Framed and Matted Autographed Items

[Wymers Auction]

Are framing and matting under glass used to hide cut forgeries? The reason I ask is I was looking at a Lou Gehrig cut that looked awesome, but was authenticated by a well known authentication company that deals in forgeries. Are they so bold as to copy real autos and act like they are genuine. Is there any way I could tell the difference without having this in hand. Also I may add that this auction house deals in Marilyn Monroe, Beatles, Mantle, Darwin, Capone, Matthewson, and hundreds more all in the same sale. I am not worried if these items are authentic, but trying to learn to tell the difference if possible not having this in hand.

[drc]

Authentic items are regularly framed and matted, so I don't think framing and matting itself is a sign of anything.

Stamped signatures and some machine-printed signatures can often be identified as such in an online image. For example, the stadium balls with stamped on team signatures simply look stamped on-- there's no ink flow. Even autopens can look unreal due to a lack of change in pen pressure/ink density.

One thing is if your purchase is machine printed, you'd have no trouble proving it's a fake beyond a doubt for the sake of getting your money back, as an expert could testify it wasn't hand written. There would be no dueling signature 'experts' required.

And, as always, know the seller. An reputable autograph expert isn't going to sell you a ink jet copy of a Joe DiMaggio autograph.

[Wymers Auction]

Thanks David. I am a newer dealer and I am trying to learn this craft. Autographs are very confusing to me. Here is the link to the Gehrig I was referring to https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDeta...&lid=12719915#

[canjond]

As you mention, that autograph is extremely fake. I think that a lot of this garbage is originally sold cheap and unframed. Stores then frame the items and sell them in key places, i.e., Vegas casinos, Disney World, etc.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by canjond

As you mention, that autograph is extremely fake. I think that a lot of this garbage is originally sold cheap and unframed. Stores then frame the items and sell them in key places, i.e., Vegas casinos, Disney World, etc.

It sold for $460, need we say more?
Quite possibly from CC or some other nefarious person or site, to that Proxi Bid (boy the auctions they put there are questionable) to that Vegas casino store, Disney World store or a local auction of some sort where they will tell you it came from the estate of a guy who got it in person, hand signed by Lou Gehrig. Yeah, right $460.

[Wymers Auction]

Richard I believe that it is fake, but when I compare it to known examples it looks o.k. to me. Is it copied or forged? Gehrig is one of the signatures I feel I will need to learn more about so that I can be certain to never sell ones like these. I compared to PSA/DNA examples and I thought they were extremely similar. I trust your expertise, but I am simply trying to learn.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Richard I believe that it is fake, but when I compare it to known examples it looks o.k. to me. Is it copied or forged? Gehrig is one of the signatures I feel I will need to learn more about so that I can be certain to never sell ones like these. I compared to PSA/DNA examples and I thought they were extremely similar. I trust your expertise, but I am simply trying to learn.

Keep in mind that scanned/printed autographs will be more than extremely similar (as in, an exact duplication, which may not be evident unless examined up close).

While a piece being framed/matted in and of itself isn't a giveaway that it's fake, it does provide the seller with a convenient excuse for not providing a large, clear, straight-on image of the signature (the flash reflected off the glass, the frame wouldn't fit on my scanner, etc). Just one more thing to be aware of and factor into your decision.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

It sold for $460, need we say more?
Quite possibly from CC or some other nefarious person or site, to that Proxi Bid (boy the auctions they put there are questionable) to that Vegas casino store, Disney World store or a local auction of some sort where they will tell you it came from the estate of a guy who got it in person, hand signed by Lou Gehrig. Yeah, right $460.

That's right--CC is at the base of the supply chain for all the Vegas and Orlando "popular culture" memorabilia stores. Never mind the fact that the Vegas casino store pays more in rent each month than Coach's yearly gross.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Richard I believe that it is fake, but when I compare it to known examples it looks o.k. to me. Is it copied or forged? Gehrig is one of the signatures I feel I will need to learn more about so that I can be certain to never sell ones like these. I compared to PSA/DNA examples and I thought they were extremely similar. I trust your expertise, but I am simply trying to learn.

I have seen some idiots on ebay who actually auction off reprints. The reprint they are auctioning is a reprint of a forgery. Nothing like a seller who knows zero about what they are doing.

[drc]

My opinion is if you're a newer dealer or collector don't start out with Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth. I'm thinking more like Tom Seaver.

In fact Pre-WWI common players is an interesting area. Obscure players but they can have good value and are in demand.

[Wymers Auction]

David I only sell PSA or JSA for now. I sell probably about 98% baseball cards. Richard thanks for your help as well as all of the other comments. You are also right David Tom Seaver is probably better for me at this point in time. I have since looked closer at the Gehrig and see some things that would make me question it, but it took me about 5 minutes of comparing. I guess I cannot be impatient when looking at autos. I do not mind selling Pete Rose and Johnny Bench I am from Cincinnati and have seen hundreds of these and I am comfortable with them.

[drc]

I'd recommend getting a list of good autograph dealers and auction houses, on and off eBay, and following what they have for sale, see if you can pick up a few good deals. Just one example would be Lelands.com, when they have an auction. Saying you got an autograph from Lelands, with a print out of their catalog description for documemntation, is as good a provenance as anything.

[Wymers Auction]

David thanks for the tip. I like to highlight my auctions with one decent autograph. I feel it brings as much attention to the auction for the same amount of money as some advertisements. I will not have my auctions become some sort of forgery circus. People that buy from me trust me and I respect that. I will look into Leland's.

[drc]

I understand your point of wanting an authentic really nice autograph to get attention to your auction. Makes sense.

[Jason]

The seller of this autograph lives in the same city/town and state as you do.Maybe you could contact them and see if they have anymore framed cuts of Gehrig so you can see them in person.That would be a good way to get a nice look at either an authentic or fake cut auto.Jason Wells

[Wymers Auction]

Jason I know this guy personally. I do not want to be seen with him in any fashion because of the fakes. I do not want someone to see me there and think this stuff is mine or anything else. It is hard to explain, but rumors can kill a reputation.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Wymers Auction

Jason I know this guy personally. I do not want to be seen with him in any fashion because of the fakes. I do not want someone to see me there and think this stuff is mine or anything else. It is hard to explain, but rumors can kill a reputation.

I can understand that.No need to get tied up at all with questionable company.

[Wymers Auction]

The really sad part is that this auction has a really good following and could make better money shooting it straight.