FAKE packs and an FBI Fraud Investigation: What would YOU do?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan can you give a synopsis for those of us who would rather jump in a lake than wade through 50 CU threads?

Peter,

I'm still trying to wrap my head around all that's going on with these snippets of information.

Like Dan Bretta said, it appears that 1973 Topps cello with a Mike Schmidt rookie was resealed with a newer wrapper from the mid-70s. That discussion took place in 2010 and nothing serious came of it since the thread went on to grow to a 127 pages through 2012.

If you look at post #73 on this thread, there are links to a CU Thread where StarPaxMan is showing off an impressive selection of cellos. Unfortunately, the Google Cache feature didn't capture all the comments on the last several pages, but there was an open discussion even as late as last night regarding these cello packs as being "questionable".

I guess the only connection between the two CU threads is that authenticating cellos is allegedly a losing battle.

[dzolot]

I have an idea! Ask fellow hobbyists to "donate" money to your cause. Your cause is to collect enough money to reimburse you for the fake packs that you will open on youtube and expose as fakes. In your videos which I am sure will get thousands of views, you can solicit more money to rip/ reveal more bogus packs. Gets u out of your predicament, helps the hobby and all is documented for the FBI report : )

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by dzolot

I have an idea! Ask fellow hobbyists to "donate" money to your cause. Your cause is to collect enough money to reimburse you for the fake packs that you will open on youtube and expose as fakes. In your videos which I am sure will get thousands of views, you can solicit more money to rip/ reveal more bogus packs. Gets u out of your predicament, helps the hobby and all is documented for the FBI report : )

I like your suggestion, but you do need to put your name on your posts in this thread. Nothing personal...it's your first post and you probably didn't know that was a rule here in threads like this. Thanks!

[HRBAKER]

Makes me glad I collect autographs rather than graded cell packs with stars on top, .....oh, wait

Makes me glad I collect high-end graded cards rather than cello packs with stars on top, .....oh, wait

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

I believe the Schmidt thread was brought up because Jose used that cello as his impetus to begin manufacturing his own. My take was that the Schmidt cello infuriated him and he set out on a quest to prove to the hobby just how easy it was to fake unopened cello packs (aka, making straight cash homie!)

[pepis]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

I believe the Schmidt thread was brought up because Jose used that cello as his impetus to begin manufacturing his own. My take was that the Schmidt cello infuriated him and he set out on a quest to prove to the hobby just how easy it was to fake unopened cello packs (aka, making straight cash homie!)

I didn't get infuriated, but it did botter me specially when he did trow Paul
under the bus sort of speak Paul wasn't a close friend but he was sombody
that many times came over to compare notes when he saw me set-up
at some shows, however it was what i saw in the net that didn't look right,
all my friends told me to just look the other way, that i couldn't win
against a big company, most people don't have any idea how big this is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jose -- since obviously you are willing to talk about this, could you just take it from the top and explain what's going on? It's very hard to follow.

[RGold]

Peter, I like your new avatar. Rope-a-dope for you is quite afropos.

[tsalem]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jose -- since obviously you are willing to talk about this, could you just take it from the top and explain what's going on? It's very hard to follow.

+1

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jose -- since obviously you are willing to talk about this, could you just take it from the top and explain what's going on? It's very hard to follow.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[dzolot]

Didn't know the rule. I am dzolot - im on the cu boards and over 100k views on youtube for my vintage cards under dzolot - look me up and enjoy the videos!!!

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by dzolot

Didn't know the rule. I am dzolot - im on the cu boards and over 100k views on youtube for my vintage cards under dzolot - look me up and enjoy the videos!!!

That's a cool name. Unfortunately my parents gave me a first, middle, and last name. I'm such a loser.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by dzolot

Didn't know the rule. I am dzolot - im on the cu boards and over 100k views on youtube for my vintage cards under dzolot - look me up and enjoy the videos!!!

That is great.....100K views!! Wow thats pretty good. Now please post your name as the rules indicate like the rest of us have to do.

Thank you.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jose -- since obviously you are willing to talk about this, could you just take it from the top and explain what's going on? It's very hard to follow.

The story is long, 2 years in the making and an additional few more years in reasearch with plenty of graphic evidence i can only post here with Leon's ok.

I know how Erin Brockovich felt as I am now the Star Pack Environmental Activist.

Pepe

[mcadams]

Awful how you keep referring to yourself as a hero. Unless there was a con artist who faked sports memorabilia items somewhere in the Erin Brokovich movie.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pepis

The story is long, 2 years in the making and an additional few more years in reasearch with plenty of graphic evidence i can only post here with Leon's ok.

I know how Erin Brockovich felt as I am now the Star Pack Environmental Activist.

Pepe

It is, and always has been, the policy of this board to allow almost anything to be said, per the rules, as long as your name is by your post. As long as that is your real name, fire away. It's worth repeating that whatever anyone says in this forum they are legally liable for. That being said as long as you speak the truth, and are not breaking the law, you should never have anything to worry about. Of if you are breaking the law, and want to fess up, well, that is your right too. Someone called me on the phone a few hours ago asking about posting a thread talking about the biggest fraudsters in the hobby. I said I recommend against it, but as long as everyone has their full name in each post (mandatory) then so be it. I did recommend against it as I think it would be ugly, but I didn't say "no".

[Matthew H]

A "biggest fraudsters" thread would be great. Sure it would get ugly, but if someone in the hobby is ripping people off they deserve to be bashed in any and every way possible, IMO.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by pepis

The packs that i was involved directly in altering that graded
are still in my posetion,, i call them proof and think only 12 people will see'm

Why is he still on this forum?

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

A "biggest fraudsters" thread would be great. Sure it would get ugly, but if someone in the hobby is ripping people off they deserve to be bashed in any and every way possible, IMO.

If you are talking about "Fraudsters" in the sportscard hobby industry, I highly doubt many on this board would go there....LOL. some of the people that would be "outed" are members of this board I dare say, and many on this board buy from these people and actually let themselves be ripped of time and time again 'cause "they just have to get that card". Meanwhile crooked dealer laughs as he transfers a small % of cash to his shill accounts PAYPAL addresses, and then deposits the rest in his bank account. Card collecting is a dying hobby and dealers such as the ones discussed lately are killing it faster. In 1997 there were 8 baseball card related shops in my smallish town. In 2007 there were none. Today there are none...
If you don't think there is MASSIVE fraud on Ebay you are in denial. I harken back to a post about flea marketers and cards that am pretty sure I made on this board in 2007 . I personally witnessed a SHILL MILL in operation in Warren County Ohio back then. 10 people 30 ebay accounts , all bidding on their employers and friends of their employers auctions around the country. back then it wasn't just sportscards they were shilling either, it was jewelry, antiques, cars, boats, game systems, etc.... you name it they will sell it.


- end of line

[mcadams]

Originally Posted by T206DK

Card collecting is a dying hobby and dealers such as the ones discussed lately are killing it faster.

If you want to see the next generation of card buyers in action, go to blowoutcards.com and spend a week or two there. There are tons of kids, and I do mean kids, doing B/S/T on modern. None of those kids post here because they don't have interests in Tobacco-era now, but as those mostly teenage and 20-something collectors advance, some will develop interests in vintage as well. The avenues of trade have changed for sure, but collecting is not dying.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Why is he still on this forum?

Why do you ask? You may be right, but it's not clear to me so far. Please explain.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Why is he still on this forum?

Because he puts his name on his posts, and we are not judge and jury. Do you have information that we should have?

[Goodsport40]

So has Jose ever explained this whole thing as requested?

If so I missed the explanation.

[MBMiller25]

f you want to see the next generation of card buyers in action, go to blowoutcards.com and spend a week or two there. There are tons of kids, and I do mean kids, doing B/S/T on modern. None of those kids post here because they don't have interests in Tobacco-era now, but as those mostly teenage and 20-something collectors advance, some will develop interests in vintage as well. The avenues of trade have changed for sure, but collecting is not dying.

Maybe it isn't, but I can only speak for myself when I say, I have sold almost $100,000 in collectibles since October of last year, due the fraud and corruptness in this hobby and outside of ripping my own wax packs and maybe buying Mint 80's rookies that brought me joy as a kid (who would Dr. $10 cards?) I am done with this hobby. No more week long National trips, no more going to card shows, no more of my money being circulated within the industry. I was never a heavy weight, and don't want to come off as being some high roller, but I did contribute a lot of money annually into this hobby. I used to own some difficult high graded post war cards, and that's all over. So say what you want about collecting not dying, but the hobby is nowhere near healthy enough to absorb collectors leaving the hobby, due to the corruptness that exists everywhere. There are some great people in this hobby, but there is also a bunch of scum (my word), that operate as Promotors, 3rd party graders, Auction Houses, Dealers, EBAY Consignors, etc, that allow their greed to potentially jeopardize a long standing hobby, and great memories for many of us. For that I say KARMA is a Bitch!

Jose, As someone that purchased 5 or so graded packs from you, I find no humor in what you did, nor do I view you a hero, irregardless whether I bought fake packs or not.

Originally Posted by MBMiller25

Maybe it isn't, but I can only speak for myself when I say, I have sold almost $100,000 in collectibles since October of last year, due the fraud and corruptness in this hobby and outside of ripping my own wax packs and maybe buying PSA 9 80's rookies that brought me joy as a kid (who would Dr. $10 cards?) I am done with this hobby. No more week long National trips, no more going to card shows, no more of my money being circulated within the industry. I was never a heavy weight, and don't want to come off as being some high roller, but I did contribute a lot of money annually into this hobby. I used to own some difficult high graded post war cards, and that's all over. So say what you want about collecting not dying, but the hobby is nowhere near healthy enough to absorb collectors leaving the hobby, due to the corruptness that exists everywhere. There are some great people in this hobby, but there is also a bunch of scum (my word), that operate as Promotors, 3rd party graders, Auction Houses, Dealers, EBAY Consignors, etc, that allow their greed to potentially jeopardize a long standing hobby, and great memories for many of us. For that I say KARMA is a Bitch!

Jose, As someone that purchased 5 or so graded packs from you, I find no humor in what you did, nor do I view you a hero, irregardless whether I bought fake packs or not.

Corruption is just a fact of life, as is greed and fraud. That's why it's important for the people who are a credit to the hobby to stand their ground and fight back.

People will fall on both sides of the conflict, and it's sad to see Matt go.

Maybe Matt, and others, will find inspiration to come back when they see those who do bad be held accountable for their actions.

[HRBAKER]

Corruption is a fact of life, but IMO this hobby seems to attract a disproportionate amount of people who are allergic to an honest day's work.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Why do you ask? You may be right, but it's not clear to me so far. Please explain.

Dan I was asking because he has admitted to faking packs. I really do not buy the Robin Hood story of trying to uncover the crooked PSA authenticator. I think he wanted to know if his packs could get past PSA and they did. I believe he sent them not to help the hobby, but to make more money in a crooked business. How would I know how to fake packs and get them past PSA if I were not in a crooked business. I do not think faking packs is a normal hobby for an honest hobbyist.

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Because he puts his name on his posts, and we are not judge and jury. Do you have information that we should have?

No Dan just asking a question and you answered it to my satisfaction thanks.

[CharleyBrown]

Corruption has been a part of this hobby for a very long time... in different forms, no doubt, but it has always been here - just as it’s been a part of sports.

It seems as if its a disproportionate because the hobby is a strong focus of our lives. Many of has have a lot vested in it in terms of $, time, and passion, so naturally everything seems greater than it is.

As a teacher, I can tell you that the education system is equally corrupt..

I’m sure other hobbies deal with the same.

If corruption is driving u out, maybe u were in too deep with the hobby to begin with...

Spend time with family, and do other things that don’t involve the hobby.

Matt, to be honest - I think this hobby still means something to you, as you’re still here posting after having sold off much of your collection.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by MBMiller25

Maybe it isn't, but I can only speak for myself when I say, I have sold almost $100,000 in collectibles since October of last year, due the fraud and corruptness in this hobby and outside of ripping my own wax packs and maybe buying Mint 80's rookies that brought me joy as a kid (who would Dr. $10 cards?) I am done with this hobby. No more week long National trips, no more going to card shows, no more of my money being circulated within the industry. I was never a heavy weight, and don't want to come off as being some high roller, but I did contribute a lot of money annually into this hobby. I used to own some difficult high graded post war cards, and that's all over. So say what you want about collecting not dying, but the hobby is nowhere near healthy enough to absorb collectors leaving the hobby, due to the corruptness that exists everywhere. There are some great people in this hobby, but there is also a bunch of scum (my word), that operate as Promotors, 3rd party graders, Auction Houses, Dealers, EBAY Consignors, etc, that allow their greed to potentially jeopardize a long standing hobby, and great memories for many of us. For that I say KARMA is a Bitch!

Jose, As someone that purchased 5 or so graded packs from you, I find no humor in what you did, nor do I view you a hero, irregardless whether I bought fake packs or not.

Ditto for me. I'm not completely out of the hobby, but I'm spending about 3% of what I did when I was extremely active in the PSA registry. The pervasive corruption in this hobby is staggering.

I have nothing good or bad to say about Jose since there isn't clear, concise understanding about what has happened.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Dan I was asking because he has admitted to faking packs. I really do not buy the Robin Hood story of trying to uncover the crooked PSA authenticator. I think he wanted to know if his packs could get past PSA and they did. I believe he sent them not to help the hobby, but to make more money in a crooked business. How would I know how to fake packs and get them past PSA if I were not in a crooked business. I do not think faking packs is a normal hobby for an honest hobbyist.

Well besides admitting faking packs if you read post #57, Jose wrote:

The packs that i was involved directly in altering that graded
are still in my posetion,, i call them proof and think only 12 people will see'm

So far there's no clear proof he sold fake packs.

[Rich Klein]

All were publicized at the time.

And this is from a recent article I wrote for Sports Collectors Daily

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...ck-a-long-way/

Rich

[Wymers Auction]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Well besides admitting faking packs if you read post #57, Jose wrote:

The packs that i was involved directly in altering that graded
are still in my posetion,, i call them proof and think only 12 people will see'm

So far there's no clear proof he sold fake packs.

No problem Dan I would just agree to disagree.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Well besides admitting faking packs if you read post #57, Jose wrote:

The packs that i was involved directly in altering that graded
are still in my posetion,, i call them proof and think only 12 people will see'm

So far there's no clear proof he sold fake packs.

Dan, here is one of the samples, this packs top (Willie) card has a nasty
gum stain on back, and a tear that only okurs when the pack is opened,
Matt Miller and others at the CU were persistant with their offers traying
to buy it, but i couldn't sell it is an important part of my venture.
Jose

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by pepis

Dan, here is one of the samples, this packs top (Willie) card has a nasty
gum stain and a tear that only okurs when the pack is opened,
Matt Miller and others at the CU were persistant with their offers traying
to buy it, but i couldn't sell it is an important part of my venture.
Jose

So is that just a bad/resealed pack that got graded, or is the pack altered?

[brob28]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jose -- since obviously you are willing to talk about this, could you just take it from the top and explain what's going on? It's very hard to follow.

Can you take a few minutes to explain, so we can be 100% certain of the story on this subject? I'm pretty sure we're all following along somewhat, but I'd appreciate hearing the whole story in your words.

[TNP777]

I've been trying to wrap my mind around this. Correct me if I'm wrong - Jose, are you saying you created bogus packs for the purpose of getting them past the graders at PSA (specifically Steve Hart) as an experiment to expose fraud... and are willing to risk incarceration as a result of said experiment? Am I understanding correctly?

I have to have missed something.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TNP777

I've been trying to wrap my mind around this. Correct me if I'm wrong - Jose, are you saying you created bogus packs for the purpose of getting them past the graders at PSA (specifically Steve Hart) as an experiment to expose fraud... and are willing to risk incarceration as a result of said experiment? Am I understanding correctly?

I have to have missed something.

You didn't miss anything. I think you hit the Nail on the head.

[TNP777]

Originally Posted by Leon

You didn't miss anything. I think you hit the Nail on the head.

Wow. In that case Jose's level of commitment makes CardCop look like a rank amateur.

Still shaking my head.

Wow.

[brob28]

What I can't figure out is if Jose sold any of the packs. When reading the OP, it seems to me David is saying several of these packs were sold?

Jose can you clear that up for me?

[jonincleve]

open the packs, have PSA grade them for free with their own flip 'real cards opened from fake packs'

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

So is that just a bad/resealed pack that got graded, or is the pack altered?

Sample of what? A pack you bought, or a pack you created and had graded? A pack you 'got' from someone? If so, who?

Jose, your dancing around questions is evasive. Your wording of your answers, and I am ASSuming, appears intentionally spun to tell your story the way you want to tell it. Or is it because you are not quite sure how to say it, I don't know. This whole thing is just wrong.

I asked several pages back about your statement of sharing info with 12 people. If this is a thinly veiled reference to a jury, good luck. If this is a reference to a Grand Jury, what are you doing here? Either way, tell it straight or do us all a favor and take a week or so off...

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

Sample of what? A pack you bought, or a pack you created and had graded? A pack you 'got' from someone? If so, who?

Jose, your dancing around questions is evasive. Your wording of your answers, and I am ASSuming, appears intentionally spun to tell your story the way you want to tell it. Or is it because you are not quite sure how to say it, I don't know. This whole thing is just wrong.

I asked several pages back about your statement of sharing info with 12 people. If this is a thinly veiled reference to a jury, good luck. If this is a reference to a Grand Jury, what are you doing here? Either way, tell it straight or do us all a favor and take a week or so off...

Sorry, Leon. My name is Keith Temple and I cannot spell worth a d$;n on an ipad

[Griffins]

Did you not sell a large number of packs to Muggyman and others?

[TNP777]

I was wondering about Muggyman the other day. What happened to that dude?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

No problem Dan I would just agree to disagree.

I honestly don't know Jose from Shinola, but there was a former poster on this board who successfully altered cards and got them graded by PSA as an experiment. I won't pass any judgement here until we see all the facts laid out.

[1980scollector]

I bought four or five PSA graded packs from Jose when I was in my pack collecting phase.


He would be the only one that could tell you whether they were "josemade" packs or authentic.

Never doubted their authenticity because they were in PSA holders.


My packs are long gone because I jump around on my collecting and sold my entire pack collection around a year ago.

However, here is two links that might be worth a look.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-TOPPS-C...p2047675.l2557


http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...pack-309001126

[D. Bergin]

This is certainly a fascinating thread.

After reading the whole thread my take on the translation of events is as follows.

Pepis was a wax/cello pack dealer and expert. He allegedly knows the ins and outs and possibilities based on sequences and such.

Pepis submitted a number of his own packs over the years to PSA for resale purposes.

Throughout the course of time Pepis became disillusioned when he saw, what he thought were bad packs, in PSA holders.

In order to test the system himself, he rigged up a bunch of bad packs on his own. They passed at PSA. He went public with PSA's authentication short-comings, based on evidence he planted himself into the system.

Pepis kept those altered packs in his collection as evidence.

In response, PSA placed an alert on ALL packs Pepis had submitted to them over the years.........leaving collectors he had sold to, holding the bag.

I hope this is the case, and he hasn't actually sold any of his altered packs.

[pepis]

Originally Posted by TNP777

I've been trying to wrap my mind around this. Correct me if I'm wrong - Jose, are you saying you created bogus packs for the purpose of getting them past the graders at PSA (specifically Steve Hart) as an experiment to expose fraud... and are willing to risk incarceration as a result of said experiment? Am I understanding correctly?

I have to have missed something.

My original intention was to write a story about the unopened packs
corruption and that included everything the GAI/Shaqfu grocery pack thing
the x-mas racks the B.Kennert wax pack reconstracting and then the cello
pack thing showed up, here is my 1st note, i did talk to some people
about it, and then one or 2 of them alerted PSA and they called the FBI
on me about 8 months ago they told me i'm to small of a fish to fry so
i'm left trying to show the media it is a huge story.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by drmondobueno

Sample of what? A pack you bought, or a pack you created and had graded? A pack you 'got' from someone? If so, who?

Jose, your dancing around questions is evasive. Your wording of your answers, and I am ASSuming, appears intentionally spun to tell your story the way you want to tell it. Or is it because you are not quite sure how to say it, I don't know. This whole thing is just wrong.

I asked several pages back about your statement of sharing info with 12 people. If this is a thinly veiled reference to a jury, good luck. If this is a reference to a Grand Jury, what are you doing here? Either way, tell it straight or do us all a favor and take a week or so off...

I have to agree at this point. From other info I've received it seems Jose isn't the angel he makes himself out to be.

S3AN.B4SS1K