Ebay Seller Credit Card Question

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Posted By: Josh A.

Good afternoon everyone.
I have an issue that I wanted opinions on.
I am bidding on a card on Ebay, and in the Seller's terms of payment, it says that if the buyer wishes to use Discover card, a $200.00 minimum is required. However, it is against Discover's policy to charge a minimum amount for use of their card. I read the entire item description and terms of payment before bidding, yet I still plan on paying with my Discover card.
Am I making a big deal over nothing, should I just send a money order? I like using credit cards because it offers a little more protection than a money order/cashier's check.
Just was wondering what everyone thought?

Thanks,
Josh

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I think that the seller's terms are clearly spelled out, and if you don't agree with them, you should ask the seller if he will waive the minimum requirement, or offer some other comprimize.

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Posted By: Josh A.

Gilbert,
Thanks for the response. I thought about that, but why should I be the one trying to cut a deal, when the Seller is not following Discover card's policies? Just because he is a Seller on Ebay, does not mean he can just make up rules and call them "terms." Just like the seller who disclaims liability before the item reaches the buyer. Sellers are responsible for delivery, regardless if insurance was purchased.
I guess I am just a little fed up with Sellers on ebay making up their own rules as they go along, with flagrant disregard for set policies, and rules of law.

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Posted By: andy becker

is the discover card direct or through paypal?
my thought in advance...
direct payment would mean the seller has a store...and then his minimum would be wrong.
if it is through paypal...then the seller should not accept paypal.
either way i'd abide by the auction rules the seller has stated.
my nickel, less $.03

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Posted By: Josh A.

It is direct, no PayPal. He also has a physical store in California. I don't understand why there is a belief that if a Seller states certain terms in his/her auction, that such terms must be valid. If Amazon.com required a minimum CC payment, people would be up in arms.

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Posted By: andy becker

since he does have a physical store...why don't you inform him of discover's policy.
i would like to hear the response, perhaps discover would too.

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Posted By: Josh A.

I have contacted Discover and told them about his practices. They said that I should tell him what Discover's policy is, and that he is required to take payment. If he fails, Discover said I should file a report with the company.
I will be sure to keep you posted.

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Posted By: Brent Butcher

Why can't the seller set his own policy? Someone decided to set the policy at Discover and you recognize that. Some sellers also say they don't ship overseas and people recognize that. I guess what I'm getting at is a seller can set all the rules or policies he wants and then its up to you to do business with him. If he is breaking Discover's policy that's between him and Discover card.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I would politely ask the seller about his payment policies. It's possible he made an honest error or didn't know the Discover rules and will be change it

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Posted By: Josh A.

Brent,
I'm not disputing that a Seller can set his policy for an item. However, refusing to ship overseas is somewhat different from a vendor agreement with a credit card company. The seller in that case has an obligation to take payment in form of the credit card, regardless of the amount. In your hypothetical, the seller is under no obligation to ship overseas. Therefore, the seller's refusal to comply with his contractual requirements with Discover had a direct impact on me.

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Posted By: andy becker

good luck, josh.
and be cool, the seller still has something you want (i think), and can still leave a ebay neg....
take care

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Posted By: t210

i have to agree with brent on this one, some sellers don't accept personal checks because of too many buyers writing bad checks, some sellers make insurance mandatory because buyers think the seller is responsible in some way if they don't have the item insured, if you don't like the terms don't bid on the item, there are terms i see all the time that keep me from bidding, everyone has terms, eric.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

There is an eBay seller who sells quality items and who has the following statement of shipping terms (paraphrase):

"Shipping is $6 on this item. This price is more than the price of postage. The price includes packaging and me having to carry the item in downtown New York City to the post office and wait in line. If you don't find the shipping charge acceptable, please do not bid."

When I first read that I thought, "Fair enough."

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I will leave the legality up to those here who have that as a part of their expertise.

You requested thoughts, not legal opinions. I still think that if a seller chooses, he can state any terms he wishes. If those terms are unacceptable, then a purchase can not be made until terms acceptable to both parties are agreed to.

If it is possible to legally force a seller to accept your terms, I would tread gently on that ground (actually, I would not tread on that ground at all).

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Posted By: Josh A.

Gil,
Well, I am an attorney, so I thought I have a small bit of "expertise" in that area.

I do appreciate everyone's thoughts, if I am in the wrong, I will be happy to admit it.
I still feel that terms such as shipment and acceptable methods of payment, are vastly different than a contractual obligation with a CC company. If I walked into this person's store and paid with a Discover, he would have to accept payment. Why does this change simply because the item is now listed on Ebay?

I'm glad there are so many responses, thanks for everyone's point of view.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I agree with the seller in this case,when he sets guidelines in his auction then he expects people to follow them or not bid.Its just like saying US customers only but someone from a different country winning and then saying well the post office delivers to us so you have to also.

I always say if you cant follow their rules dont bid,they have to follow ebay rules when they list items or they cant list them but they dont have to accept discover as their payment so if they want a minimum then thats their right

Ive not bid on stuff i wanted before because i didnt want to go along with the sellers rules and i would expect people to do the same in one of my auctions if im selling

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Posted By: Josh K.

I have to agree with Josh on this one. Maybe its a lawyer thing, or just all the Joshes need to stick together. But, in my opinion, Discover has a vendor contract with the seller in which the seller is contractually obligated to accept the card for any charge presented. That contract is made by discover for the benefit of its card holders. The reason the seller doesnt want to accept the card is the fees charged by discover are obviously higher than he would like to pay - his solution is not to accept discover at all and not to add conditions to his acceptance of the card that he is not contractually permitted to do.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'm with Josh. If Discover says that their vendor cannot set a minimum purchase requirement, then what they set as terms in that regard is meaningless. John talk about following the rules, yet says the seller is within his right to do so. What about seller following the rules set forth by Discover?

The seller is wrong in this case, plain and simple. He is viloating his agreement with Discover.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Brent Butcher

I accept Discover at my fitness club but if I didn't want to because I didn't feel like it that day that is up to me. Sure my customer could call Discover and complain but all Discover could do theoretically is??? I don't even know what they could do but it is still my right to accept payment on my terms and not be forced into something else. If I violate Discover's policy that is between Discover and I and if my customer still wanted my product/service he still has to pay in a means I see fit. I agree the seller is setting terms that are out of the ordinary but it is his right to do that.

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Posted By: Josh K.

In some respects you are right - you can accept or reject discover if you chose - however, if you agree to accept it, I do not believe it is your right to place conditions on the acceptance that violate your agreement with discover. If you do violate that contractual agreement, you will likely be subject to having your right to accept discover revoked - and who knows, there may even be some form of liquidated damages provision for a breach.

Also, as a seller, you dont simply have the right to refuse payment of a legal tender as you see fit - I guarantee you that the first time you refuse a credit card that you have contractually agreed to accept and the person you are refusing is in a protected class (a legal term us employment lawyers use) you will be faced with a discrimination lawsuit.

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Posted By: Aaron

This is the kind of thing that gives us lawyers a bad name.

Josh, very few sellers on E-Bay accept credit cards. So to those that do, you almost have to treat it as a privilege they are extending you.

The few that do allow credit card payment, however, might be unwilling to allow a credit card charge for items that sell under a certain price because the credit card company charges them fees and they'd lose too much money on the sale. (You can see this at say, a Jamba Juice where they won't allow you to charge for less than $5.00.)

Maybe the seller simply feels that it's not worth it financially to accept a credit card payment for items sold for under $200. Who knows. But as long as that's spelled out in his payment instructions, that's his prerogative.

So is this exactly what the "vendor agreement" with Discover Card says? Uh, no, since you actually took the time to call Discover Card and check this out (shaking my head over that one).

But in the practical (non-law school books) world where perspective thankfully has a place and sometimes you just gotta say life's too short, you pretty much have to shrug your shoulders and deal with it. You either pass on the item or bid and pay according to his instructions.

You know his policy and if you challenge it and it ends badly for you, you'll have no one to blame but yourself.

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Posted By: johnny c

if the payment method don't fit,then you must acquit

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Posted By: Josh A

Aaron,
All very good points. However, why do you "shake your head" at the fact that I called up Discover?

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Posted By: Aaron

Josh: I'm sure I feel as passionate about my collection as most anyone on this forum. So, I know what it's like to sometimes make a big deal over something that non-collectors would feel is foolish. So, in that sense, I can completely understand you taking this matter so seriously.

I also know how rampant E-Bay is with fraud, so I'm always skeptical of some sort of scam when bidding on auctions held by unfamiliar sellers. So, in that sense I applaud you for doing your homework (like not bidding immediately so you have time to consider his payment instructions and then bringing the matter here to get feedback from fellow collectors).

All that said, however, actually getting so worked up about a clearly-stated payment policy that is in no way fraudulent that you actually go to the trouble (and take time out of your day) to call your credit card company to inquire about the validity of his policy, and then formulate a plan to circumvent it (that would involve more headaches), means that you've crossed that thin white-bordered line and need to step back and take stock of what you are doing.

You are calling your credit card company because a guy on E-Bay won't take your credit card so you can purchase a baseball card.

I'm sure that's not one you'd like to get around to the partners at your firm.

So basically, that's why I was shaking my head.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

As a business owner myself who has a signed contract to accept Visa/Mastercard, but not Discover I side with the seller setting his terms. I had a customer who would come in EVERY day and use his card to buy an 89 cent pop (soda for you easterners). The credit card company charges me 25 cents per transaction and a percentage of the sale so it wasn't worth it to continue to do this. When I told him I would no longer take a CC for less than $10 he called the CC company and complained. Sure enough I got a call from my CC company and they told me this violates my contract with them and that if I continued this they could take away my CC service. I complied with that, but the guy tried to come in and do it again about a week later and I told him to hit the road and that I didn't want his business --- that IS within my rights. Even though I did sign the contract and didn't know that I couldn't set a minimum, I still believe that it is within my rights to conduct business how I want to. Luckily I don't get very many customers charging pop on credit cards.

I don't take Discover, but it makes me wonder why he has such a high minimum set for that particular card.

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Posted By: Josh A

Aaron,
True, they are still only baseball cards. What gets me worked up is the fact that some sellers (not just on ebay), do what they want, with disregard for the law. That is why I took time out of my day to call Discover. Also, if I am a Discover card user, I feel Discover would want to know that some vendors place restrictions on customers' ability to use its card.
Thankfully, I do not work at a firm yet. I clerk for a judge, and all of this was accomplished on my lunch hour. Although I suspect his honor would be mighty upset if I took time out of my work day to do this!!!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

What law are they breaking??? Violating a contract with Discover does not equate to law breaking.

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Posted By: Josh A

I know, I know. Poor choice of words. Sorry!

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

just before you click "comfirm bid" that states you are entering into a legally binding contract. Also stated is: "YOU are responsible for reading the full item listing, including the seller's instructions and payment methods.". Sounds very clear to me. Also, sounds like (according to eBay), that, by law, one will have to follow the seller's instructions should he/she win the auction. The credit card matter really sounds like that one is between the seller and Discover - not really a legal issue unless Discover decided to do something about it (which they would not in such a small matter, as it would be very costly for nothing).

Also, as I have done with Larry Fristch (instead of wasting my time and money returning items), - do not bid or buy if you do not like or accept the seller's practices.

I really don't see where the seller is breaking the law myself - he states his terms. If you like them - bid, If you don't like them - then do not bid (because when you bid, you are entering into a contract with the seller to abide by HIS/HER terms). It seems to me the minimum charge amount issue is more of a matter between the seller and Discover.

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Posted By: Josh K.

In my opinion, the option for this seller is to (1) accept cc's per his agreement with the cc company or (2) dont accept cc's. Essentially, this is exactly what Dan did with the .89 pop guy. He did not set a minimum - he just told the guy that he didnt accept his business period.

I sell on ebay - I dont want to pay cc fees to paypal so I just dont take them. When someone pays with a cc despite my instructions, I deny the payment.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

How about this line of thinking.The seller is basically saying

If you bid 200 dollars or more than i accept discover as payment for this item
If the bid is less i dont accept it.

He is not breaking any rules with discover then because he is not offering it as a payment option.That seems pretty cut and dry

If i had an auction that said free card if price goes over 50 bucks,that means im only offering the card if price goes over 50 bucks.You cant say i want the free card because you were willing to give it away anyway why penalize me for not reaching the amount you specifically set forward in your auction rules.

Its his auction,he sets the rules,discover isnt his partner in the auction,they are a form of payment.

Ebay is pretty simple,you bid if you are willing to buy the item you bid on and are willing to accept the sellers rules.If you arent willing to accept them then dont bid and dont run and tell on them.If someone says a check takes 10 business days to clear then i accept it or dont bid but last time i checked they dont take 10 days to clear,i dont go and tell their bank that they are holding my money and product longer than they should.

If i was the guy id take the discover payment,then give you a negative for not following the rules you agreed to,then ban you from my auctions.That way you get what you want at a slight price to your feedback and he wouldnt be bending any rules by doing that

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

I think the seller should take any amount you want to give him on the Discover card. If he wants to set terms, then he should not accept them... I know he has disclosed the terms but it still does not make good business sense... Make prior arrangements before buying item... JC

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Posted By: jay behrens

I am amazed by most of you. You cry when a scammer violates the rules of eBay, but when this guy violates his vendor agreement, it's ok. Nice double standard.

The person that refused the business of a person charging the soda did it the right way, he refused ALL of his business. So why does the seller get to refuse your business if you don't meet a minimum price, yet take your business if you meet it? The vendor agreement clearly states that you cannot set a minimum. You are either going to take a person's business or you aren't. As a seller, you don't get to set the a minimum because you already agreed with the cc company that you would not do this.

In the big scheme of things, is this that big a deal? No. But Josh is right, the seller should not have a minimum set if he is going to accept credit cards when his credit card vendor agreement states that he cannot do this.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Please proceed as you outline and keep us appraised of what happens.

Im offering 30-1 odds that the seller makes him wait over a month for the card.

But my terms are all betters must put their wager up in dubloons one month prior to the actual auction. All bets must be placed under the large rock behind my house (and I will not reveal my address).