rarest backs

[rman444]

M131 is probably pretty close

[ValKehl]

How about these (see Leon's collection for examples)?
E135: Merchant's Bakery
W575-1: Queen City Cigar, Shotwell Mfg. Co., & Service Candy Co.

[Mountaineer]

Great knowledge and great cards in here fellas! I'm learning a bunch about cards I never knew existed!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by rman444

M131 is probably pretty close

+1

[x2drich2000]

You could probably add each of the w554 red printed back variations as well.

DJ

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

How about these (see Leon's collection for examples)?
E135: Merchant's Bakery
W575-1: Queen City Cigar, Shotwell Mfg. Co., & Service Candy Co.

Merchants Bakery is very rare but in the near future it won't make the list.

[Wite3]

If you are going by percentage (less than 1% total population of cards) then you are going to have to add T205 Hindu, Drum, Broadleaf (both colors), American Beauty (both colors)...all appear on less than 1% of total T205s and are considered rare backs.

Joshua

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Wite3

If you are going by percentage (less than 1% total population of cards) then you are going to have to add T205 Hindu, Drum, Broadleaf (both colors), American Beauty (both colors)...all appear on less than 1% of total T205s and are considered rare backs.

Joshua

Hi Joshua, I *think* the OP is going for <1% AND total population of around 50 or less.

[MMarvelli]

Originally Posted by Leon

Merchants Bakery is very rare but in the near future it won't make the list.

Teaser...

[ullmandds]

e92 red crofts candy and e101/d355 niagara baking.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Wite3

If you are going by percentage (less than 1% total population of cards) then you are going to have to add T205 Hindu, Drum, Broadleaf (both colors), American Beauty (both colors)...all appear on less than 1% of total T205s and are considered rare backs.
Joshua

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I was generally trying to limit myself to cards that would make up less than 1% of the total for the cataloged set.

darwinbulldog

OK, regarding the T213-1.....I brought to your attention that they seldom appear (on any given day) on Ebay. This is your stated requirement for a back to qualify
as "rarest".
But, you dismissed this input of mine.

Now, regarding T205's......Joshua has brought to your attention your less than 1 % factor requirement for a back to qualify as "rarest".

Well, DITTO goes for the following T206 backs......

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
BROAD LEAF 460
Carolina Brights
DRUM
red HINDU
LENOX
PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42
UZIT

I have the data from a very large T206 survey which indicates that each of these backs are less than 1 % of the total T206 population.


So....are you now going to dismiss this requirement as you did for the T213-1 ? ?


TED Z
.

[Wite3]

Well it depends on what he is talking about...if it is total number of cards...
T205 Hindu and Drum fit the example comprising far less than 1% of total cards and less than 50 known examples of each currently (although that can change).

if he is talking specific cards with specific backs (lets say, Phelps Broadleaf where there are only 2-3 examples) then he has to include the others like Broadleaf and American Beauty (I think Piedmont 42 misses this list now).

Joshua

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

how about E121 with Gertenrich back ... I think there are right around 50 known (of which Rhys seems to own a good portion of!!! )

I have the Elmer Miller from this group of cards, wonder if between all of us on the board, we could make a complete set?

[mrvster]

T206 Blank Back are amongst the rarest......there are only single confirmed examples or "twins" at the most in T206(mostly southern league)......and, only 1/4 of the players approx. have been confirmed!

I love that they have flown under the radar for so many years.....they aren't even "issued cards"

I hate pointing this out, cause it ultimately makes what I'm chasing almost impossible to get, happened with scrap to me....and bb's are scrap also...

[mrvster]

btw....all your input on rarities are great! I feel bad for the other issues and super rarity, they are not just as widely collected as T206, but they do deserve the respect great input

[darwinbulldog]

Here's the updated list, but I'm still seeking input if you have any other additions or deletions to suggest.

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
E135 Merchants (soon to be disqualified?)
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Haserot's, Holmes to Homes, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W461(?) Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lucky Deal, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

Additionally, D355 qualifies as an E101 back if you think Burdick was wrong to classify it as a distinct set. Likewise, "Ty Cobb" qualifies if you think Burdick was right to classify it as a T206. (Personally I disagree with both decisions, but that's just, like, my opinion, man.)

Thank you for all the helpful suggestions and somewhat less for the antagonistic ones. For now I am including both stamped and printed backs, provided that the stamp is an ad (so owners’ stamps for personal collections don’t count). All of those that have been suggested but do not appear above do not qualify either because the back is blank, the front is too rare (e.g., D303), there is not an ACC cataloged set (e.g., Exhibit postcard back), or the back is too common (e.g., T213-1) to qualify. Others have already made this point for me, but if you think I’ve incorrectly omitted your set it may be that you're having trouble with the concept of 1% or the concept of the number 50 or the concept of the conjunction “and” or that I have a vendetta against you. Feel free to believe whichever one or combination of these is most comforting.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Here's the updated list, but I'm still seeking input if you have any other additions or deletions to suggest.

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
E135 Merchants (soon to be disqualified?)
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Haserot's, Holmes to Homes, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W461(?) Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lucky Deal, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

Additionally, D355 qualifies as an E101 back if you think Burdick was wrong to classify it as a distinct set. Likewise, "Ty Cobb" qualifies if you think Burdick was right to classify it as a T206. (Personally I disagree with both decisions, but that's just, like, my opinion, man.)

Thank you for all the helpful suggestions and somewhat less for the antagonistic ones. For now I am including both stamped and printed backs, provided that the stamp is an ad (so owners’ stamps for personal collections don’t count). All of those that have been suggested but do not appear above do not qualify either because the back is blank, the front is too rare (e.g., D303), there is not an ACC cataloged set (e.g., Exhibit postcard back), or the back is too common (e.g., T213-1) to qualify. Others have already made this point for me, but if you think I’ve incorrectly omitted your set it may be that you're having trouble with the concept of 1% or the concept of the number 50 or the concept of the conjunction “and” or that I have a vendetta against you. Feel free to believe whichever one or combination of these is most comforting.

Interesting thread...funny comments! I too agree that Burdick mis-classified cobb cobb and d355/E101 niagra.

Rock on!

[darwinbulldog]

To further clarify, it isn't that D303 per se is too rare but that it's too rare for the number of Mother's Bread cards to be less than 1%.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

T206 Old Mill (blue)

Makes Scooby sound. Huh?

The 3 rarest T206 backs, besides the Ty Cobb back, which is exclusive to the Georgia Peach himself, I thought were:

1. Brown Old Mill
2. Lennox Brown
3. Drum
3a. Broad Leaf 460 subjects

I don't remember an Old Mill blue being confirmed. Did I miss something?

[Kenny Cole]

What about Billikens with a La Moda back? Bilikens with common backs are pretty scarce themselves, but those with La Moda backs probably comprise a very small fraction of the known population -- significantly less than 10% I would guesstimate.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Makes Scooby sound. Huh?

The 3 rarest T206 backs, besides the Ty Cobb back, which is exclusive to the Georgia Peach himself, I thought were:

1. Brown Old Mill
2. Lennox Brown
3. Drum
3a. Broad Leaf 460 subjects

I don't remember an Old Mill blue being confirmed. Did I miss something?

Bill, it was slightly before your time.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=154721

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Makes Scooby sound. Huh?

The 3 rarest T206 backs, besides the Ty Cobb back, which is exclusive to the Georgia Peach himself, I thought were:

1. Brown Old Mill
2. Lennox Brown
3. Drum
3a. Broad Leaf 460 subjects

I don't remember an Old Mill blue being confirmed. Did I miss something?

Depends on what you mean by confirmed I guess. It's good enough for SGC anyway.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_130.html

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Leon

Merchants Bakery is very rare but in the near future it won't make the list.

I see what you mean, though I wouldn't expect any of them to sell at those prices. What would the asking price be if there was a Hornsby? $200,000? (34 of them just appeared on eBay for anyone who would like to take a look.)

[nolemmings]

Holmes to Homes can be deleted. Now if you want an example with no back damage then you've got a scarcity, but otherwise they are less scarce than at least a half dozen other backs from m101-4/5.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

how about E121 with Gertenrich back ... I think there are right around 50 known (of which Rhys seems to own a good portion of!!! )

Don't all known copies have the same paper loss on the back?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ZachS

Don't all known copies have the same paper loss on the back?

not all but the vast majority..(this is one has Walker on the front and is an SGC 40 holder)

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I see what you mean, though I wouldn't expect any of them to sell at those prices. What would the asking price be if there was a Hornsby? $200,000? (34 of them just appeared on eBay for anyone who would like to take a look.)

Those are some pretty healthy prices, very tough cards to find though.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

how about E121 with Gertenrich back ... I think there are right around 50 known (of which Rhys seems to own a good portion of!!! )

You called me Rhys... I am forever wounded!

I'm just kidding even my mother calls us the wrong name more often than not!

Of the 12-15 or so Lou Gertenrich cards only one is damage free on the back (Joe Sewell).

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by Leon

not all but the vast majority..(this is one has Walker on the front and is an SGC 40 holder)

Ah... I just remember seeing a bunch posted somewhere (here probably) and they all seemed to have the same back damage like they all came from a scrapbook.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Of the 12-15 or so Lou Gertenrich cards only one is damage free on the back (Joe Sewell).

So we can say that a Gertenrich without back damage is an extremely rare back...

[darwinbulldog]

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
M101-4/5 Everybody's, Haserot's, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W461 Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

[nolemmings]

I hate to be a pest, but using your criteria from post #32, you should delete m101-4 Everybody's too, as more than 50 examples exist. Also, I am among those who have yet to acknowledge Haserot's as a true back variation, FWIW.

As for Gertenrich, I'll leave the populations for others to report, but I too have a Walker SGC 40 that has no back damage. If you are declaring it scarce only when it has no back damage, then you'd better re-add Holmes to Homes as well, for although the pop reports show 70 graded, only nine of those are better than poor.

[darwinbulldog]

That's not being a pest at all; this is the feedback I want. I don't care about condition, so Holmes to Homes stays off the list. Is your objection to Haserot's just that it's a stamp (which I'm okay with) as opposed to all the other tough M101-4/5 backs, or that you suspect the stamp wasn't added until many years after the card was issued?

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
M101-4/5 Haserot's, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W461 Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

[nolemmings]

Is your objection to Haserot's just that it's a stamp (which I'm okay with) as opposed to all the other tough M101-4/5 backs, or that you suspect the stamp wasn't added until many years after the card was issued?

Good question. I think I'll go with "no comment".

[DaveW]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

That's not being a pest at all; this is the feedback I want. I don't care about condition, so Holmes to Homes stays off the list. Is your objection to Haserot's just that it's a stamp (which I'm okay with) as opposed to all the other tough M101-4/5 backs, or that you suspect the stamp wasn't added until many years after the card was issued?

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
M101-4/5 Haserot's, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
T216 Virginia Extra
W461 Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

First, I'm pleasantly surprised to see the R316 Douglas Park cards on this list, since I own a couple of them. But they really are just a stamp on the back on a regular card. How are they different from the T206 with the Howe McCormack stamp or the F stamp? If I stamp "Dave" on the back of a card, is it now on the rare back list? I think that I would only call it a "back" if it was printed on and not stamped (although how would you tell the difference sometimes?)

[rman444]

M131?

I am also pretty sure that there are more than 50 virginia extra examples out there.

[darwinbulldog]

M131 could go in the same category as D355; you can put it on your list if you reject Burdick's decision to catalog it as a set. Otherwise you have 100% of them with the rare back instead of less than 1%.

The difference is in the other issue that has been raised, stamping vs. printing. Let me explain my choice to include stamped backs, or rather, some of them, as I may not have been sufficiently thorough when I first addressed it. This part admittedly is a bit subjective, but I've arrived at what I think is a reasonable method of classification. Others surely will disagree. My thinking is influenced by some of the same criteria that folks in the hobby apply in deciding whether or not something should be considered a baseball card at all. Was it intended for public distribution? Was it used to advertise a particular product?

I don't think old Howe, or Gilliam, or F, or Jeff himself stamped a card as a means of growing his brand. They stamped their cards in the same way that people used to stamp their books, for identification of the owner's personal inventory. If, on the other hand, I were to stamp a card:

"Sal's Sno-Balls
Metairie Rd.
---------------------
One of 50 Pictures
Of Base Ball Players
Of the American
And National Leagues"

or something like that and give out those cards one summer to every customer who purchases a particular product, then I've created a new type of card. I submit that this is true whether I also own the printing press for the cards and the negatives for the photos that were used on them or, alternatively, if I'm just using pre-existing images for my cards or pre-existing cards for my ad.

That's just hypothetical, and I wouldn't place a premium on a card that was created in that way today using strip cards from the 1920s, but if they were created during a window of time in which the original unstamped card was still being actively distributed, then I would classify it as a different back for that set.

What if it was stamped a year later? A decade later? There's no clear right answer to me, but as a rule I would say it's period stamping as long as the players in the set were still active. And I think there are people who can tell if a card was stamped before or after it became heavily worn, so I would defer to their input if there are examples of stamps on prewar cards that might have been added in, say, 1986.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rman444

I am also pretty sure that there are more than 50 virginia extra examples out there.

That does seem probable. I'll remove them for the next update.

[darwinbulldog]

E92 Croft’s (red)
E98 Old Put
E121 Kings, Gertenrich
E135 Merchant's (back from the dead)
M101-4 Haserot's, Mall Theater
R316 Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto
T205 Hindu, Drum
T206 Old Mill (brown), Lenox (brown)
T207 Red Cross
T213-3 Overprint
W461 Playland
W514 Hendler's, Barker
W515 Fleer, Jersey
W551 Wool's
W554 Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners, Bonemery
W573/E120 Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings, Leader Theatre
W575-1 Johnson, Haffner's, Clark's, Gassler's, Leader Theatre, Queen City, Shotwell, Service Candy

T206 Ty Cobb (but not D355) is included if you follow the letter of the Burdick law.
D355 (but not T206 Ty Cobb) is included if you follow the spirit of the Burdick law.
M131 is debatable, but I'm with Burdick on this one, so I'm leaving it off the list.

[nolemmings]

Just as a point of clarification, you can delete the m101-5 reference, bacause Mall Theatre is a strictly m101-4 set, as is Haserot's, if you're inclined to include it.

[edjs]

I was reading through this today, and it made me think about the D310s with the Aldon Candy and the ones with the Pacific Coast Biscuit stamps on the back. Would these meet the criteria, since the stamps are period?

Also, I wanted to bring this thread back, as it is quite informative for those that haven't read it yet.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks for dredging up this old thread edjs...missed it on the first go around. Very informative, and I was racking my brain to come up with any more additions, but none yet. I am more of a front/common back collector, so only have 3 rare card back examples that are listed: W515 Fleer, W575-1 Gassler's Bread, and W575-1 Haffner's.

The Aldon Candy D310 is a neat card, but not sure if it qualifies...

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Just noticed that W575-1 Henry Johnson is on the list, which might allow the D310 Aldon Candy to squeak in as a contemporaneously stamped card. I have 7 Henry Johnson W575-1 cards, a fact that by itself might just knock it off this list, as I assume there are probably at least another 44 HJ's out there, and I didn't go on a hunting expedition to locate these over the years.

Brian

[Eggoman]

Even though you broke my heart when you removed Greiner's Bread from your list, I decided to post pix of mine ANYWAY!

After all, with TWO different ones, I have one of the LARGEST COLLECTIONS of them in the known world!

[BobC]

I've got two more possible candidates to nominate for your list.

What about Helmar backed S-74-1 white silks. You can find S-74 silks all over Ebay but, I've heard you can probably count the number of Helmar backed S-74-1s on the fingers of one hand. There are also Red Sun backed S-74-1 white silks which are probably less than 1% of the total number of white version silks out there but, there are likely hundreds, if not possibly a couple thousand, that are out there so they probably don't count.

My other candidate would be the 1921 Herpolsheimer's cards. They're basically the W575-1 blank-backed strip cards. Though I believe there are something like only 68 of these cards known to exist in total, they are limited to only one known example for each different player. Your call on that.

Bob

[darwinbulldog]

Hey guys,

I do need to do an updated list for this. Too busy at the moment, but I'll try to get it up next week. Anyway, I'm happy to see the thread getting some attention again, as I think it's a good primer for aspiring type card collectors.

[TUM301]

Not sure if they qualify for the list, but I seem to come across 1 maybe 2 a year of E 107`s with the over print back while cruising through sites and auctions. Seem to recall seeing one 107 Type ll with the over print posted on a Net 54 thread, but could be mistaken. Good topic !!

[ValKehl]

I question whether the frequently seen purple Henry A. Johnson back-stamped W575-1 cards are sufficiently rare to be included on this list. However, there is a different, light-blue HAJ back-stamped W575-1 that I believe to be quite rare. Examples of both appear below.
Val

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I question whether the frequently seen purple Henry A. Johnson back-stamped W575-1 cards are sufficiently rare to be included on this list. However, there is a different, light-blue HAJ back-stamped W575-1 that I believe to be quite rare. Examples of both appear below.
Val

I have seen some fake Henry Johnson backs but that green one looks real. I don't think I have seen that variety before. We will have to get Al C's take on it.

[ullmandds]

This hobby sure is "curious"...how most rubber stamps on the back of cards knock down the grade and the value...even if placed by their original owner.

And on the other hand...cards like the henry johnson's...were likely distributed as blank backs, just like the others stamped by their owners, and then were stamped by the purveyor to aid in advertising and given away are coveted, rare and valuable.

As they like to say in Cambodia...same same...but different!

Can anyone say..."toy town!"