Chances for Re-grading at SGC

[GregMitch34]

I have almost never gone for a grade review or even a cross-over so I am wondering: Taking a guess, and assuming what seems like a fairly good shot, what percentage of re-grades (in positive direction) do you seem to get at SGC? Is it always more likely if it's a crossover because they don't have to admit an "error"?

And for same reason--is it not wise to submit more than one at time, as they are unlikely to admit more than one error even if you send in a half dozen good candidates?

[brewing]

PSA breakouts, I have had grades stay same or up 1. Of course I'm cautious of the cards I send.
BVG breakouts, 20% of time grade stays the same, other 80% the grade has dropped 1.

I tried 1 regrade but was unsuccessful.

[RGold]

In the last 5 years I have submitted about 3,000 cards to SGC, about 2,000 being crossovers from PSA. FWIW, my experience has been the following:

Crossovers from PSA holders, depending on the type of card, run about 60% crossing at the same grade, 10% half point bumps, 2% full point bump. Over a quarter of the cards did not crossover. Either those cards did not meet SGC standards, showed evidence of trimming, or SGC could not see the edges in the holder sufficiently to give a grade. The vast majority were not crossed for the first reason.

SGC cards with the old holders and labels (non guaranteed cards) crossed over at the same grade about 50% of the time, and I cannot recall ever getting a bump in grade. SGC cards with current holders and labels (guaranteed cards) received very few bumps. Note that these were SGC 60 and higher where SGC has already had grades reflecting a half point, SGC 70,80,86,92. I would expect submitting lower graded cards, SGC 50 and below, would result in more bumps because half grades were not always available until recently at these levels.

If your question is alluding to reviews and not crossovers, I would expect a very low rate of bumps. You are in fact asking SGC if they under graded the card. You would probably have more success getting cards reviewed in person where you could lobby for your position. Again, most of your successes will come with lower graded cards where the half point bump didnt exist before.

I am somewhat bothered by the fact that you mentioned you had a group of cards that you thought should be bumped. I am not aware that you have any special expertise in grading cards. I could be wrong.

I would also mention, that the times i have felt a card was under graded by SGC, I broke the cards out and resubmitted them at a later date. I was always amazed that SGC graded them right at the same grade as before. I know many will give exceptions, but that has been my experience.

Remember the axiom, that over time, every card will eventually reside in the highest grade holder possible. In other words, assume that any card you buy has already been reviewed and resubmitted by the previous owners who like you want higher grades.

[bobbyw8469]

Remember the axiom, that over time, every card will eventually reside in the highest grade holder possible. In other words, assume that any card you buy has already been reviewed and resubmitted by the previous owners who like you want higher grades.

I agree with everything but this. Sometimes it is not cost feasible to crack cards out and pay the company again to grade the same card again. Sure, I have had cards that I thought were undergraded (same as everyone else, I am sure). Instead, I just put them up for sale, make a comment that the card appears to be undergraded and move on. Everyone has eyes, and I include big scans. They get bid up to where they need to be (not always, but usually).

[RGold]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I agree with everything but this. Sometimes it is not cost feasible to crack cards out and pay the company again to grade the same card again. Sure, I have had cards that I thought were undergraded (same as everyone else, I am sure). Instead, I just put them up for sale, make a comment that the card appears to be undergraded and move on. Everyone has eyes, and I include big scans. They get bid up to where they need to be (not always, but usually).

An axiom is a premise or starting point of reasoning. Yes, it is most likely that not every single card will be graded over and over again. Sheesh.

[GregMitch34]

Sorry to ask again but didn't get much specific feedback--what are odds of getting even a small bump in submitting mid-grade (and seemingly, I say seemingly, ungraded) cards to SGC for review, not crossover? What's your experience? One in five or one in ten or one in 50?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Sorry to ask again but didn't get much specific feedback--what are odds of getting even a small bump in submitting mid-grade (and seemingly, I say seemingly, ungraded) cards to SGC for review, not crossover? What's your experience? One in five or one in ten or one in 50?

My guess is about a 20% review bump of a half grade. I haven't done many crossovers so don't know on those. But I only get cards reviewed that are high end for the grade. I haven't done it too often.

[smtjoy]

I would say 1 in 5 is about what i have seen with mid to lower grade having a better chance than higher grade for a bump. Remember you are basically asking the same grader if they made a mistake so not likely or they would not be doing their job. If I feel real strong on a card I also do as Ron suggested I crack and submit but I am amazed how many times they come back the same grade.

Good luck

[GregMitch34]

Sorry for basic question but can they award lower grade or say "not authentic"? If they do, do they change flip or just advise you....I know with cross overs you can say "same grade or higher" but is this true with reviews?

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Sorry for basic question but can they award lower grade or say "not authentic"? If they do, do they change flip or just advise you....I know with cross overs you can say "same grade or higher" but is this true with reviews?

Hi Greg,

I believe they reserve the right to do this...but if they do, they are effectively saying "we made a mistake that has cost you money" - ie. the "guarantee"...my understanding is that on any downgrade from one of their own holders, they either pay you the difference between the grades in cash, or offer you grading services of equal value, if you use grading services enough to make that worthwhile.

(BTW, I personally have never submitted for review at either SGC or PSA, but I have many cards that I bought before the latest half-grade scales that are definitely high-end for the grade. Sometime when I get the initiative, I'll submit a batch seeking at least 1/2 grade bumps. As others have said, these should be easier to get that a review of a recently-graded card, since the grader is not admitting a mistake...just using a more detailed grading scale now.)


Cheers,
Blair

[GregMitch34]

Hasn't SGC had the half-grade for quite some time? Or just at certain levels? For example when did it introduce SGC 45 and SGC 55?

[robw1959]

Those are the brand new ones, along with SGC 35 (2.5); the older half grade as I recall is the SGC 82 (6.5). I remember sending three T206 commons (each one graded SGC 80) in for review about a year ago. Only one of them got the half-point bump up while the other two stayed the same.

[GregMitch34]

they must have 4.5s some time back as I have a couple cards I got a year or so ago that are 4.5s....what about 3.5s? do they also go back a year or more?

[RGold]

Effective sometime mid-2012. My point was that prior to this, half grades 70, 86 and 92 already existed so to receive a bump on review on SGC 60, 84 or 88 would mean SGC recognizing a mistake which would be rare.

Receiving a bump on review for lower graded cards would be more likely given that they may have been graded before half grades existed at those levels. You can estimate when SGC cards were graded because the cert numbers are chronological not random like PSA.

NEW SGC HALF GRADES

Effective immediately, four new half grades will be available as part of the grading scale. The new grades are as follows:
SGC 35 — 2.5 GOOD+
SGC 45 — 3.5 VG+
SGC 55 — 4.5 VG/EX+
SGC 82 — 6.5 EX/NM+
For years, collectors have been asking for more options at the lower end of the scale where condition can vary greatly. These new half grades will serve to reward cards that are high-end for their grade with special attention paid to eye appeal. All cards submitted for grading will be eligible for half grades—there is no special process. Cards that are already graded by SGC may be submitted for review under any of the applicable grading fee tiers.
These grades are being added to round out the options available when it comes to assessing trading cards. They are not being added to complicate things for collectors. As such, the labels will remain the same so that consistency within a collection can be maintained and the 100 point scale will be preserved to avoid difficulties with the registry, the population reports, and other established areas.
Please feel free to call or e-mail us with any questions.

[RGold]

I should add that SGC 80 might be good to review but I found that if the card really merited a higher grade, it would have 84'd originally. Plus, there is not much incremental value unless it is an expensive card or you are looking to pad your registry numbers.


On crossovers from PSA to SGC, I have found PSA 6 to be one of the easiest grades to cross and the most likely to get bumped to SGC 84 or even higher. Nice looking PSA 6's were most likely originally submitted looking for PSA 8 and exhibited a minor paper flaw that SGC might deem to be part of the paper stock and not a flaw. Or not. I'm not an expert.

[clydepepper]

I sent what I thought was a sure 6 or 7 '56 Mantle and will be receiving a 4 in the mail...a pricey 4 at that...think I will just buy already graded cards from now on.

Back to the subject at hand, this does, at least, show that PSA standards remain high- no downslide trajectory as with SGC.

But it still hurts

[MikeU]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I sent what I thought was a sure 6 or 7 '56 Mantle and will be receiving a 4 in the mail...a pricey 4 at that...think I will just buy already graded cards from now on.

Back to the subject at hand, this does, at least, show that PSA standards remain high- no downslide trajectory as with SGC.

But it still hurts

If the grade does not fit, you must re-submit.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MikeU

If the grade does not fit, you must re-submit.

nice!

[nolemmings]

Back to the subject at hand, this does, at least, show that PSA standards remain high- no downslide trajectory as with SGC.

I wasn't aware SGC grading standards had changed, much less that they were on a "downslide trajectory". I'll resist the temptation to go into the "PSA standards remain high" portion of your statement.

[GregMitch34]

Is there any guide to approximate dating of SGC grading based on the flip serial numbers? I'm sure not exact, just rough, since it is said they did rise in order (unlike PSA). And I'm still unclear exactly when SGC went to: 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, 5.5.

[nolemmings]

I believe RGold was right when he estimated mid-2012 for the new half grades: 2.5; 3.5; 4.5 and 6.5.

SGC 20=1.5 and 70=5.5 have always been there as far as I can recall, as have SGC 86=7.5 and 92=8.5.

[RGold]

SGC cert numbers are formatted xxxxxxx-xxx, seven numbers indicating the submission and three numbers representing each card in the submission.

So, cert number 1285643-010 would indicate that the card was tenth card in the submission. All cards in the submission would have the same first seven numbers.
.
The submission numbers are generated by using the online submission form, or the submission packets include paper forms that are numbered. Or SGC may assign a submission number in some cases.

It is not an exact science because an older form may be used by a submitter who sends the cards in for grading well after the submission number has been generated.

In general though, submission numbers lower than 130xxxx or 820xxxx were used prior to mid-2012. You can also assume that the holders with the hologram on back predate mid-2012.

Another way that I date when cards were graded is that SGC flips have been notoriousy bad the last few years being miscut and not enough ink used or the cert number printed in the green border.

Someone else may have other ideas. I do not know if SGC would look up the cert numbers for you, but you might check with them. The key point is that you will have greater results if you have cards reviewed that were originally graded before mid-2012, and those in the mid grades where half grades did not exist at the time.

[GregMitch34]

Thanks for info. However, without even checking fully, I quickly found two SGC cards with serial numbers starting 126 or 128 which have the 3.5 or 4.5....

[RGold]

Read again. I give up. Good luck with your reviews.


"It is not an exact science because an older form may be used by a submitter who sends the cards in for grading well after the submission number has been generated."

[GregMitch34]

My point is that the "low" flip serial numbers don't seem to line up with others saying there were no 2.5s, 3.5s, 4.5s before 2012....

[RGold]

It was not others saying, it was me. Those half grades did not exist before mid-2012.

The submission numbers are generated online or they are on the pre-printed submission forms. They might be used at a later date. SGC assigns old unused numbers to submissions for different reasons. That is why dating when cards were graded by using the cert numbers can be useful but not 100% accurate. It's a general rule, an indication, or estimate.

You should probably just forget any suggestions I made and just send whatever you were planning on sending. The only reason I responded was because you were getting inaccurate answers to your questions. Sorry I confused you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ron, I found your posts extremely confusing.

[RGold]

Shaddup.

[steve B]

My small experience in having them look at mid grade cards again was interesting.

I asked in person at a show about two cards I thought were better than the grade, both T206s, one a 40 the other a 50.

The 50 had a tiny flake of paperloss on the corner and on the front, less than what's missing on most corner wear. ----It also had a very tiny crease on the left edge that I hadn't seen. That was what put it in the 50 category rather than higher- like maybe a 70 or 80.

The 40 turned out to have an erased pencil mark on the back. One that I had never spotted in all the time I've owned it, 30 years +

Neither would have bumped on a paid review.

I can't say about the impression the standards are slipping. The standard says a tiny crease/wrinkle is ok up to 70, but I don't recall seeing one. And of all the cards I've had graded only two get a grade I thought was high. Oddly, they are a couple of the more expensive cards I've had done, one I personally think it's a full grade high, the other maybe a bit more.
The modern stuff I've graded with them didn't do well, but isn't worth redoing.

Steve B

[glynparson]

May be reviews. Also many dealers have stacks of the preprinted sgc forms. What Ron said is correct as he stated it as a guide not a rule.

[GregMitch34]

Has anyone had the experience of getting a LOWER grade in SGC review? Do they change the flip automatically or contact you and ask if you want to un-submit? If, as they say, the grade is lower, do they really make up the difference in value, which could be hundreds or dollars on certain cards?

Again, we're talking about reviews here, not crossovers.

[ullmandds]

i cracked out an sgc graded card...re-submitted it only to have it returned to me with a lower grade...I was not happy...killed $500 in value.

[GregMitch34]

Yes, but that's different than submitting the card still in the SGC slab--so I'm still wondering if you have option of having them NOT give new lower grade and slab or you are stuck with it.

[The Nasty Nati]

Yes you can tell them to regrade. Just fill out the form and specify the minimum grade allowed aka the grade that's currently on the SGC holder. Also helps to put a sticky note on that particular slab to remind the grader of your minimum score. If it's already SGC slabbed there is now way the current grade will ever go lower (unless of course you cracked it out before sending it in to be graded).

[The Nasty Nati]

I'd also wait at least 3-4 weeks to have your cards graded by SGC. They are about to (supposedly) have new flips for their slabs really soon. The "ugly" new ones they have now are only temporary. Unless of course you want the new slabs... I guess they're kind of limited edition right now .

[toledo_mudhen]

As the cards that I look for are more plentiful in PSA Holders - I have experience with many crossover attempts (typically trying to get a PSA 7 in an SGC 84) holder.

Not as easy as one might think... I would say a 7 to 84 is at best a 50-50 proposition with rarely a bump in grade (maybe 1 in 10?). On the plus side - the PSA Holders are much easier to resell than the SGCs

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Has anyone had the experience of getting a LOWER grade in SGC review? Do they change the flip automatically or contact you and ask if you want to un-submit? If, as they say, the grade is lower, do they really make up the difference in value, which could be hundreds or dollars on certain cards?

Again, we're talking about reviews here, not crossovers.

My Experience was with an SGC60/5 T200 NY Nat'l for a review. I Believed the card was over graded! I sent it in and it came back in an SGC40/3 Holder, along with a check for $1100. During the Process, the Head Grader called me and we discussed the situation. I don't recall who I actually spoke with(it was one of 2 gentleman, but at the time he was the Head Grader!) The $1100 was for the difference in Market value at the time.

Greg, I think I know what your aiming at here. If the Card or cards in question are in older flips(Gold label), SGC likes to clean up their older Slabs and put the Cards into their Rightful Holders. I agree with them! Thus, I had No problem with my Card being reslabed into a Lower Rightful Graded Holder. And I do believe that they won't return it if it needs to be reslabed into a Lower Grade... However, I do believe that SGC will Compensate You for your market loss!

I would call them and discuss your situation with them... Can't hurt!

[GregMitch34]

Okay, if I understand this: if you submit a crossover, you can say "no grade lower than x" but with a simple review/re-grade they don't allow that and you have to live with their lower grade if you get one? But they will pay you for lost value since it was their error in the first place?

[MikeU]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Has anyone had the experience of getting a LOWER grade in SGC review? Do they change the flip automatically or contact you and ask if you want to un-submit? If, as they say, the grade is lower, do they really make up the difference in value, which could be hundreds or dollars on certain cards?

Again, we're talking about reviews here, not crossovers.

Yes. Have sent old flip slabs in for re-slabbing (OCD issues) at different times. On two difference occasions, a single card came back re-slabbed with a lower grade and a very fair grading coupon enclosed. The re-slabbed grade was more accurate. I have no issue with this and actually respect this much more than the I will never reduce your grade even when it deserves it policy i.e. wink, wink.