and found them attached to the
attic rafters in order to seal a leaking roof.



TED Z

[jimonym]

Dave,
I have a couple uncut sheets of Piedmont cigarette boxes (circa 1915-1920) that the seller told me were found in a old house under three layers of flooring. Usually I'm skeptical, but in this case I actually believed him. So, I guess, always be attentive when doing renovations. Maybe one year an uncut sheet of T206s will walk into the National...stranger things have happened.

Ted,
You raise some interesting points. Let me think about it and try to pull some thoughts together.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Responding to your......

"As you know, the superprints were generally printed with backs
otherwise exclusive to the 350-only subject group (American Beauty 350 Frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights,
Cycle 350). And they were generally NOT printed with backs otherwise exclusive to the 350/460 RP subject group."

Unless I am reading this wrong the addition of Cycle backs should not be included since all the SP come with 350 and 460 backs.

Lee