Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Finally, Post 200!!!

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Sorry about that, I just wanted to get that out of the way...

Circumstantial evidence:

• Bigger than Hulk Hogan ever was...
  
• Increased HR production (HR/AB - that number went from about 1/16 to 1/8)
  
• Uncontrollable personality / mood swings.... oops that one doesn't count, he's probably always been a horses ass...
  

I'll tell it like it is though... he's certainly been a joy to watch for the past 5/6 years, more so than he ever was before that time.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Hey, no fair!!! I wanted post 200. I'm the one keeping it alive

Chuck, there is no solid evidence in any of the books or articles. It's all hearsay and conjecture. How can you say those authors don't have an axe grind? They continue to perpetuate the lie that Bonds said he use the steroids Clear and Cream in his GJ tesitimony when that has already been proven by the transcript that is not what he said. If these guys truely had altruistic motives, then they would not continue this lie. They do so because they know it will help sell their book. You also need to remember, as someone else pointed out, you can debate a subject without believe the side that you are defending.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Steroids, HGH, LSD, crack, pot, whatever. Let's see what the human body can really do

I'm joking...

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Bonds on LSD... hmmm... that would be interesting...

"I can fly, really, I can......"

Edited to add the following:

Jay, yup, you absolutely deserved to be #200!!! Sorry about that Chief!

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

Since when is Barry Bonds part of the vintage world? Rob

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Bonds will be "vintage" in about 50 years or so... as of now he's just a topic of discussion on the board. One of those OT threads that Leon allows every once in a while. Either that or Leon's been sleeping on the job again and we need to impeach him and rid ourselves of his dictorial ways. Only problem is that if he quit we couldn't get anyone else to do what he does for us...

I think that the threads get started so that we can get Jay's goat and provide him with a little cardiovascular exercise... I figure his blood pressure rises everytime we beat Bonds down like this and mention that we think Bonds has taken steroids... just kidding Jay

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Posted By: Jason

As much as I hate to admit it I do agree with Jay on this subject. Bonds is just 100% pure talent and the best home run hitter of all time. I really doubt any kind of supplement whatever it is has much of an effect of how far the ball flies. The guy has an extremely disciplined eye and the quickest hands around. Put that together and you have a home run king.

Jason

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Posted By: jay behrens

Judge, don't worry, you will be attacked, and when you least expect it

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: identify7

Bonds has neither the most HRs per at bat, per month, per game, inning, nor lifetime records. The only thing which he has achieved is most HRs/season. This is hardly the basis for a credential such as
"the best home run hitter of all time". Heck, he is barely a .600 slugger and .300 hitter lifetime. He would be lucky to be mentioned among the top ten sluggers.

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Posted By: Jason

Then you name me 10 better sluggers. I will give you Ruth......give me 9 more.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My last word(s) on the subject is the steroid era gives one greater appreceation for Ruth's and Aaron's career home run totals. Even with the steroids and monster single-seasons, Aaron's record has yet to be broken. That a modern player would require so much medical assistance and law breaking to pass Aaron's or Ruth's totals, says how great their career totals are.

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Posted By: Jason

Ruth, Bonds, Pujols, Aaron in that order. There are your top 4 power hitters.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I'd put Gehrig ahead of Bonds. He had five seasons with over 400 total bases and you have to figure if his life wasn't cut short he'd probably have over 600 life time homeruns. If that wasn't slugging then I don't know what is....

Considering all stats and ignoring the fact that Bonds "might not have" (hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha) taken steroids I would have to include him in a list of the top 10 based on his total career numbers. Those past few seasons have pushed him way up there. Holy crap, two seasons with a SA greater than .800 and another season at .799 ----- whoa, that's incredible!

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Posted By: Joe_G.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Barry-Bonds-integrity_W0QQitemZ8784000459QQcategoryZ25150QQssP ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Since eBay killed the auction, here is what it stated:

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This bottle holds all that remains of Barry Bonds integrity. Through an exhaustive search I have managed to capture and place in this bottle the remainder of his integrity. Since repeated claims of his illegal use of steroids, human growth hormones and other drug cocktails it was no easy task. After lengthy interviews with friends, sports reporters, doctors, ex misstresses and team mates past and present...I can declare this bottle contains all of what is left of his integrity. Ex team mate Jeff Kent remarked, "Gee. I am surprised that didn't fit into a much smaller bottle. Maybe something the size of a nandrolone vial."

The successful high bidder will recieve this bottle. A Barry Bonds picture reproduction and a "faux" Barry Bonds autograph. High bidder pays all costs of shipping, handling and insurance.

----------------------------------------------------------------

It received over 300 hits in a matter of minutes likely due to ESPN radio's mention of it.

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Posted By: jay behrens

That's funny. Wish I had thought of it. I'm sure we will be seeing all kinds of similar auctions now.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: identify7

I dunno Jason, do you really think Bonds has accomplished much? I think that he may, but time will tell. I remember Mantle sacrificing his career .300 BA in his quest to surpass Foxx in total HRs. What a futile effort! Mantle was no where near the slugger that the Beast was, unless Foxx had to hit lefty; and even then I am not sure. I wonder whether Bonds will make a similar sacrifice in his yet unidentified quests. He is a borderline .300 hitter now, and he just recently has been knocking on the door of the .600 sluggers club.

So far, Greenberg, Foxx, Williams, Ruth and Gehrig are not answering the door.

As far as sluggers, you have got to like a guy like Cravath. There is a player who averaged over 20 HRs a season for (I think) three straight years; back when no one was hitting HRs - the early teens.

Not similarly, it is difficult (for me, anyway) to like McGwire. But that he is the most productive home run generator ever is a matter of record.

Certainly home runs are marks of a slugger, but how about triples? You have to recognize that Crawford and Cobb are in the top three lifetime in both triples and inside-the-park homeruns. Come on now, tell me that is not impressive!

Of them all tho, I've always liked Musial and Medwick who hit doubles, triples and homeruns freely. I guess that I prefer them because their statistics are fairly recent. Bur I know that Jackson and Hornsby were better hitters.

Out of this pile of talented athletes, only McGwire I consider in the same vein as Bonds (pun intended). Barry may end up among the .600 club, but he will have to stop playing before he qualifies. Or maybe he wants 800 lifetime HRs more. It will be interesting, even if he quits before the '06 season. That is probably his best move.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Uhg! How can you say Bonds and Mac are the same type of player? Mac was all or nothing, literally. Bonds could actually hit for average. And let's not forget the speed he used to have. Even Dave Kingman was a better all around hitter Mac. Kingman is proabably the closest comperable to Mac there is.

jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: identify7

One way to rate a home run hitter is by how frequently he hits homeruns. Nobody has ever hit homeruns as frequently as McGwire, over his career.

Recognizing this statistic does not mean that I like McGwire. It only means that in a discussion about sluggers, the most prolific home run hitter will always come up, as will the player with the most lifetime HRs (even if he also hit into the most DPs lifetime).

Edited to add:

I hear the Judge is gonna get post #300 also.

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Posted By: howard

Jay, were you serious in comparing McGwire to Kingman? Big Mac's slugging % and OBP were both about 100 points higher than Kingmans. Even taking into account the different eras that is a huge difference. I would say that Harmon Killebrew is much more comparable to McGwire.

Identify7, you rightfully take into account the era in which Cravath played but you should do the same when comparing Mantle to Foxx. Don't you think that if Mantle had played in the late 20's and the 30's that his #'s would be significantly better. Also, Cravath played in the Baker Bowl, maybe the best hitters park ever. I would guess that his home/road splits are something like Larry Walkers or Todd Heltons.

Howard

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Any list of top 3 sluggers missing Teddy Ballgame is just wrong.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'll stand by Kingman being a much better comperable. Killer was capable of hitting some doubles and triples and stole the occasional base. Plus, he could play some defense. Kingman was pretty much an all or nothing hitter like Mac.

Just looked at the comps on B-R, Thome is 1, Canseco 2, Killer 3, Kingman 10. I'll have to look later what they use to determine comps, since Thome and Canseco don't seem to make on the surface.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: howard

Well, if you want to consider Killebrew's 19 to 12 advantage over Mac in SBs I guess you win that one. Of course, Mac was only caught 8 times to Killer's 18. They hit doubles and triples at about the same rate, which is to say almost never and if Killer was capable of playing a little D he sure did a good job of hiding it for 22 years. McGwire, on the other hand, actually won a gold glove.

I didn't mean to make this a Killer vs. Big Mac thing. I think they were very similar players. Both were big slow guys that hit a lot of HRs, walked a ton and not much else.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Killer could actually play defense. He came up as a 2B, moved to 3B and then 1B. We all know that GG are rarely given to the true defensive wizrds. PLayers like Gary Pettis that didn't hit much are a rarity when comes to winning GGs. I watched Mac play in Oakland from 1987-90 and to say he was brutal at his position is kind.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: identify7

Howard: Cravath being a right handed hitter really could not take as much advantage of the Bakers Bowl's short right field dimension (even 15' shorter than Yankee Stadium), as a lefty could.

And to answer your question of "could Mantle have hit better in the '20s and '30s"? I dunno. Hornsby and Ruth found those years best, but Cobb and Wagner seemed to do better even earlier. How about the teens? Mantle and Cravath a one two punch on the Phillies - short right field wall - just right for Mantle.

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Posted By: howard

Good point Identify. I've always liked Cravath but Mantle has always been my favorite. I wonder if Mantle would have batted lefty all the time if he played in the Baker Bowl.

Jay, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...the board would be pretty boring if everyone held the same opinions.

Cheers, guys.

Howard

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Posted By: jay behrens

retrosheet should have the home road splits for Cravath so you can see how much he benefited from the Baker Bowl

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: identify7

Howard: I never liked Mantle. He always seemed to fail when the chips were down.

Now I realize that a top hitter in a triple crown season will probably fail to get a hit about two out of three tries, and will only hit a HR 10% of the time, but it seemed that Mantle only did something worthwhile when it wasn't worthwhile.

He is a very popular player, maybe it is just me. I didn't like Ford either. He was the prima donna. It seemed like he only pitched if everything was right. Now I know that was not always true, because at least one year he had 25 wins (I think). And you can't get to that level by being selective about when you start. But was that only one year?

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Posted By: howard

It seems to me that when someone wants to criticize a player with impeccable stats they resort to things which are difficult to define such as clutch ability. Somehow or other the Yankees won year after year with Mantle as their best player and Ford as their best pitcher even though it "seemed" they only contributed when it didn't count. I assume you know the stats so I won't bother with them except for this:

When Stengel managed the Yankees he often held Ford back so he could use him against the tougher teams and sometimes used him in relief in crucial spots. As a result Ford rarely had 30 or more starts in a season but still managed to win 18 or 19 games a couple of times. When Ralph Houk and then Yogi became managers they gave Ford the ball 35 to 39 games a season and he averaged 20 wins for the last five seasons of his career.

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Posted By: Jason

Mantle is not even in the top 30 greatest players of all time. Maybe.......and I stress MAYBE in the top 50-100.

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Posted By: Brian

Jason,

Who are the 49-99 players better than Mantle? I'd love to see that list...

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Posted By: Brian

<<"The reason we filed in the lawsuit in the simplest terms possible is to prevent the authors from promoting themselves and profiting from illegal conduct," Rains told The Associated Press on Thursday.
He said laws prohibit people from possessing grand jury materials unless they are unsealed and said authors Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, both also reporters for the Chronicle, "have made a complete farce of the criminal justice system." >>

Bonds sues Shadow's authors. He sues because he believes they have broken laws regarding grand jury materials.

He doesn't sue because what they are saying about him is incorrect... Hmmmmm.

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Posted By: John Kal

I saw a good deal of Mantle live or on TV. Howard, there was a good deal of talk that Mantle was such a good right handed hitter that he might stop batting left handed. I don't know what the stats are but I remember he had greater power from the right side. When he came up, he was considered maybe the greatest prospect of all time; then he tripped over the sprinkler and tore up his knee which cost him some of his speed (in 1951?). Jason, his placement in the all-time list would be around #5. My top 10 list of non-pitchers: Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Williams, Mantle, Mays, Joe D, Josh Gibson, Musial, Gehrig. I have a video of the '52 World Series and Mantle was very clutch: also, even his practice swings from the right side were one-of-a-kind powerful. No substances, just talent.

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Posted By: howard

Thanks, Jon. I could only find his lefty/righty splits from 1959 on but they do indicate that he was significantly better as a right handed hitter. His BA is much higher at .314 to .268. The HR rates are similar but I'd imagine that was due to the higher degree of difficulty for a righty power hitter in Yankee Stadium as compared to that for a lefty.

Jay, thanks for the retosheet tip. Unfortunately it only has Cravath's home/road split for the 1915 world series (one for eight in both venues, in case you were wondering).

Howard

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Posted By: Jason

OK maybe I give you top 50, but he definitely was not in the top 30. He was definitely a great player but not one of the 30 best. I know a similar Icon today (Jeter). He was lucky enough to be on several WS teams so he had good timing. Obviously could not hit like Mantle, but I would say Jeter isnt in the top 30-50 best players today, just like Mantle is not in the top 30 of all time.

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Posted By: John Kal

Jason, how 'bout you give us your top 10 non-pitchers.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Players that I'd rank ahead of Mantle: Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Bonds, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, Lajoie, Gehrig, Gibson and half a dozen or more NeLers, Delahanty, Brouthers, Foxx, Pujols. I'm real tempted to put Helton, Manny and Vlad on the list too.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Just read the article about Bonds lawsuit. I'm all for investigative journalism, but breaking the shouldn't be part of the investigation. Especially when what you are investigating is supposed to be illegal too. I know that leaking of sealed testimony is done all the time, but it's illegal for a reason and it's about time the people that ignore this are taken to task for it.

After all this, I think it's time for me to go find a copy of Canseco's book and read it. There is probably a lot more truth there than in this new book and I'mpretty sure none ofthe info in Canseco's book was obtained illegally.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

seems to me that what Bonds should be pissed about is inaccurate facts, not how accurate facts came to light. He is trying to get a prior restraint on a publication--he will lose...badly.

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Posted By: jay behrens

No doubt, this lawsuit should have been brought immediately after the initial article was published.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Brian

Adam,

That is exactly my point -- the author's means or motives might not be pure BUT that doesn't mean that what they are saying is false.

The same allegations were made of Canseco when his book was published (profiteer, turn coat, criminal, opportunist, scumbag, he wanted revenge on baseball, etc.). While all of these were true, the content in the book is proving to be true also.

If the content of the new book were incorrect or false, Bonds would be suing on different grounds...

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Posted By: Jason

I dont have time to compile a complete list but a few are.....Ruth, Clemente, Bonds, Sosa, Pujols, Mays, Gibson, Guerrero, Palmeiro, Williams, Griffey, Aaron, Foxx, Wagner, Cobb,.....there is atleat half without really thinking about it.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Yuck!!! Palmiero?!?! Give me a break. A solid performer, but not a game changer. I hate Mantle, but even I don't dislike him that much to rate hium below Raffy. I'd probably put Mantle ahead of Jr too. If you keep coming up with more players like Palmiero, you may not convince too many people of your position.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Brian

"We are seeking to have the credibility and integrity of the grand jury proceeding restored," Bonds lawyer Alison Berry Wilkinson told the judge during a 40-minute hearing in San Francisco County Superior Court.




Too bad Bonds' lawyer isn't concerned with the credibility and integrity of her client...

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Posted By: Jason

OK maybe Plameiro was not better but he was equal.......Jr. is better than Mick.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Palmiero is not the equal of Mantle in any way, shape form except that he may have as good or better counting stats only because his career lasted longer. Palmiero is a boarderline HOFer, Mantle is a no-brainer.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Anson

Clearly biased, but Harry Heilmann was a better hitter than Mantle IMHO. I would add Jax, Eddie Collins, Frank Robinson, and Banks to the list.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

BONDS' SUIT ON DECK
BY T.J. QUINN
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER
Friday, March 24th, 2006

If Barry Bonds' lawyer asks a judge this morning to seize the profits from the explosive new book "Game of Shadows," the authors' attorneys will be waiting on the courthouse steps to fire back with a lawsuit of their own.

"He has no right to anyone's profits and he has no right to stop information," Eve Burton, general counsel for the Hearst Corporation, which owns the San Francisco Chronicle, told the Daily News yesterday. "I think his chances of success are close to zero."

Michael Rains, Bonds' attorney, said yesterday he will seek a temporary restraining order against the Chronicle and reporters Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, who co-authored the book, publisher Gotham Books, and Sports Illustrated, which published an excerpt of "Shadows" two weeks ago.

Notably, the suit Rains is expected to file in California Superior Court in San Francisco is not for libel. Rather than challenge the facts in the book, Bonds' lawsuit is expected to argue that the writers got their information - including secret grand-jury testimony and investigators' notes - illegally. He wants an injunction to stop sales of the book and seize all profits from it.

The authors will countersue under California's strong anti-SLAPP ("strategic lawsuit against public participation") statute, which prevents parties from using the courts to stifle free speech. Generally the law is used to keep large corporations from suing critics to silence them.

Defendants suspect Rains is simply trying to find some way to let his client save face.
"He has to be able to say to his buddies, 'I sued 'em,' in order to resurrect his reputation," said a lawyer for one of the defendants, speaking on the condition of anonymity. "It's hard to win a libel case when the story's right."
The book's publishers also offered unconditional support for the authors.
"We at Gotham Books are shocked that Barry Bonds would take such a foolish step," Gotham said in a statement. "Any respected First Amendment lawyer in America knows that his claim is nonsense."

The book, released yesterday, says that Bonds started taking hardcore steroids and human growth hormone before the 1999 season, contradicting claims that he unknowingly took steroids provided by the BALCO lab.

Adam Warshaw, a California business and real estate attorney who has successfully sued under the SLAPP statute, said Bonds' lawsuit could easily backfire.

"(The court) is going to look at whether there's truth to these accusations. Frankly, the guy's opening a real can of worms because he's going to have to testify about whether he's done these things," Warshaw said. "It sounds to me (like Bonds is saying), 'Do something, come up with something, can't you do something to stop this?'"

Burton said that Bonds himself was recently partnered with the Chronicle in a SLAPP suit against one of his former physicians, Andrew Carver, who sued Bonds and the paper.
"We actually won that case with (Bonds) and he's about to deposit a check for it," she said.

As for the brewing legal battle, she said, "This type of litigation does not strike me as ringing with validity."

If Rains files the lawsuit today, then Hearst's attorneys will immediately file theirs, whether Bonds' request is successful or not.

Fainaru-Wada, who appeared on Sportsnet New York TV's "Daily News Live" yesterday, said he isn't worried about any legal challenges.

"We fully stand behind the reporting for the book and are confident in its accuracy," he said.

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Posted By: davidcyclebackl

For Bonds, this is a horrible lawsuit for several reasons. First, he and his
lawyers will look foolish legally. Second, his suit will increase sales of the book
and scrutiny on him. Third, rightly or wrongly, this suit will give the general
public the notion that he thinks the facts in the book are largely accurate. Fourth,
it makes him look desperate.

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Posted By: jay behrens

nice, a board member quoted in the article

Still sounds like a bunch of spin from both sides. Sadly, common sense and the law rarely meet and common sense says that the authors should not be able profit from the illegally gained info from the grand jury testimony. It shouldn't really matter whether they are the ones that broke the seal or not. Even if they didn't commit the original crime, you know that they paid well for this information. This jsut leads to more people committing crimes to profit from it.

Jay

WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.