Nonexistent Vintage Cards still Listed in the Hobby

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Posted By: David Seaborn

I believe the board once touched on this quite some time ago. I thought it would be interesting to have a thread devoted to cards that have been listed in major hobby source as exisiting due to hearsay, folklore, specualtion, etc., but you have never seen and you question whether they indeed exist.

My contribution:

N162 Goodwin's Champions - Sure Shot Dunlap (Detroit). This variation is still listed on SGC's Set Registry, where I believe no collector can ever get attain 100% completion.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

McClellan, Brooklyn in the N284 Buchner Gold Coin issue. According to Lipset it was checklisted by Burdick and has stayed on the checklist despite no one having seen one.

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Posted By: Steve M.

The Schaefer/O'Leary combo postcard in the 1907 Detroit Dietsche set. It's in the guide and major auction houses still list the set as complete less this card. Again, it simply does not exist!

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The funny part about the Dunlap (Detroit) N162 is that it has been listed as the less expensive of the Dunlap N162 cards.

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

I know TBob and I continually harp on this one but the only difference in the P2 checklist that Lew Lipset put together and the Krause Catalog is the addition of a 3rd variation of Mullen, Large Letters, Dark Cap.

I cannot find any P2 collectors who have this pin and have asked around to different auctions houses for past scans and have never turned up an image of this pin.

Bob Lemke himself came on the board a year or so ago when he was still affiliated with Krause and said that he remembers adding the pin to the catalog but couldn't find the documentation for it.

My opinion is that it was likely the small letter version and was just misidentified as a Large Letters version.

If it exists, I sure as heck would like to see a scan of it!

Scott

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Posted By: scott brockelman

The T204 Square frame George Howard does not exist, years ago when I thought it did I posted everywhere trying to buy one. Then I learned the origin of the Square Frames and found out that it was probably complete at the 6 known. A year or 2 later both guides began listing it, but when I questioned verification, neither had any proof.

Scott

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Posted By: David Seaborn

Fred - Excellent point, I've noticed that too and it just shows how completely messed up some of the 'price' guides are. Not only do they list the Dunlap\r (Detroit) card, but then that same card (which if existed must be ultra-rare) is listed as cheaper than the common variation. Ugh! Unbelievable...

Scott - I've notcied that addition in the last couple years on the Ramlys. Makes you wonder how exactly cards are added onto these guide checklists. Seems like verification would be a must. I wish there were a way to correct these mistakes, which in some cases cause us set collectors to chase around for particular cards for years until we find out they were never made.

Here's another one I'll toss into the ring. Does anyone really think there are 90+ different T215 Pirate cards? I feel this checklist must have come from someone just transposing the list from the Red Cross set or something similar to that.

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Posted By: leon

I think there are more than 90 different T215 poses...In my short time in the hobby (9-10 yrs) I have probably seen 60 different...so I would think there are more than 30 more different ones I haven't seen... I am not even awe struck by what I see come out anymore.... Seems like I recall a few fairly large groups that have come out. Maybe 20-40 in each one....?? regards

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Posted By: David Seaborn

Leon,

Are you sure those had Pirates backs you're talking about and weren't Red Cross backs? While Red Cross backs are rare, I don't doubt their checklist. The Pirate backs are so rare though, I can only think of a handful of individual cards I've ever seen.

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Posted By: Leon

My bad.....yes, I was talking about regular T215's. I too have only seen a few T215 Pirate backs and would definitely think there are way less than 90 (in total) known or existing.......at least until that big hoard comes out ....

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Posted By: scott brockelman

they were using a parallel checklist. DID they exist?possibly, DO they exist now? probably not, due to such a low production issue. surviving copies are quite scarce.

Scott

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

if they were issued in the southern europe ,was it not
for the servicemen ?....well, if so ,I dont think that
they were of an importance to keep em. If they had gotten
in others hands, most likely those who did have them were
disinterested.I do believe that the 90 0r s0 did exist.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Leon and Scott know my obsession about the Pirates...
How 'bout the Niagara Bakery issues? How many are there?
SCD also lists a whole host of T214 Victory's, but I've only seen 3 or so...

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Posted By: warshawlaw

virtually every near mint card listed in the guides, especially for 19th century cards, zeenuts, etc., has to be considered non-existent. One of the things I could never understand about the price guides is how their editors could create pricing for these cards in three grades across the board.

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

Very innovative thread....when I was collecting e107 Type 2s, I could never confirm the existance of the Type 2 Seybold. I posed the question to the board a while back and no one responded as saying that they had seen it. I checked with a good number of collectors both on and off the board too and none of them had it or could confirm that they had seen it. Type 2s are oftentimes confused with Type 1s so I wonder if, originally, someone could have just confused a hacked up Type 1 Seybold for a Type 2 perhaps.

Of course I can't confirm this and am fully aware that Net 54 collectors really only amount to a small percentage of the individuals in the vintage hobby altogether. So it may really be out there - all I'm saying is that I haven't been able to confirm that it exists. (my little disclaimer there! )

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

David S.

The June 2001 issue of VCBC, has a 4-page article on the Goodwin Champions (N162)
set that I wrote; and, in it I question the existence of the Dunlap (Detroit) card. And,
I asked if anyone in the reading public can confirm this card ? I did receive several
responses.....all from serious N162 collectors, and absolutely no one has ever seen
this card.

I am sure I have had over 200 - N162 cards over the years in the constant process
of upgrading my set. And, at least 7 Dunlaps (one a color error) and after doing a
good amount of research for the above noted article, I have come to this conclusion.....

1st....This set is catalogued as an 1888 issue, I believe it is really an 1889 issue. Dunlap
was traded to Pittsburgh in 1888 and became their team Captain. Also, Beecher (FB)
was in the Yale Class of '88 and Sears (Tennis) was the National Champ that year.

2nd.....The "myth" of a Detroit card of Dunlap stems from the fact that he played
a full season with them in 1887 and I suppose (being an "1888" set) someone must
of assumed there had to be a Detroit version of Dunlap. Anyhow, that's my guess.

David....incidently, I have the A36 Album of this set and on the front cover it is
neatly inscribed in ink with a 1889 date.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Ted,

Thank You!!! That was great!!!

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Posted By: Andy Cook

Can anyone confirm the existence of W590 Spencer? I've been looking for this card for 10 years and have never seen one, or met anyone who has seen one.

Thanks,
Andy

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Posted By: David Seaborn

Brian,

Nice point about the E107's, I just love hearing about all these "phantom" cards. It would just be nice to get them off the lists.

Ted,

I agree with you 100%, and your explaination of the Dunlap (Detroit) variation making it into the guide is as plausible as any I've heard. YOu also have inspired another thread topic.

I've enjoyed this thread and wish I would have fired it up much soon and 'lurked' less. Here are my thoughts:

With regard to the T215 Pirates, I don't doubt that 90+ different specimens may have existed at one time, but they simply don't anymore. I feel guides should only use checklists of verified cards. Do we list N172's that undoubtably existed because we have N173's with that player and pose? Many have speculated on the actual number of cards for several 19th century sets (see Lew's Encyclopedia for one), but we don't list them until discovered. For the sake of consistency and so that we set collectors don't go chasing "phantom" cards for years, can't we treat all the sets with the same standards? That is to say don't list the card until it's known to the hobby.

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Posted By: Bob

I consider my T207 set complete with all variations without the "Blue C on hat" Davis which I have never seen in person, never seen offered for sale but do have a scan of what purports to be one. I am guessing it was a printer boo-boo or perhaps an alteration which got by PSA (imagine that).

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Posted By: ockday

SGC has now removed the Dunlap Detroit from the set registry..I finally have 100%

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Posted By: David Seaborn

Hey Alan, that's great news. Kudos to SGC for being so responsive, it just once again shows why so many vintage collectors like SGC. This also shows the power of this N54 board and the fact that this online vintage community can make make great contributions to the hobby!

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Posted By: John S

E254 Getz Pittsburgh which is still checklisted in some publications.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

I haven't studied the N162 set in much detail but a little knowledge of the Detroit ball club would suggest an 1888 issue.

Brouthers is shown with Detroit, a team that left the league after 1888 so I suspect no later than 1888 issue. Brouthers joined Boston for 1889.

Dunlap shown with Pittsburgh, a team he joined in 1888 after playing for Detroit in 1887.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: B.C.D

list the "possible" cards based on the same poses known to exist in accompanying sets. Nadja for example,50 cards listed and I am sure some of them do not exist though in theory they would.

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Posted By: Griffin's

Specifically, Wagner and Tinker in the Tango Egg set.

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Posted By: bobby

According to Lemke in the SCD there is only 1 Wagner, 1 Cobb, 1 Evers, 1-2 TInkers and a host of otherswith very limited population known to exist in the Tango set. Maybe he can chime in to verify.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Just ask BCD above.

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Posted By: BcD

I bought from Doug Allen for $200 and it exists.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Does the Tango Tinker use the same pose/picture as the Tango Weaver?