Current HOF election results

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by tod41

Check out what he did or didn't do in late August 2007 against the Phillies during the Mets awful collapse in 2007. The guy got the routine saves not the ones when the pressure was on. I remember him blowing a 4-0 lead against the Yankees at Shea.

So he blew ONE lead against the Yankees in May of 2006 and that means he can't get saves when the pressure is on. Never mind that his ERA against the Yankees was 0.82 outside of that one appearance. Also weird that you don't remember that he got saves in 1-run games against the Yankees the day before and after that blown one.

Yeah, he had a bad stretch at the end of August in 2007. That happens. When you cherry pick 3 or 4 games out of 850, you're going to find some bad ones. That's like saying Mariano Rivera sucked in the World Series because he blew Game 7 in 2001. Or trashing Rivera because he was horrible in 1995.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

So he blew ONE lead against the Yankees in May of 2006 and that means he can't get saves when the pressure is on. Never mind that his ERA against the Yankees was 0.82 outside of that one appearance. Also weird that you don't remember that he got saves in 1-run games against the Yankees the day before and after that blown one.

Yeah, he had a bad stretch at the end of August in 2007. That happens. When you cherry pick 3 or 4 games out of 850, you're going to find some bad ones. That's like saying Mariano Rivera sucked in the World Series because he blew Game 7 in 2001. Or trashing Rivera because he was horrible in 1995.

Well, IF we are keeping him out because of that one game, then we have to keep Andruw Jones out because of his stint with the Dodgers in 2008, where he taunted us about his abysmal stat line by walking to the plate to the song "Don't Worry, Be Happy".

Ugh.

[etsmith]

earlywynnfan, he has 3,000 hits and over 1800 runs scored. If that's not a Hall of Famer I don't know what is.

[Topnotchsy]

Many people seem to measure the Hall-of-Fame by the inner circle players. Others seem to want to throw the doors open and invite everyone in. Personally, I think there is a place somewhere in the middle. I also think that those who believe Harold Baines is the worst HOF entry have not paid attention to the players.

Dazzy Vance, Eppa Rixey, Max Carey, Tony Perez, Joe Sewell, Joe Tinker, Jimmy Collins, Elmer Flick, Nellie Fox etc are all in the Hall. It's hard to argue any of them were better than Helton, Rolen or Andruw Jones. And I could add 20 other names without much difficulty.

It also seems that some people prefer to ignore a player's position when it comes to their stats. 3B and CF are both positions that have had very few huge offensive superstars. Rolen was one of the best with a glove at 3B and a great offensive player. Jones was arguably the best defensive CF, and was a serious power hitter (albeit with a low batting average).

When it comes to relievers I understand people who prefer to measure them against pitchers of the past, and no reliever will match up. But we have had relief pitchers for roughly half a century. For me, this is enough to measure relievers against each other. I wasn't a big Wagner fan, but I'm good with him in.

Sheffield I don't know enough about the steroid considerations to comment.

If I had a vote I would probably vote for:
- Todd Helton
- Scott Rolen
- Andruw Jones
- Bobby Abreu

Also with Johan Santana was still on the ballot. I want anyone that was the 'best player in baseball' for a 5 year period to be in, almost regardless of what the rest of their career looked like. I'm glad Koufax is in, comfortable with Dizzy Dean being in, and think Santana (and someday DeGrom) should be in. Though I know this is my take on the Hall. I like high peak over extended solid performance as a general rule.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Many people seem to measure the Hall-of-Fame by the inner circle players. Others seem to want to throw the doors open and invite everyone in. Personally, I think there is a place somewhere in the middle. I also think that those who believe Harold Baines is the worst HOF entry have not paid attention to the players.

Dazzy Vance, Eppa Rixey, Max Carey, Tony Perez, Joe Sewell, Joe Tinker, Jimmy Collins, Elmer Flick, Nellie Fox etc are all in the Hall. It's hard to argue any of them were better than Helton, Rolen or Andruw Jones. And I could add 20 other names without much difficulty.

It also seems that some people prefer to ignore a player's position when it comes to their stats. 3B and CF are both positions that have had very few huge offensive superstars. Rolen was one of the best with a glove at 3B and a great offensive player. Jones was arguably the best defensive CF, and was a serious power hitter (albeit with a low batting average).

When it comes to relievers I understand people who prefer to measure them against pitchers of the past, and no reliever will match up. But we have had relief pitchers for roughly half a century. For me, this is enough to measure relievers against each other. I wasn't a big Wagner fan, but I'm good with him in.

Sheffield I don't know enough about the steroid considerations to comment.

If I had a vote I would probably vote for:
- Todd Helton
- Scott Rolen
- Andruw Jones
- Bobby Abreu

Also with Johan Santana was still on the ballot. I want anyone that was the 'best player in baseball' for a 5 year period to be in, almost regardless of what the rest of their career looked like. I'm glad Koufax is in, comfortable with Dizzy Dean being in, and think Santana (and someday DeGrom) should be in. Though I know this is my take on the Hall. I like high peak over extended solid performance as a general rule.

I agree with your thesis that people should not be using Mike Schmidt and Frank Thomas as the baseline for a hall of famer, but I have to disagree on CF. CF ranks very high among all positions for number of “huge offensive superstars”. Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Griffey, Trout, etc.

I’d also remove Jimmy Collins from the list. He was widely (almost unanimously) considered the greatest 3B until Pie Traynor, even if his numbers don’t appeal to the modern eye. He was the best of his position for a generation.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree with your thesis that people should not be using Mike Schmidt and Frank Thomas as the baseline for a hall of famer, but I have to disagree on CF. CF ranks very high among all positions for number of “huge offensive superstars”. Cobb, Speaker, DiMaggio, Mantle, Mays, Griffey, Trout, etc.

I’d also remove Jimmy Collins from the list. He was widely (almost unanimously) considered the greatest 3B until Pie Traynor, even if his numbers don’t appeal to the modern eye. He was the best of his position for a generation.

I hear what you are saying about CF'ers, though after the small number of absolute legends, thre is a pretty big dropoff. Jones is the 14th best CF by B-R WAR (if one cares about that). Most positions have far more than 14 players in the Hall.

Regarding Collins, I'm not as familiar with him, so that is good to know.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Also with Johan Santana was still on the ballot. I want anyone that was the 'best player in baseball' for a 5 year period to be in, almost regardless of what the rest of their career looked like. I'm glad Koufax is in, comfortable with Dizzy Dean being in, and think Santana (and someday DeGrom) should be in. Though I know this is my take on the Hall. I like high peak over extended solid performance as a general rule.

I'm with you on that. I value high peak over longevity as well. I'm more interested in who the best players were rather than who played the longest. Santana was an absolute murderer on the mound for several years.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Many people seem to measure the Hall-of-Fame by the inner circle players. Others seem to want to throw the doors open and invite everyone in. Personally, I think there is a place somewhere in the middle. I also think that those who believe Harold Baines is the worst HOF entry have not paid attention to the players.

Dazzy Vance, Eppa Rixey, Max Carey, Tony Perez, Joe Sewell, Joe Tinker, Jimmy Collins, Elmer Flick, Nellie Fox etc are all in the Hall. It's hard to argue any of them were better than Helton, Rolen or Andruw Jones. And I could add 20 other names without much difficulty.

It also seems that some people prefer to ignore a player's position when it comes to their stats. 3B and CF are both positions that have had very few huge offensive superstars. Rolen was one of the best with a glove at 3B and a great offensive player. Jones was arguably the best defensive CF, and was a serious power hitter (albeit with a low batting average).

When it comes to relievers I understand people who prefer to measure them against pitchers of the past, and no reliever will match up. But we have had relief pitchers for roughly half a century. For me, this is enough to measure relievers against each other. I wasn't a big Wagner fan, but I'm good with him in.

Sheffield I don't know enough about the steroid considerations to comment.

If I had a vote I would probably vote for:
- Todd Helton
- Scott Rolen
- Andruw Jones
- Bobby Abreu

Also with Johan Santana was still on the ballot. I want anyone that was the 'best player in baseball' for a 5 year period to be in, almost regardless of what the rest of their career looked like. I'm glad Koufax is in, comfortable with Dizzy Dean being in, and think Santana (and someday DeGrom) should be in. Though I know this is my take on the Hall. I like high peak over extended solid performance as a general rule.

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'm with you on that. I value high peak over longevity as well. I'm more interested in who the best players were rather than who played the longest. Santana was an absolute murderer on the mound for several years.

this is my definition as well. Although I haven't personally decided if peak should be 5 yrs or 7 yrs. I've heard arguments for both.

A side note, IMO, the best thing for the HOF would be voiding future participation if voters return a blank ballot. Some voters have done that year after year. Get rid of them.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by etsmith

earlywynnfan, he has 3,000 hits and over 1800 runs scored. If that's not a Hall of Famer I don't know what is.

Did you read this part: "and not until he approached 3000 hits did I ever think I was looking at a HOFer."??