Ebay Fraud

[cmcclelland]

I am just seeking any guidance or experience that people might be able to pass along as I prepare to navigate the Ebay/Paypal buyer protection program for a recent purchase I made on ebay.

Here is what happened - I bought a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 4 and Eddie Mathews PSA 3 (2 card lot in one transaction) on ebay last week for $11,750. I paid via Paypal immediately using my credit card. The package arrived today via UPS. I go to open it up and see that the bottom seem on the box is partially slit open and the box is creased and bent so that you can sort of see into the box. I could see bubble wrap and the box felt very light, so I instantly got this sinking feeling in my stomach. I opened the box and discovered what I worried would be the case - no cards inside. Just some bubble wrap with a crumpled up packing slip inside.

Based on my understanding, I should be fully protected under the Paypal Buyer Protection Plan. So, I've filed the claim with Paypal online tonight and will await their response. I've also left messages for the seller via email and telephone. His name is Scott Robert Mele from Troy, NY if anyone happens to know anything about him. His ebay id is srm128 - over 3000 transactions with 100% positive feedback. I've also filed a dispute on the charge with my credit card company.

I would just like to hear any stories as to other members' experiences with the Paypal Buyer Protection Program, especially on any larger transactions. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Colt McClelland

[ullmandds]

how horrible...I hope you get this worked out!

[3and2]

Colt,

What an awful story. Keep us informed w/ the situation.

[Leon]

If you paid via your credit card, paypal or not, I feel a tad bit better. I wouldn't say you are out of the woods by any means but CC companies are usually pretty good. In my experience (at least with Bank of America) they really protect me. All I have to do is say boo, and they give me my money back. Keep us informed. What a horrible situation.....

[ChiefBenderForever]

I'm sure you will get your money back but would rather have the cards. What a nightmare. What about UPS and the driver? What is seller saying I'm sure he is going to have to file a claim, what a mess good luck.

[Jay Wolt]

Colt, your card looks like the one that Huggins & Scott recently auctioned of at $13,200.
You may want to contact them to see what they know.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Cat]

You can match up the print defects to determine it is the H&S card. It is almost certainly the same scan (with the addition of blocking out the cert numbers). Hmmm

[bobbyw8469]

Ditto...the Mantle was sold last month from Huggins and Scott....no seller would sell the same card one month later for less money....this whole transaction reeked of scam from the get go.....the old saying....if it is too good to be true....

[sox1903wschamp]

It does reek of scam. Looking at the sellers feedback, it's 100% but from what you can see over the past 90 days, they are not selling anything remotely close to "Vintage" cards. Here is to hoping you get your money back.

[murcerfan]

Colt.
surely you had him send the package usps registered mail with insurance right? no worries in that case, just get your postmaster on it.
will call you tomorrow....

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by murcerfan

Colt.
surely you had him send the package usps registered mail with insurance right? no worries in that case, just get your postmaster on it.
will call you tomorrow....

Dave, he stated the empty box arrived from UPS today.

[egbeachley]

If you haven't already done so, grab the scans off Ebay before they are deleted.

[D. Bergin]

Buyer shouldn't have problems getting money back on this transaction. All points look to be a scam, seeing as the scans were stolen and the fact it doesn't make sense offering the Matthews and the Mantle in a single lot.

Looking at the feedback of the seller he must be perfectly aware of how things go with with Ebay and Paypal. I think this is a much more subtle scam and something people should look out for, even if they are not the intended victim or they receive a refund on the transaction from Paypal.

I believe the intended victim here is UPS to be perfectly honest. I worked at UPS for over 10 years. Packages valued at over $5000 are treated completely separate from all the other packages. They get handled separately throughout the entire system and are kept track of separately from the time they are picked up from the time they are delivered. They are kept separate from the rest of the load on whatever truck they are on to avoid damage or crushing. They also do not spend time on the same conveyor belts as most other packages.

I imagine it's similar to Registered Mail through the USPS. Because of this extra handling, if something does happen UPS is likely to pay out the claim quickly because the package is under watch at all times and claims rarely happen on packages of those values.

However there's no way of knowing if an Insured package actually had the items in there it was claimed since they don't search the boxes after they are Insured.

I think this guy sent out an empty box full of packing materials and a concealed slit in the packaging at the bottom of the box, hidden just enough so the driver picking up the package wouldn't notice it and it would at least get into the system before detected.

Now the guy has evidence of rifling when he goes to file a claim. He has to know Paypal is going to refund the customer so the final intended consequence is a nice windfall from a UPS claim for a couple of cards he never owned at any point in time.

I'm actually surprised we don't hear about stuff like this happening more often.

I'd have a hard time believing a UPS driver stole these cards. Any driver with a brain knows any packages of this type of value could be tracked back to him in less then a minute by the claims department. UPS drivers are well paid with very good benefits. No way one would risk losing that in a no-win situation.

I'm sure it's happened somewhere, but I've never ever seen or heard of a UPS driver stealing packages, not even as a rumor amongst themselves.

I have seen part-time warehouse guys get caught rifling through low value packages on occasion. These are usually new-hires who aren't aware UPS has cameras everywhere on the belts to check on if issues arise. When they catch somebody they make a big show of them. They call the police in the middle of a shift and have them brought out of the warehouse in cuffs in front of everybody working that shift as an example.

I remember we also had a Part-time supervisor caught slapping his own labels on computer boxes and diverting them to his own computer store. Once again easily tracked and a pretty dumb idea.

Not to say UPS is all gravy. Packages that aren't classified as high value or "hazardous", are usually beat to hell by the time they get where they are going. Everything is about efficiency, getting things done as quickly as possible, and packing trucks as tightly as humanely possible..........which is why they can pay guys as well as they do and still make a nice profit.

Christmas time the conveyor belts are jam packed and it's like sorting through an avalanche sometimes for the sorters and truck loaders (actually most of the time). If you ship through UPS, make sure you've packed the item to survive a war.........is all I'm saying.

That said, it's been nearly 10 years since I've worked there so I'm sure some things have changed, but I still talk to some of the guys and I don't think it's changed THAT much since I was there.

[Jim VB]

This seller has experience with these types of problems. He has 8 negs (8 items from the same transaction) that look like the same type of problem. They were from December 2008, so I'm not sure how he gets a 100% feedback rating.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I think this guy sent out an empty box full of packing materials and a concealed slit in the packaging at the bottom of the box, hidden just enough so the driver picking up the package wouldn't notice it and it would at least get into the system before detected.

Now the guy has evidence of rifling when he goes to file a claim. He has to know Paypal is going to refund the customer so the final intended consequence is a nice windfall from a UPS claim for a couple of cards he never owned at any point in time.

Bingo

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

This seller has experience with these types of problems. He has 8 negs (8 items from the same transaction) that look like the same type of problem. They were from December 2008, so I'm not sure how he gets a 100% feedback rating.

Transaction date might have been older then the negs and they might have expired from the new 12 month Ebay cycle is my guess.

Maybe he busts out this scam once a year for Christmas presents and then goes back to business as usual to try to stay off the radar screen and not seem too obvious.

I think he might have just screwed that up by getting a bit too ambitious this time. Hopefully UPS calls him on it.

[marvjung]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

That said, it's been nearly 10 years since I've worked there so I'm sure some things have changed, but I still talk to some of the guys and I don't think it's changed THAT much since I was there.

I'm inclined to agree.

I worked for UPS as well as a college student and they allowed only 4 to 5 hour shifts. After my first day, I understood why; I worked as a truck loader and I would take all the boxes off the conveyor belts and pack them into the trucks. We were trained to get the boxes in, as many as possible, into the trucks - whether we punched, kicked, forced the boxes into the container. Imagine Tetris, but you're allowed to use brute force, even when the pieces don't quite fit.

I agree completely that this is a more subtle scam based upon taking money from the shipping company itself. If the package had a very slight 4 or 5 inch slit in it, upon packing into a truck, using the methodolgy that I was trained in to pack a truck, that 4 or 5 inch slit could, and would have, easily expanded wide enough to make it look as if something fell out after a few poundings.

[wilkcards]

Wow, I just saw that complete auction and was thinking what a great deal that was for the Mantle, and Mathews. Hard to believe he would have even sold the cards for that price when they surely would go for more at auction.
Good luck on the refund!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Does UPS keep a record of the exact weight of a package? If so it would be easy to prove there were no slabs in it at the time it was dispatched.

[Davidbvintage]

I am not sure if UPS works like USPS or FEDEX with their labels but i assume they do something similar so this is what i would suggess. If the box was sent with a printed shipping label, check the weight of the shipment on the label. If it was not sent with a label ask the seller for a copy of the shipping receipt as it shouldl have the weight on it or contact UPS and see if they can tell you. Compair the weight to the actual package you received to the weight of the package sent and that will tell you if cards were actually included in the package. Good luck.

[Davidbvintage]

Sorry Peter, we were typing at the same time with the same idea.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by marvjung

I'm inclined to agree.

I worked for UPS as well as a college student and they allowed only 4 to 5 hour shifts. After my first day, I understood why; I worked as a truck loader and I would take all the boxes off the conveyor belts and pack them into the trucks. We were trained to get the boxes in, as many as possible, into the trucks - whether we punched, kicked, forced the boxes into the container. Imagine Tetris, but you're allowed to use brute force, even when the pieces don't quite fit.

I agree completely that this is a more subtle scam based upon taking money from the shipping company itself. If the package had a very slight 4 or 5 inch slit in it, upon packing into a truck, using the methodolgy that I was trained in to pack a truck, that 4 or 5 inch slit could, and would have, easily expanded wide enough to make it look as if something fell out after a few poundings.

Those were the days huh. I worked in that warehouse for 5 years. Definitely a young mans game but where else could you go to college and work part time for $12-15 bucks an hour in the late 80's. Those trucks were brutal BTW. I got out of those and up at a Pick-off spot in the rafters as soon as I possibly could. Still a hard job but not quite as backbreaking.

I remember they also had a program, if they recruited you to the management team as a part-time supervisor they would also pay for your college education. Pretty sweet if you were ambitious and didn't mind being a whipping boy for the full-time management.

I'm starting to wonder if the guy under-insured the package on purpose, because normally packages of that type of value get handed directly to a clerk by the driver as soon as he gets back to the building. The package is then looked over and re-taped or even re-packaged into an additional box if it looks weak.

I wonder if he insured it for under 5K to get it on the trucks un-noticed. He would have to have some knowledge of how UPS worked to decide on that method but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

[smtjoy]

Looks like a total scam.



In order to send a package USPS Registered it must be fully enclosed with Gum Tape. I have had to retape a couple of my boxes way back when I was first using this service. So I dont see any way anyone could have used this scam with registered mail.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Davidbvintage

I am not sure if UPS works like USPS or FEDEX with their labels but i assume they do something similar so this is what i would suggess. If the box was sent with a printed shipping label, check the weight of the shipment on the label. If it was not sent with a label ask the seller for a copy of the shipping receipt as it shouldl have the weight on it or contact UPS and see if they can tell you. Compair the weight to the actual package you received to the weight of the package sent and that will tell you if cards were actually included in the package. Good luck.

UPS rounds up to the nearest lb., and the weights can easily be manipulated by the shipper.

Packages aren't re-weighed when they get back to the building like FedEx. Too much volume.

UPS, at least when I was there, trusted most shippers to be honest with the weights. Only heavy packages that were obviously under-weighed on the label were pulled off and re-weighed for billing purposes when a loader noticed an obvious discrepency. Usually, this only involved packages over 70 lb's.

Even on a scale, a couple a slabs can easily get lost in that 1 lb. round-up.

[drc]

I'm no shipping guru, but once shipped an expensive diamond ring where the buyer requested I use a specific UPS service. The person at UPS opened and closed the box to verify that the described item was inside-- she literally did the final packaging after she put the ring back inside. Now, she admitted she wasn't a jerweler, but officially verified that the item appeared to match what as listed on the forms.

[cmcclelland]

Thanks to everyone for their responses. Here is a quick update:

I actually subscribe to vintage card prices and was just sloppy here and didn't look at the auction history to see that the scan was from Huggins and Scott. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I talked to Huggings & Scott this morning, and they were very helpful. Turns out that the guy who bought this card in their last auction has not even paid for the card yet, and Huggins & Scott still has the card!

My next call was to Paypal to give them the updated information. Again, they were very helpful. They put this on an expedited list and told me all I would need was a police report from my local police department, and I would then get all my money back.

Finally, I decided to call the seller. He had called me last night and acted very surprised and shocked that this had happened. He appeared to be very helpful and assured me that the package was insured through UPS and I would have no problem getting my money back. This was all before I realized the scan was stolen, and I have to admit I was very convinced he was telling the truth.

So, I called him back today, laid out the facts, and told him that I knew exactly what he had done. I also told him that if he did not issue me a refund via Paypal by the end of the day today, I would pursue criminal charges through his local police as well as the FBI. I also told him I would notify his employer since he had shipped it from his work using the company UPS account. Two hours later he issued me a refund.

Everyone is right on the money regarding the intentions of this guy - he knew I would get my money back and was trying to scam UPS. I'm sure UPS will call me if he tries to make a claim, and I will definitely let them know the facts.

Glad this nightmare is over. Thanks to everyone for the helpful information.

Colt

[Jim VB]

Even though you have your money back, I would still notify law enforcement, Ebay and Paypal, as well as UPS. The attempt to defraud is a crime itself.

And to be complete, you better neg him on Ebay. Something like: "Buyer admitted he was running a scam and refunded my money, but he never had these cards to sell!"

[Leon]

What a situation this was!! The dishonest seller should really reap some kind of punishment but the main thing is that you have your money back. Incredible how the members on our board had this one nailed. I would have expected no less of Huggins and Scott except to be extremely helpful. They are a class act. I love when outcomes turn out the way they should.

[drc]

double post

[Jay Wolt]

Colt, glad you weren't taken.
I agree w/ Leon, this guy shouldn't get off scott free.
He commited fraud and should pay the consequences like any crook
trying to bilk someone out of 5 figures.

[autograf]

I would echo Jim's thoughts on negging him and alerting people. Since you have your money back now, he has no recourse for pushing you and what he did is clearly wrong. Been at UPS 25 years now and it happens ALL the time. We pay a couple hundred MILLION dollars in claims a year--much by our own issues but also I'm sure millions if not tens of millions due to fraud such as this. So.....was he the winner of the card from Huggins & Scott?

[ChiefBenderForever]

This is great to hear good detective work to nail this scumbag what a p.o.s. How strange would it be if the winner doesn't pay and you end up with the card after all this.

[Anthony S.]

Great job, Colt. Congrats. Now nail that bastard to the wall.

[Edwolf1963]

Wow, what a story! Colt, glad you got your money back! Amazing that the folks here were able to pick up so much on this right away - I have learned a lot by just reading through it. Agree with the consensus, this is a crime. If I held up a bank and was forced into a corner to give it back the next day, a crime was still committed. Nevertheless, thank you for bring this to light, your update and again, glad you were able to recoup!

[sportscardtheory]

I agree that you MUST do all you can to nail this guy to the wall. Otherwise, he will just do it again to someone else. He made his bed, now he should lie in it.

[Bosox Blair]

I love how this Ebay seller blocked out the PSA cert numbers "to avoid scammers"...hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

To Colt, I'm glad you got to the bottom of it and got your money back. I agree with those who believe you should proceed with the authorities. They need to be involved here. This is not just some Ebay mix-up, difference of opinion, or sub-par service...this is much more serious.

[Leon]

One thing I might add about getting some punitive damages or jail time for the scammer. The authorities, while they might be interested, might have other bigger fish to fry. If you are to get help, and want to do it, my understanding is it might be easiest to get help at the most entry level of law enforcement...that being the City where the scammer, or you, are first. Then move up the chain after that. I remember the T206 scammer and the end result there. Since, in the end, there were no real losses the authorities prioritized it much less. Sad, but I think true. In their defense the question back to us becomes, do they go after other more egregious situations first, or this guy? I hope no one will take this as me thinking something shouldn't still be done to this guy, punitively, as I do. I am just saying what I think might happen. I hope not though. regards

[e107collector]

It' kind of ironic that the ebay seller states in his description that he "blocked out the serial numbers on the slabs so scammers won't steal the scans." It appears he stole the scans from Huggins and Scott.

Tony

[cmcclelland]

I am planning to alert the proper authorities as well as Paypal, ebay, and UPS. I've already got a phone message from UPS asking me to follow up on the insurance claim (I assume he filed the claim with UPS before everything blew up on him). I plan to wait a week or so to see if this guy is really going to still pursue the insurance claim after all of this. If he does that, then I'll have no mercy. Bottom line - don't worry - I'll make sure he pays for what he did.

However, I agree with Leon. If this just goes away without any real damages (just an "attempt" to defraud and steal money), I'm not sure the police, FBI, or anyone else will really want to spend much time doing anything about it. It sucks that a-hole's like this are out there. I guess we can all at least learn something from this. I certainly did.

By the way, anyone got a nicely centered 1952 Topps Mantle in a PSA 4 holder they would like to sell for around $10k? I was flying high thinking I got this great deal - now I'm back to square 1. lol

[Fred]

This guy is a dirt bag. If he already filed a claim with UPS then I'd, at a minimum, I would alert UPS to this scam. This $hitbag deserves everything he has coming to him. It's people like him that totally screw up things for everyone else. If UPS had to pay out $10K+ for this you know who's going to pay for it.... all the other consumers. For all you know this guy could be a total con. Why let him get away with this. He needs a good beat down by the authorities. Maybe, just maybe he'll learn his lesson.

Do you know why you received an immediate refund via paypal? Because the guy is a thief and he knew he was caught. He's probably praying that you just let this go. Do you think he'll learn a lesson from this? NO - if he gets away with it he'll think he can pull the scam on someone else because he got away with it.

It took years to finally prosecute that idiot "Crazy Canuck" $hitbag and it was worth the effort and time to do it because he's no longer screwing people.

This board deserves a pat on the back for the effort that resulted in this positive outcome.

Leon, perhaps you could create a new categorey called CAVEAT EMPTOR and allow the community to post the names of bonafide dirtbags (ebay sellers, etc) that need to be avoided. I would say that the list should be reserved for only those that are absolute buttheads.

[Vintagecatcher]

Colt,

I'm glad you were able to get your money back. What happened to you is something we all worry about as collectors.

Good luck in your search!

Patrick

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Fred

Leon, perhaps you could create a new categorey called CAVEAT EMPTOR and allow the community to post the names of bonafide dirtbags (ebay sellers, etc) that need to be avoided. I would say that the list should be reserved for only those that are absolute buttheads.

While I would like to do this I think it would open me and others up to liability we don't need. No matter how cut and dry something is someone can sue...and then fees get incurred on both sides. Just ask a few board members .

[makersmarkambassador]

Colt...I work in the IT dept at UPS in Louisville's Worldport. Just about every air package comes through our hub. If you give me the tracking #, I can look it up in the database and see where it was through the building at all times. It gets scanned 8 times from the minute it's unloaded to the time it gets loaded in the container and is all automated. No more throwing packages(lol). If you want to email me privately at david.goff@insightbb.com and I'll get back with you tomorrow.

As Tom stated, we get calls from security asking us to see the last time a package was scanned in our building that way the can look at the tape of the area in question.

[slantycouch]

Originally Posted by cmcclelland

So, I called him back today, laid out the facts, and told him that I knew exactly what he had done. I also told him that if he did not issue me a refund via Paypal by the end of the day today, I would pursue criminal charges through his local police as well as the FBI. I also told him I would notify his employer since he had shipped it from his work using the company UPS account. Two hours later he issued me a refund.

Haha wow - nicely done! What a moron that guy is.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I think the thing that would hurt him the worst is to inform his employer, heck they probably even ended up paying for the shipping. To me this would be better than having the police slap him on the wrist. One way or another this guy needs to be punished.

Lee

[murcerfan]

I still think we should send Moose and Rocco down. ........plus there's a really good brewery in Troy.

forget the city cops.....this is what sheriiffs are for around here.

http://www.rensco.com/sheriff.asp

[Anthony S.]

Wicked nice Mantle here. Get yer wicked nice Mantle...

[cmcclelland]

Just a quick update - UPS is pursuing an insurance fraud case against this guy.

They sent an "inspector" to my house to investigate the claim. I provided him with detailed information regarding what had happened. Within 10 minutes of the UPS inspector updating the UPS system on the claim, the seller called to cancel the claim. The UPS security guy just emailed me and said they would be pursuing a fraud claim against the shipper.

I'll post an update if I find out anything more.

[Jay Wolt]

Colt, good news, hope they fry this bum
Give em some jail time and I betcha he'll never do it again

[wilkcards]

Originally Posted by cmcclelland

Just a quick update - UPS is pursuing an insurance fraud case against this guy.

They sent an "inspector" to my house to investigate the claim. I provided him with detailed information regarding what had happened. Within 10 minutes of the UPS inspector updating the UPS system on the claim, the seller called to cancel the claim. The UPS security guy just emailed me and said they would be pursuing a fraud claim against the shipper.

I'll post an update if I find out anything more.

Nice. This guy's going down.