Virginia Brights boxes

[rdwyer]

I saw on TV a few years ago a Lady who had a couple hundred cigarette boxes of Virginia Brights. They were all 10 count boxes and were period. I think it was on the TV show Antiques Roadshow. Ne1 else seen this? Obviously, they haven't been sold or split up because I can't find them any anywhere. I haven't seen one on eBay for years. Comments?

[3-2-count]

Hi Richard. I love Virginia Brights memorabilia. I have these items I can share.

[TheBig6]

Nice stuff, Tony
Love the Cabinets

[3-2-count]

Hi Jerry, thank you. Long time no talk my friend.

[Jay Wolt]

Tony, your collecting interests w/ its eye appeal is always impressive.

[ethicsprof]

I'm with jay on this one.
Your collections are top shelf.
all the best,
barry

[atx840]

I believe one sold on May 18th via eBay. Great items Tony.

[3-2-count]

Thank you Jay, Barry & Chris. Much appreciated.

[Leon]

Great stuff Tony. Thanks for sharing. I haven't seen any of a big hoard of boxes come out....here are a few though.

[3-2-count]

Wow Leon, is that part of your collection?

[peterb69]

Double Wow Leon. That is some nice collection as well as displayed nicely.

[Jay Wolt]

Leon Fantastic display, very museum like

[sebie43]

Holy cow, that is amazing, Thanks for sharing that Tony and Leon.

[rdwyer]

I got 20 different boxes. Nothing compared to what Leon has. Nice display Leon.

If you had to sell them today Leon, what kind of value would you put on your collection?

[1880nonsports]

great stuff you two. Leon - curious about that stereoview of a factory as it appears on the Ginter shelf - ?

[GasHouseGang]

I think the episode you might be thinking about was an appraisal of a group of non-sport cards in Philadelphia in 2006.

Here is the link:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/200605A05.html

These appear to be Virginia Brights based on the second photo, but I can't tell what type of boxes these are in the first photo. Here are some pics of the hoard of cards this lady brought in that were stored in the original boxes.

[1880nonsports]

are at least indirectly associated with base ball OR baseball so I'm taking advantage of the open door. I have other packs scattered about - this best I could do as it's a bit OT I guess. I've tried different kinds of cases to display my packs - this lucite lighter display case works pretty well. Included the Mayo caddie label just because it deserves to be appreciated..... Most of the packs in the Camel display are sealed.

[1880nonsports]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I think the episode you might be thinking about was an appraisal of a group of non-sport cards in Philadelphia in 2006.

Here is the link:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/200605A05.html

These appear to be Virginia Brights based on the second photo, but I can't tell what type of boxes these are in the first photo. Here are some pics of the hoard of cards this lady brought in that were stored in the original boxes.

sure that's the one he was speaking of. I've wondered what happened to them as well.....................

[rdwyer]

David M: You're right. I knew it was a couple hundred something.

[Leon]

I will come on back and answer a few questions. First of all thanks for the kind words. Tobacciana collecting is a lot of fun.

Tony- Yes it is part of my collection though the most valuable things are not on display.

Peterb- thanks, but right now it's a messy display

rdwyer- hard to say on value. like I said some of the most valuable stuff isn't really on display, though it's only a half a dozen or so pieces. If I had to SWAG a guess, maybe 30k'ish to 35k'ish

Henry- The Stereoview has a big bold Honest ad on back and says American Tobacco, but the stereoview is of "294. Produce Exchange N.Y." and says that at the bottom on the front. I think that was a fairly popular place in 1896, when this was made (it is dated).

Here are a few more pics of the same display but a tad bit more organized....and a few other pics of my addiction

[Bocabirdman]

Geez Leon, The cigarette pack that I bought this morning is already in worse shape than a lot of your display pieces.....Awesome stuff......

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Leon - What is the framed A&G piece? I cannot make it out from the photo.

[JakeStahl'sGloveSHows]

The photos from these collections are just fabulous. Wow.

[1880nonsports]

The HLC stereoviews are neat - it's a very large series. Although I have some factory depictions in a few different forms - I have yet to see a photograph of the Ginter factory - or any other real photo example of the "big 5" with the exception of Kimball. Would love to find one for my accumulation - or even just see one - hence my query. Nice stuff....

[rdwyer]

Leon: What is the more valuable stuff? Broadleaf, Hindu, etc.?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

Leon: What is the more valuable stuff? Broadleaf, Hindu, etc.?

Drum 10 cig pack, Lone Jack, Gypsy Queen, Mino, Kotton, Contentnea and probably 1-2 I am forgetting...I might have estimated high....it could be 20k, who knows? I didn't buy them with resale in mind...
...I still need a Broadleaf and correct Hindu...my Hindu is a year late...

forgot to add, Henry- awesome display...as you well know you are part of my addiction problem in this part of the hobby. For those that don't know, ole Henry is one of the best tobacciana guys around. I know he has a decade or more on me in that part of the hobby.

And Alex- If you go up to the first scans I showed, earlier, you can see a better pic..The Allen and Ginter Invoice is from 1887.

[jerrys]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

are at least indirectly associated with base ball OR baseball so I'm taking advantage of the open door. I have other packs scattered about - this best I could do as it's a bit OT I guess. I've tried different kinds of cases to display my packs - this lucite lighter display case works pretty well. Included the Mayo caddie label just because it deserves to be appreciated..... Most of the packs in the Camel display are sealed.

I believe I see a Richmond 10 - only the one directly under the Colibri name and a Richmond 20 - two shelves down - both without the ATC tag. Nice, especially the 20.
Can you read the overprints on yours?
I only have a 10.
Factory 25
Aug 27 1889
District (?)

[1880nonsports]

but thanks Leon.
Jerry - I'll take a look later this afternoon. I wanted all three examples of the clam shell. As for the RSC slide packs I could never find one before the Bay. The one next to it is my most important. I'll try and take a pic.

[1880nonsports]

best I could do on a Sunday.........

[1880nonsports]

first one recently from a board member - never letting it go :-)

[JohnP0621]

I have recently begun adding cigarette boxes and tobacco tins to my collection. I recently found 2 old complete empty cigarette boxes in an antique store in Nj. One is a small box of 10 cigareetes and is the size of a Pied or Sweet Cap box that contained the T206. It is from Canada and has John Bull Cigarettes manufactued by L.G Grothe Ltd. It has a Lions Head in a Crest on the box.The other is a Flat box with the name Puppies Havana cigarettes and has a puppies head smoking a cigarette.I have tried to research the 2 boxes but can not find any info. If anyone of the pack/box collectors here have any info to share about these 2 boxes it would be greatly appreciated. I will send a photo as soon as I get a chance.

Regards.
John P

[jerrys]

Thanks for the display Henry - it doesn't appear that any of the tax stamps are overprinted. The 10 slide pack may have been.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What photo print is referred to here?

tt-ref1.jpg

[1880nonsports]

1) no idea what you mean by an overprint. If it's the cancellation stamping then it's mostly present on all four tax stamps/boxes.
2) as to your "what's this". You do see it says "1880snonsports" right? You are the baseball guys. I would suggest a possibility might be the Piedmont "photo" series (Fatima and ? as also found brands) - was like a newreal type series with B/W photos - CRS. All were under the ATC (and possibly together at least shortly after) and the tobacco companies did strange things with their premiums - I'm probably wrong but it's a quick first and unresearched thought. I'd start with factory numbers known to have produced............................

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jerrys

Thanks for the display Henry - it doesn't appear that any of the tax stamps are overprinted. The 10 slide pack may have been.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What photo print is referred to here?

Attachment 148113

we discussed it 5 yrs ago too.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=113376

[jerrys]

Henry - I put a divider in there for separation of subjects. You need not be the answer man for all tobacco related questions.

Anyway, looking in your display case I didn't notice any of the precious stones you had in Brooklyn.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Leon - The label suggests that a "Photo Print" be given away with this package.....

Photo prints suggest cheap paper; Helmar premiums were either inserts or obtained by mailing in quantities of coupons; doubt any of these were given out at the point of purchase.

I have the TT pack pictured below and would like to know what "card" was handed out with it. Of course I have a one cent Cash Gift Slip enclosed.

tt1.jpg

tt2.jpg

[ZachS]

Some really cool pictures in this thread. I really enjoy seeing how people display their collections (especially since I lost all my man-space to children).

All I have in the way of packs is a beat up Sweet Caporal 1911, Factory 42, District 4, NC. According to the stamp info it should have contained a T205 or a T206 SC 350/460 card at one point.

[1880nonsports]

point well taken Jerry :-) Now as to the boxes - Does the first box have the same factory/district info as the second one you've shown? They seem to be different. My first step - even though you didn't ask me :-) would be to try and date the first clam shell while trying to match the factory info with any of the baseball related issues. There was quite a bit of "cross-pollination" within the ATC of their inserts and premium issues. I have gift slip banding in a couple of different styles on my Helmar and other packs. Also popular were the "see that this package....." type banding strips so I imagine this process went on for a significant period of time. In terms of a few NS premiums I believe some were inserted or offered well into 1916 and perhaps even a year or two beyond that.

[jerrys]

Just curious to know whether your Richmond packs are dated during the years the cards were inserted. The overprinted dates on tax revenue stamps prove when they were used. I have not seen a 20 with the overprint, I'd like to know. Generally the printing is in red ink but the later ones are blue. It's been nine years since I wrote the SCD article on cigarette packs but I only covered the 19th century products. Due for an update.

The first TT is a file image; the second is mine. The TT photo print is a mystery. Untold numbers of tobacco shops were supplied with photo prints to handout with every ten cent pack of TT cigarettes they sold. This form of card distribution must be unique. None survived?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jerrys

................



The first TT is a file image; the second is mine. The TT photo print is a mystery. Untold numbers of tobacco shops were supplied with photo prints to handout with every ten cent pack of TT cigarettes they sold. This form of card distribution must be unique. None survived?

If you look closely at some of my pictures above you will see your file copy of the Turkish Trophies pack, with baseball print band, sitting on my shelf . As we discussed before the thinking is it was either S81 or L1 "prints", but there is no definitive proof right now that I am aware of as to what is mentioned.

[1880nonsports]

I probably was too literal in defining photo print in the context of today's usage however it also makes no sense to me that they would have referred to their highly touted silks and leather premiums as being representative of photo prints. My guess - and most likely I'm the only supporter of such an idea - is that they were excess T3's....................
I think I give up at this point and going back to the easy questions found when exploring the vagueries of 19th century packs and cards.

[1880nonsports]

It's difficult to read the CANCELLATION on one of the 2 clamboxes but on the one with the red stamping - Factory 25 March 12, 1889. I believe that is a date frame within which a card could have been inserted into the pack.

no guarantees whether written or implied

[jerrys]

Helmar high quality premiums being given away free with a ten cent pack of TT cigarettes at an incalculable number of tobacco stores! Not possible. T3s are Turkey Red cigarettes premiums.

Is the Factory 25 March 12, 1889 the 20 pack? The date is perfect - how much is it?

[rhettyeakley]

I think you guys are overcomplicating things a bit. I have little doubt that they were likely referring to T3's.

The Turkish Cigarette brands were ATC brands and they likely didn't mind cross-advertising other products. Helmar and Turkish Trophies were very similar brands and in some cases even produced the same series of cards at the same time (T52 Costumes of All Nations). Also given the fact this is an "outside of the package" ad sticker I don't think it is outside the realm of possibilities that it was simply a test promotion or a hastily put together one (to the tune of giving out a premium with a Turkish Trophy box that doesn't specifically refer to that exact brand), also keep in mind that what we call "T3 Turkey Red" cards were also advertised and given away just as much with FEZ and OLD MILL cigarettes as they were Turkey Red, we only call them "Turkey Red" cards because some of the second series had that advertised on back without the checklist, but had the second series of cards not been produced they wouldn't be called simply "Tukey Reds" as they advertised the other brands just as much as the Turkey Red brand. Another thing to keep in mind is that maybe the ones given away with this promotion are the non-advertising "checklist only" cards that are rarely seen today.

A similar type of promotion was done with the Hamilton King (or T7) girl cards. We think of these as "send-away" premiums but I found a VERY brittle envelope some years back containing a complete set of the "Flag Girls" that had instructions for the retailer very similar to what was probably furnished with the shipment of "ball player photo prints" that we see on the Turkish Trophies boxes above...

[1880nonsports]

"I think you guys are overcomplicating things a bit. I have little doubt that they were likely referring to T3's."
"There was quite a bit of "cross-pollination" within the ATC of their inserts and premium issues."

Nicely expressed. I'm not used to having support. It seemed to me the only likely choice.
Jerry - the "20" isn't for sale.

[jerrys]

The sticker on the TT pack states: "photo print of a famous base ball players....." and the question is what photo print is being referred to. I don't believe there is over complications here; just a question looking for a real answer. By personally having little doubt the T3 is the photo print in question is not fact. Surely there must be a better reason than guessing. It hasn't even been established whether this TT pack was produced in the 1910-1911 time frame.

Your post strays into extraneous matters without demonstrating any logical connection to your T3 opinion. T3s are premiums of Turkey Red, Fez and Old Mill not Helmar. Helmar and Turkish Trophies were not similar brands - TT was a brand of Helmar.

BTW as I recall the production of T3s were exhausted in 1911 and the message to send in coupons was removed from these cabinets in order to ease demand. There was actually a shortage of these cabinets; not a surplus to supply endless tobacco stores - even if this theory was true.

Henry - you knew that I knew. Anyway this is the cigarette pack article I sent to SCD in 2005. They made a black and white collage out of all of the images.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

[the 'stache]

Some absolutely beautiful collections, gentlemen.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jerrys

The sticker on the TT pack states: "photo print of a famous base ball players....." and the question is what photo print is being referred to. I don't believe there is over complications here; just a question looking for a real answer. By personally having little doubt the T3 is the photo print in question is not fact. Surely there must be a better reason than guessing. It hasn't even been established whether this TT pack was produced in the 1910-1911 time frame.

Your post strays into extraneous matters without demonstrating any logical connection to your T3 opinion. T3s are premiums of Turkey Red, Fez and Old Mill not Helmar. Helmar and Turkish Trophies were not similar brands - TT was a brand of Helmar.

BTW as I recall the production of T3s were exhausted in 1911 and the message to send in coupons was removed from these cabinets in order to ease demand. There was actually a shortage of these cabinets; not a surplus to supply endless tobacco stores - even if this theory was true.

Henry - you knew that I knew. Anyway this is the cigarette pack article I sent to SCD in 2005. They made a black and white collage out of all of the images.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

The tax stamp on the Turkish Trophy box in question is from 1909 and is a series of 1910. It doesn't have an overprint so can't be pinpointed to the exact year. These stamps with this series of 1910 were made between 1910 - 1916. It is a Factory 7 District 3 NY box. I wouldn't doubt if it was a short promo for T3 cards. I bet someday we will find definitive proof and that is what keeps the hobby interesting to me.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by jerrys

By personally having little doubt the T3 is the photo print in question is not fact. Surely there must be a better reason than guessing.

Your post strays into extraneous matters without demonstrating any logical connection to your T3 opinion.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

I never said it was fact, merely my opinion and stated what I based my opinion on, I don't feel it was too extraneous to point out the Turkish Trophy brand had done a similar promotion previously with cards of exactly the same size as T3's.

Originally Posted by jerrys

T3s are premiums of Turkey Red, Fez and Old Mill not Helmar. Helmar and Turkish Trophies were not similar brands - TT was a brand of Helmar.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

Helmar was a separate brand, Turkish Trophies was not a "brand of Helmar," S. Anarygos was the parent "pseudo-comany" and had many sub-brands during that time including Egyptian Deities and others. Look at the T350 imitation cigar label series, there are 5 different brands that were all included in the same packs at the same time... Turkish Trophies, Helmar, Mogul, Murad and Egyptian Deities. You are speaking of these brands like they were all owned by different companies and it wouldn't make sense for a TR to advertise TT, which just is not true. The "cross-pollination" Henry speaks about was commonplace for their promotions.

Originally Posted by jerrys

BTW as I recall the production of T3s were exhausted in 1911 and the message to send in coupons was removed from these cabinets in order to ease demand. There was actually a shortage of these cabinets; not a surplus to supply endless tobacco stores - even if this theory was true.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

This has never been proven that these "no-checklist/brand" cards were done when the supply was dwindling. The fact that the no checklist back is on Series 1 cards only actually would seem to indicate that was not the case.


Jerry, you seem like a nice guy and I respect your opinion greatly so I'm not sure why you seem so dismissive of everyone else's theories/educated guesses. I'd love to hear your theory as to what was being given out.

[1880nonsports]

please refer to "gift slip" if you have one in hand - if not I can make a scan of one. I'm specifically looking at coupon number 89-6-14 as it was issued from the Anargyros factory 7 - 3rd district for the cards (only Hamilton King Girls)/silks/leathers/large leathers "presents". "Turkish Trophies Gift slips.......and Helmar Gift Slips......are of equal value in securing presents......". This suggests some of the possible muddling between brands and promotions as a result of being under the ATC.
I would agree that it would be nice to have an answer. Lacking that - reasoned conjecture seems a likely path to travel down. Not so sure anyone is "guessing" - I read your article a while back and will look at it again later - I have to believe you made some guesses :-). When people I respect make guesses I look at it a little differently than a carnival barker.
As the pack has now been revealed as within the correct time frame for ATC promotions (even the additional couple of years beyond the 1910-1914 period suggested by a 1909/1910 act/series don't nessesarily preclude the relationship either as has been demonstrated with similar promotions undertaken by the ATC) I think that the T3's are a favorably weighted choice. Maybe if we all keep "guessing" - we'll eventually get to the correct conclusion in the absence of reliable emperical evidence.

[1880nonsports]

and I too detected an edge of something raspy in Jerry's tone and tenor in the thread that surprised me. I didn't mention it because I didn't want him to yell at me. Jerry? I think we were just trying to see what the possibilities are? I find eating a good breakfast makes me feel better longer..............