Negro Leagues HOF ballot

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

The Negro Leagues HOF ballot is out. Pretty interesting:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051121&content_id=1270903&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb>

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051121&content_id=1270893&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Elections will be announced February 27th, 2006.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Rhys

You never know who will be elected on votes like this. Ryan knows more than me about the Negro Leagues but I have a hunch that this is the year for the first female baseball hall of famer. I am thinking Effa Manley will be a baseball Hall of Famer by the end of Winter. There are probably more worthy candidates, but the Hall would get some good publicity from this and nobody would object. I would personally vote for Cristobal Torriente, but I would be willing to place even money on Effa Manley.

Rhys

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Posted By: Chad

As well as Cum Posey. Which makes me wonder where Gus Greenlee is, too. I think Torriente, Hill, Mackey, O'Neill, Ray Brown and Charles Grant all have excellent chances. The question, really, is how many players on the ballot will the committee feel comfortable voting for? Mule Suttles is a shoo-in, too, I think. Dick Lundy I'm confident about as well. I'll be sacrificing goats to try to convince the committee to vote for Oms, but it's just wishful thinking on my part. This is really exciting stuff!

--Chad

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Posted By: Chad

Here's a card of one of her, um, "players." (At least according to Riley. An NLer at the National said Riley was full of s**t, tho, so take the gossip for what it's worth!)




--Chad

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Posted By: jay behrens

Looking at the list I am thinking that Sol White, Pete Hill, Torriente, Frank Grant, Buck O'Niel and Minnie Minoso have got to be leading candidates.

Does Frank Grant have a card?

Jay

If you can sue a band for making you want to commit suicide, can I sue Barry Manilow for turning me into a wuss in the 70s?

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Posted By: Matt Goebel

Surprising omissions-

Sam Bankhead
Wild Bill Wright
Nip Winters

Surprising inclusions-

William Bell
Bill Byrd
Red Parnell

The question now is how many will get in?

Matt

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Posted By: Chad

That one really sticks out for me.

--Chad

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Posted By: identify7

Hey, I don't know as much about the candidates as many of you, but to me Willard Brown really stands out.

He was among the first group of Negro Leaguers to make it to the "bigs" in 1947.

He was the first Black American ever To HR in MLB.

And that was no fluke. He hit over 100 HRs in Puerto Rico and a similar amount in the minors in addition to a reported 500+ HRs for the KC Monarchs.

He only got to play in 21 games with the Browns before he was released (batted .179). Returned to the Negro Leagues; batted .374, and finished his career hitting .317 the following year, giving him an overall Negro League .352 batting average to go with his home runs.

Strong arguements for a man who weilded a 40 ounce bat, with authority.

Oh, did I tell you he could run?


Edited to correct one obvious grammatical blunder.

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

Early blackball reps. (mostly prior to the Negro Leagues)

Pete Hill (player)
Sol (pioneer, publisher, historian and he played a bit too)

Players (Mostly 20's)

Torrienti
Mendez

Players Pre WWII (mostly 1930's)

Mule Suttles (my first choice overall)
Biz Mackey

Post WWII

Orestes "Minnie" Minoso (Monte Irvin type candidate but more major league than negro league value)
Buck O'Neill (less for playing than everything else)

--------
I don't really think Effa Manley is as important as Cum Posie as an owner/organizer etc (but she is a "sexier" choice for the voters)

I'd like to hear from the "experts" (Ryan, Matt, Andy etc. )on who they would select)
I don't know how many their should be.... part of me thinks it should be spaced out so that each choice gets more attention but... is that a good reason to make people wait even longer (this applies especially to Minoso and O'Neill who are still living).

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Posted By: Andy Baran

If I were voting, these are the players that I would include:

PRE-NEGRO LEAGUES
* I think the committee got this one right. Every player that made the cut deserves to be in the hall. Those players are as follows:
- Frank Grant
- Pete Hill
- Grant Johnson
- Jose Mendez
- Spot Poles
- Dick Redding
- Louis Santop
- Ben Taylor
- Sol White
Additionally, I think 2 other players from the era deserve to be inducted, but they didn't make the cut:
- Bud Fowler
- George Stovey

NEGRO LEAGUES:
* In my opinion, there are 7 players who are significantly above the rest of the candidates. These are the players that I would vote for (in alphabetical order):
- John Beckwith
- Ray Brown
- Willard Brown
- Mule Suttles
- Cristobal Torriente
- Biz Mackey
- Jud Wilson

Also, both Effa Manley and Cum Posey deserve to be enshrined, as well as Gus Greenlee, who somehow missed the cut.

Minnie Minoso also deserves to be enshrined in the Hall of Fame. However, he does not deserve it for his Negro League career. It was just too short, and doesn't compare with players such as Monte Irvin and Larry Doby who split time between the Negro Leagues and the Majors. Minoso's Major League career is Hall worthy on its own merits, his Negro League career is not even close.

Lastly, I am torn as to whether or not I would vote for Buck O'Neil. He clearly deserves to be enshrined for his contributions to baseball, but I don't feel he is deserving for his play on the field. He was a very good player, not a hall of fame player. There are many players on the list (both the original 93 and final 39) that were more skilled ball players than O'Neil.

With all of this being said, I would be very disappointed if any of the players that I mentioned were not elected, and would not have an issue with others that I didn't mention getting in, as long it was not at the cost of one of these elite players.

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Posted By: Matt Goebel

I would vote for the following:

-These guys would be glaring omissions if they were not elected

C Torriente
P Hill
B Mackey
J Wilson
M Suttles
W Brown
D Lundy
D Redding

-Just a notch below

G Johnson
L Santop
J Beckwith
C Brewer
R Brown

-Personal favorites

J Mendez
D Moore
O Marcelle
A Oms
R Dixon

-If you want an executive

C Posey


I would echo Andy's thoughts on Minoso and O'Neill. Minoso should be in, but definitely not as a Negro Leaguer. Buck O'Neill should be in as an ambassador for his overall contribution to baseball history, but not at the expense of a deserving player.

My understanding is that this is a one-shot deal, if they don't get in on this ballott then they don't ever get in, so I hope they do the right thing and elect a large group of these great ballplayers.

Matt

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Posted By: Chad

It would be easier to list the guys I woudn't vote for, but here it goes:

Must vote for at the penalty of showering with Rosie O'Donnel

1. John Beckwith
2. Ray Brown (It's silly he's not already in)
3. Willard Brown
4. John Donaldson
5. Biz Mackey (the negro leagues had GREAT catchers.)
6. Cum Posey
7. Mule Suttles
8. Cristobal Torriente (If he doesn't get in, the whole thing is a sham.)
9. Jud Wilson
10. Frank Grant
11. Pete Hill!!!!!!!!!
12. Home Run Johnson
13. Dick Redding
14. Louis Santop (another guy that should ahve been in long ago)

Should vote for under penalty of an extra millenium or two in purgatory:

1. Newt Allen (quite possibly the best 2ndbaseman in NL history)
2. Chet Brewer
3. Rap Dixon
4. Dick Lundy
5. Effa Manley
6. Oliver Marcell
7. Dobie Moore (if he hadn't gotten hurt, he'd be a legend)
8. Alejandro Oms (the underdog candidate I'm rooting for the most)
9. Alex Pompez
10. George Scales
11. Ben Taylor
12. J.L. Wilkinson
13. Jose Mendez (scared Ty Cobb right back into the safe world of segregated baseball)
14. Spot Poles

Guys who deserve votes but you have to work a little for the justification (just a little tho!):

1. Andy Cooper (just a fine baseball man, good pitcher, good manager. Kind of like Al Lopez)
2. Minnie Minoso (if getting a couple of years NL credit helps finaly get him in, then I'm all for it)
3. Buck O'Neill (the current face of the Negro Leagues. A lot of different pieces make him worthy.)
4. Candy Jim Taylor (as a player and manager. Think Joe Torre.)
5. C.I. Taylor
6. Sol White (never underestimate the power of literature! Plus he could play)

There ya go. It's a liberal ballot, but I'm of the mind that thye could let EVERYONE on the ballot in and I'd be ok with that.

--Chad

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

This one shot, in or out, voting system is interesting. However, I think it may end up costing some of the candidates admission to the HOF. In that regard, I wonder if there won't be some hesitance to elect a large number of candidates, whether or not they are deserving. In terms of sheer numbers, the 1945/46 HOF elections are the closest thing to this election that the HOF has ever experienced and not even then did 20 people get elected. I think that may pose a problem for the electors here. I hope I'm wrong and that every candidate gets a fair shot based solely on merit.

With that being said, I'd give the nod to Beckwith, Raymond Brown, Willard Brown, John Donaldson, Mackey, Posey, Suttles, Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Grant Johnson, Dick Redding, Luis Santop, Chet Brewer, Dick Lundy, Oliver Marcelle, Ben Taylor, George Scales, Jose Mendez, Spottswood Poles, J.L. Wilkinson, Sol White, Dobie Moore (although I wonder how he became eligible with only 6 years of playing time before his injury), Oms and Rap Dixon. I agree with Andy and Matt that Minoso and O'Neill deserve election, but not necessarily as Negro League players. That's 26 out of the 39, which I suppose means that the winnowing process was pretty good.

Kenny Cole

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Posted By: Chad

Is that they should elect a lot of people on this ballot. I hope they do. If this is a one time shot, then at least 15 should get in. If they only elect 3 or 4, as I fear, then I hope there's enough pressure for them to revisit the process. Of course, I don't stop writing hate mail until Oms is in regardless. If Matt is nice to me I'll include Oliver Marcell in my campaign of HOF voter intimidation.

--Chad

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Here's a checklist of cards that exist for everyone on the ballot:

http://www.cubanbaseballcards.com/NegroHOFballot.html

I'll post my personal picks shortly, but my guess is that around 13-16 guys (and gals) will be elected.

Better run out and pick up those 1909 Cabanas Pete Hill rookies while their still cheap!

-Ryan

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with the list of 39 potential candidates. There will always be a few that were missed and a few that have no business being there, but I only found 2 on the list that were actually offensive. Red Parnell has no businees on this list, but I imagine it will make more sense once we see his statistics. Minoso being on a list of Negro Leaguers is an absolute joke. I believe he should be in the Hall of Fame for his entire baseball career, but absolutely not as a Negro Leaguer. I hope he doesn't get in this way. That being said here are my picks:


Ones I’d definitely vote for:

John Beckwith
Chet Brewer
Raymond Brown
Willard Brown
John Donaldson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Grant Johnson
Biz Mackey
Effa Manley (exec.)
Buck O’Neil (not as a player)
Spot Poles
Cum Posey (exec.)
Dick Redding
Louis Santop
Mule Suttles
Ben Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
J. L. Wilkinson (exec.)
Jud Wilson
--

Ones I consider on the bubble and would probably also vote for:

Sammy T. Hughes
Dick Lundy
Oliver Marcelle
Jose Mendez
Alejandro Oms
C. I. Taylor (manager)
--

Ones I wouldn’t vote for:

Newt Allen
William Bell
Bill Byrd
Andy Cooper
Rap Dixon
Fats Jenkins
Minnie Minoso
Dobie Moore (absolutely a HOF player, but not enough years)
Red Parnell
Alejandro Pompez
George Scales
Candy Jim Taylor
Sol White (good player, good book, not a HOFer)
--

My personal favorites:

1. Chet Brewer
2. Willard Brown
3. Raymond Brown
4. Cristobal Torriente
5. Oliver Marcelle
6. Alejandro Oms
--


Out of a list of 39, only 13 are not Hall-worthy, in my opinion. All in all, the screening committee did an excellent job. Hopefully the voting committee will, too.

-Ryan

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Posted By: jay behrens

A somewhat serious question here. If Cum Posey get elected to the HOF, is that first name going to make past the porno/bad language filters that are set up on many public access computers and will that mean you wouldn't be able to view the BBHOF site others which would have that name on it?

Jay

If you can sue a band for making you want to commit suicide, can I sue Barry Manilow for turning me into a wuss in the 70s?

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

while there's a newer book out on Effa, the book at the following link is a very nice one. TOUGH to get a copy of and if anyone's looking for an Effa signature, this one is about $500 less than what other people I've seen on her. I purchased two copies of this book about 15 years ago for about $5.00 each. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I have one unsoiled and another signed by 10-15 negro league stars.

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=587745330&searchurl=an%3Deffa%2Bmanley%26y%3D15%26tn%3Dnegro %2Bbaseball%26x%3D29
From R. Plapinger--very well known baseball book dealer