Opinion on cut signatures for sale.

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Posted By: Vanessa Phipps

I have a chance to purchase beautiful single cut signatures(so good it almost looks like postcards) of Ruth and Gehrig on separate cuts not together for $2500.00. But it gets better I think, they will through in cut signatures of Honest Wagner, Cy Young, and Ty Cobb. The whole lot for $3000. Before I get berated for not doing research, I did search the current Memory Lane auction and they all have bids well over this amount combined. Basically I am searching for advice on the purchase. Any help or opinion would be great. Thank you!
The signatures are from a close friend in my area who also happens to be a very large collector. That being said, he will give me a guarantee and I can send them to PSA for authenticity. Thank you for your input. It is greatly appreciated!!!!
I mistakenly posted this on pre war so I will give this side a shot.


Fire Houston Nutt!! But Damn hire someone already!!! Mcfadden for the Heisman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If they're coming from a friend who will give you a guarantee then you would be foolish not to buy them in my opinion. That sounds like too good of a deal to be real though.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I would avoid cut signatures entirely. The chance of all of these being good is so small it isn't worth the aggravation. I realize you have the guarantee but I am still suspicious, just my nature.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

There a are a ton of authentic cut signatures out there. If you don't feel comfortable in your own knowledge, simply buy those that are already certified by either PSA or JSA. Trust no other authenticators or COA's. They are all vastly inferior to the two mentioned.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I would say that Richard Simon is vastly superior to both JSA and PSA.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Thank you very much Dan, I will pay you later. .
Seriously, Vanessa you can write me at richsprt@aol.com if you would like my examination of these autographs. My fees are much more reasonable than JSA or PSA.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: David Davis

The only people I would trust to authenticate a sports autograph are Kevin Keating or Mike Gutierrez. IMHO, I wouldn't let JSA or PSA authenticate my own signature, even if they witnessed it.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Ques

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Regardless who the LOA is from, if it is based solely on signature/handwriting analysis, I wouldn't buy the item, period. Under such circumstances, the LOA is merely an opinion, not a statement of fact, and the leap of faith required to go with it for my tastes is simply too large.

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Posted By: David

If they're fake, and even if you do get a refund of your $3k, you'll still be out +/- $750 in authentication fees.

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Posted By: Jimmy

fees are very expensive for these players and the chance they all come back authenticated would not be worth the expense. Maybe you can just send the Ruth first and see what happens. This way if the autograph does come back okay you have value in this autograph and then can afford to take the chance on the others.

Jimmy

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Posted By: David Atkatz

"Regardless who the LOA is from, if it is based solely on signature/handwriting analysis, I wouldn't buy the item, period. Under such circumstances, the LOA is merely an opinion, not a statement of fact, and the leap of faith required to go with it for my tastes is simply too large."

A LoA from an "authenticator" is always an opinion, and never a statement of fact.
(Unless, of course, the authenticator has witnessed the signing.)

Sometimes the opinion is based on very strong evidence, sometimes not.

But it's always an opinion

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

David A. is right here. I was going to stay out of this discussion to remain impartial, but just wanted to add a couple of thoughts before returning to lurkdom, as it were:

Yes, it IS strictly an opinion that any authenticator offers. And, as such, the customer is forced to place their trust in the knowledge of someone else. Do your homework before deciding on an authentication service that meets your needs. YOUR opinion counts first and foremost, so find someone you can trust.

I for one have spent the majority of my life immersed in the study of vintage baseball autographs and feel perfectly comfortable in my knowledge of said. I do not claim to know everything on the subject, as this is an impossibility. The opportunity to expand on that knowledge is one of the main reasons I get up every day! Kevin Keating once put it best when he said something to the effect of "I would not feel comfortable authenticating a Michael Jordan ball--it's not my area of expertise." (excuse the paraphrasing). Each respectable authenticator has his own strong suits and weak areas. There are areas in which I would feel uncomfortable rendering an opinion.

Back to the issue at hand, however. To re-stress the point in my initial response to this thread, "BUYER BEWARE!". All those in-demand names for less than the price of one Ruth or Gehrig cut? The whole deal, as described, sounds terribly fishy. I think anyone here would agree.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

That's interesting, Jodi. In fine art examination training, the philosophy is similar as perhaps the number one rule is "The expert should never make up an answer when he doesn’t have one. If you don’t know, you don’t know and, considering no one knows everything, there’s nothing deficient about an expert saying he doesn’t know."

Avoid the "expert" who says his knowledge has no limits, as he's either dilusional or full of it.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Well David A, you caught me on that one!! I should have been a bit more precise in my words. Yes, all LOA's are opinions (excluding the instance you mention where the signature was witnessed by the person writing the LOA, in which case it would be a statement of fact). The point I was trying to make is that there are opinions and there are opinions. A LOA that is based not only on signature/handwriting analysis but also on, say, strong provenance and chemical analysis of the ink and paper, means a great deal more than one based solely on signature/hanwriting analysis. Or, to put it another way, if black is the color of a statement of fact, then the shade of gray of such a LOA could be such a dark charcol as to, for all PRACTICAL purposes, be the equivalent of a statement of fact. Such LOA's to me if coming from a reputable knowledgable source would sufficiently shrink the leap of faith that the item is good to a level where I would be comfortable acquiring the item. If, in contrast, the LOA is based solely on handwriting/signature analysis (with no provenance, no chemical analysis and no other corroborating evidence), then I would not be comfortable acquiring the piece, regardless who the LOA came from.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I wasn't trying to give you a hard time, Corey. I'm just tired of the opinions of two people in particular being given so much weight in the hobby. (Especially by people who don't do their homework.)
And these same two seem to have unlimited knowledge, as well.

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Posted By: DJ

David, did Jodi used to work for one?

IMO, (my two cents)...I agree whole heartedly with Jodi in regards to a person cannot be an expert on everything and this is the number one issue I have in this business. Many factors go into being a good authenticator and educating yourself and having a good eye is key. It's just too bad there is so much sloppiness with the good guys and so many "I'll pass anything" authenticators exist who think they are doing a duty by creating an opinion that isn't valid. It's like going to a doctor that says your dying and therefore you look for a doctor that will tell you the news you want to hear.

The problem I see in the business is that there is so much bad publicity of late with "the big two" that is constantly addressed by sites who look for errors to announce to the world that these companies aren't "high and mighty".

For many, the JSA video made the entire business look foolish. The brashness of the authenticator and the two seconds they spent on each item, to go along with the numbers reported on in the Bill Daniels trial of how much stuff is authenticated in such a short time. Can you really be accurate doing so much volume in such a short amount of time?

Also, Jodi, there are many times that authenticating teams are split, like Jimmy will in NJ and someone else will be at a store say in NY. What if Jimmy or yourself (or someone else) was asked to authenticate a Richard Nixon on site. Then what?

IMO, I still trust JSA and PSA/DNA above the rest. But what other options do we have?

DJ

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Posted By: David Atkatz

How about the top story (December 10) here:

http://www.autographalert.com/news.html

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

In regards to the Nixon question posed by DJ:

I have a pretty good handle on presidential items, but, if need be, both JSA and PSA employ the expertise of John Reznikoff at University Archives for his opinion on historical items. Both companies also outsource autographs from other fields to people who have spent their lives learning about those areas like we spent our lives immersed in our areas of proficiency. There are consultants for presidential/historical, entertainment (vintage and modern), music, Japanese baseball, and even individuals who specialize in just one person (such as a man named Frank Kukla, who is considered to be one of, if not THE most knowledgable people in regards to the evolution of Muhammed Ali's signature). Believe me (and I can only speak for the time when I was employed by Spence), the authentication team at JSA did all it could to ensure that its customers were getting the best, most thorough service possible.

To answer your other question (when two different auth. teams were at different sites on the same day): EVERY full LOA item exmained by JSA is viewed by EVERY authenticator on staff. High-res images are taken of each item so that authenticators not present at the initial time of examination can render their personal score [on a scale of +2 (pass with flying colors) to -2 (outright terrible)]. In some cases, where an item asks more questions than it answers (such as a baseball with possible signature removals), said item is brought back to the office so that the entire JSA staff can examine it together, look at it under the high-tech video spectral comparator, and then have a group discussion about everyone's feelings regarding the item. Trust me, it's not as bad as that news report made it out to be.

This is all I plan on answering to in regards to my old job. I have far more improtant business matters to deal with right now, and it's not as if I'm being paid to stick up for my old employer. If you have more questions, why not ask JSA yourselves? The website is www.spenceloa.com.

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Posted By: davicycle

Does this news report ever say anything nice about anything? Or is their whole point in life to complain? There's nothing wrong with confiding about your troubles once in a while, but there's nothing more annoying in a person than constant criticizing and complaining. You don't use constant complainers as reliable sources for information, you avoid eye contact with them at parties.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I've had items collected myself rejected by these services and I've had items I had great doubts about authenticated, so objectively, of course all you are buying is an opinion that might not be right. That isn't the point. A cert from PSA/DNA or JSA takes an item that might be real and gives it a guarantee that many buyers in the market for these items will accept without question. If you have the item authenticated and encapsulated you can be sure in the foreseeable future that there is a large, well defined audience of people who will buy it from you. Richard (Hi Richard) may be the most knowledgeable guy out there but if you are looking to make the item into a no-questions-asked commodity then you have to go with one of the big commercial enterprises like PSA/DNA. If it was me, I would make the deal contingent on the Ruth passing PSA/DNA and being encapsulated in one of their holders.

Of course my own view is that cut sigs just aren't fun to have. I would hold out and save my shekels for a check.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Jodi - are you referring to the same John Reznikoff who sold numerous JFK signed items for which the scam artist who forged them went to prison?
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Richard Simon

All those who believe in PSA should click the link in David Atkatz's post and read the story where they mis-identified a simple Clem Labine autograph.
I just checked the Better Business Bureau website and they give PSA - DNA a rating of D. There is only one grade lower than that.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Richard,

Every autograph dealer has made at least one mistake in his career. We both know that. Let's not start a flame war.

Jodi

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Jodi - I certainly don't want to start a flame war with someone I respect, and we all certainly make mistakes, but there are documented mistakes made by PSA on my website and the autograph alert website, that should never have been made. Authenticating autopens, authenticating facsimile sigs as real sigs and many more. Not just opinions of good or bad but really careless mistakes.

--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: DJ

I thank you Jodi for answering my question, but I feel a need to delve more into something you wrote, if you don't mind.

I have been to these in-person authentications and if I approach you with a Michael Jordan (Nixon wasn an example), a high resolution scan will be sent out to your "Jordan-expert" and in a timely fashion, an opinion on his end will come forth in a short time to tell the buyer that he either has something of value or he has been slighted.

Also, if you think the Sal Bando thing wasn't a big deal, it's like saying that today was just another day in baseball.

I really like what Autograph Alert does, even though it focuses primarily on the evil aspect of the business. My only problem with them is that there are MUCH, MUCH WORSE authenticators that don't get mentioned at all.

If you don't want to be part of Autograph Alert, don't make stupid mistakes. Plain and simple.

DJ

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Like I said, I am done answering queries about this. Feel free to give my former employer a call.

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Posted By: DJ

You introduce yourself to this Forum, which is a place where people communicate and share.

If Jimmy came here and introduced himself, I would go to him with my questions.

You are a close link to the situation and have the answers. If you don't want to give them, that's fine.

But it appears to me that the only reason you will utilize this Forum is to benefit your new venture and try and make deals with the Forum members.

Good luck with it all!

DJ

edit: grammar

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Thanks DJ for your well wishes! Good luck to you, too!

Jodi