Black Swamp Find?

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I think Andrew enjoys the "We open up your slab, let you fix flaws, then we reslab at a higher grade while you wait" service that SGC provides.

Well Daryl if you can provide proof of this accusation I would be more than happy to consider it against the many altered high grade PSA cards out there.

So what you are saying Glyn is that SGC is just like PSA. They cater to their high end dealers and cards, and assign false grades to the cards for those submitters to increase their profits but not SGC's. So they do the same thing as the Young collection, the McNall Wagner, the now graded PSA 10 Wagner, as well as an extremely high number of others.


I would love to start my own service

[Matthew H]

Andrew, there's a card slabber on eBay right now, only 3k

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Well Daryl if you can provide proof of this accusation I would be more than happy to consider it against the many altered high grade PSA cards out there.

I think Daryl is referring to this post on the board here where a mark was erased in front of SGC graders, and the card went from SGC 20 to SGC 40: Link

[pcoz]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think Daryl is referring to this post on the board here where a mark was erased in front of SGC graders, and the card went from SGC 20 to SGC 40: Link

That was my card and we beat this thing to death recently. Almost 90% had no problem and didn't consider that altering a card. As far as The Black Swamp Find, I think a PSA 10 for that card is a joke. SGC wouldn't grade that over an 8. 8.5 at best. It's a beautiful card, but no way a 10. I can tell you I have equally as many SGC as PSA cards, and there are some PSA 5's I have that would be SGC 40's. As it relates to my caramel collection, SGC is unquestionably more accurate and would love to see how they'd grade this "Find".

Removing a faint pencil mark is just like soaking paper off a card. Sounds like your argument is validated by a 90% margin saying it wasn't altering. That's was great customer service IMO.

[glynparson]

that said SGC should not have done that. Plus they lay down corners in the grading room for many submitters at SGC and I do think that is altering.

[pcoz]

Originally Posted by glynparson

that said SGC should not have done that. Plus they lay down corners in the grading room for many submitters at SGC and I do think that is altering.

Glyn, I sat with Earl Johnson out in their lobby, not Bob Luce or Scott in their grading room, who are their graders removing that pencil mark. Not sure about them putting corners in the grading room for submitters. Either way, a card is a card and I trust SGC more than PSA. I'm sure the Swamp Find will bring "10" money, but IMO it's not accurately graded. Whoever submitted that card and all the other "Swamp Find" E98's(which are now showing up on the PSA Pop Report), took a lot off the table for themselves diluting the market with all these new "high" grades. I would've gotten one at a time graded/sold and dripped them on the market instead of getting them all graded at once. 9 Red Chief Meyers PSA 9's???

[Matthew H]

Sounds like an amazing find!

[Jacklitsch]

9 Red Chief Meyers PSA 9's???

That's nuts! What a way to dilute the value!

Originally Posted by Matthew H

Andrew, there's a card slabber on eBay right now, only 3k

Yeah but at this point I could use that towards the software program for the damn scanner I have been messing with for the last 5+ yrs(has been longer) for grading cards. The slab is another story. I wouldn't be able to use that machine anyways because they vibrate and can cause damage. Some day I will be able to have all the cards I want. Then I have to give them back to the guys that sent them to me

[4815162342]

From the Heritage catalog (thanks to "mountaingirl" who notified me of this via PM):

"1910 E98 "Set of 30" Baseball Near Set (27/30) - The Best of the Black Swamp Find! Like the Phoenix rising from the flame fueled with new life, so too from an area in Ohio known as the Black Swamp arose a virtually pristine and untouched collection of century old E98 caramel baseball cards. The Black Swamp Find is a discovery that will never be equaled or surpassed in the hobby. This is the ultimate "attic find" we all dream of coming across. For 100 years, the cards were nestled under a treasured doll house, we thankfully say completely forgotten about. There have been and will always finds of old baseball cards that which have the same roster of baseball greats contained here but what will make the "Black Swamp" pedigree so famous is the condition. This is the "Mile High" collection in baseball card form. They are virtually untouched and by all account came directly from the printer to the meat market run by the grandparents of our consignor. If every portrait was cut to precision, this would be an entirely near-mint to gem-mint array. Of the 30 players from the E98 series the collection offered 25 players in duplicate, a trio represented by a single example and two players (Lajoie and Walsh) mysteriously not represented. Names found include the greatest of the game including Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Chief Bender, Christy Mathewson, and Connie Mack plus Chance, Jennings, Evers, Bresnahan, Young plus others. Ironically, the unknowns have proven to be harder to find than the greats. Player after player, card after card, each a precious relic that takes you back in time. Currently, the finest E98 set known on any registry has an impressive GPA equal to 5.75. Factoring the lone qualified card as a "4", this presentation earns an unheard of GPA of 7.9! It would be so easy to go on but we will allow the next thousand words to be the image presented to your right."

[E93]

Being that Heritage's website is unsearchable and the worst in the hobby, can anyone provide a link. I just spent ten minutes trying to find it on their website and came up blank.
Thanks,
JimB

[calvindog]

Yeah, I couldn't find it either. Jim and I have about 9 degrees between us -- if only we had that 10th we'd be able to use Heritage's damn site. Unreal. What is with Heritage?

[glchen]

Linky

[oldjudge]

Do the pop reports numbers listed in the lot description include all the cards from the find? It was my impression that there were a couple of dozen extremely high grade examples each for most of the cards in the set. In my opinion, it would be extremely disingenuous on Heritage's part if the figures did not include all the cards from the find.

[CW]

Originally Posted by glchen

Linky

Thanks for posting that.

Looking at those cards... wow! It's like going back in time....

[ullmandds]

Thanks for posting the link that is the first time I saw all of those cards together amazing! What strikes me as odd obviously is the vast majority of cards that are red? So if all of these cards came from a store that was supposed to give them away... it would make sense that the colors were printed at different times and it just so happens that this store got almost all reds... very interesting!

[Matthew H]

Sheesh, I just got blinded by the white boarders! I'm guessing the Tinker and Jennings were part of the group represented by a single example...

Nothing against Heritage but it's funny how some auction descriptions will go on for days while this one somewhat leaves us in the dark.

[E93]

Those cards are mind-boggling! I am speechless!
JimB

[philliesphan]

Here is the PSA pop. report for the E98 set.

It does appear as if there may be a [small] number of additional cards out there, but the auction description does mention that there are two PSA 10 Kling's for example.

Notably, the Pop. report has many examples of a few cards:

Twelve Chief Meyers graded PSA 9 (and two graded PSA 10)
Eighteen Johnny Kling cards graded PSA 9
FIFTEEN TY COBB cards graded PSA 9.

Those numbers for those three players are even more extreme than the Toleteros Gibson. At this point, only a fool would pay up significant coin for one of the Cobbs.

M

[glchen]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Thanks for posting the link that is the first time I saw all of those cards together amazing! What strikes me as odd obviously is the vast majority of cards that are red? So if all of these cards came from a store that was supposed to give them away... it would make sense that the colors were printed at different times and it just so happens that this store got almost all reds... very interesting!

If you want some more color variations, here are some greens: Linky

[barrysloate]

What's interesting is high grade E98's, once considered quite rare, are now going to be relatively easy to find. You'll see some in every upcoming major auction. This group will continue to circulate for years to come. Nevertheless, an extraordinary group of cards.

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

What's interesting is high grade E98's, once considered quite rare, are now going to be relatively easy to find. You'll see some in every upcoming major auction. This group will continue to circulate for years to come. Nevertheless, an extraordinary group of cards.

Barry, to me this seems like a Mello Mints type of situation. Yes, there are three cards that will be profoundly easy to find in high grade. But, like the Mello Mint find, there is a huge skew of population here.

15 Ty Cobb PSA 9s? But no Bresnahan's, with the highest graded copy there a PSA 7 Lots of Johnny Klings, but no Miner Browns.

What I envision happening is that these high grade examples will most likely fall into type collectors runs. It will be interesting to see how these are filtered into the hobby, as surely this Heritage grouping is only round one, though it might represent the best and most complete run of the find.

[markf31]

I usually don't like to get involved in the grading arguments but I did just have one observation. As easlier in the thread people were pointing out the Wagner card's flaws as to why it should not be graded a 10 and while they are valid arguments my only question would be why do some issues get a pass on certain blemishes or conditions and yet we just accept them as the norm.

The glaring example that comes to mind for me are T205s and their gold borders. If you saw some of the boarder loss on other issues that you see on T205s the grades would be significantly lower, yet it seems we just accept them with the T205s. Just my two cents.

[three25hits]

Its nice to see how big the borders on E cards should be...

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by philliesphan

Here is the PSA pop. report for the E98 set.

It does appear as if there may be a [small] number of additional cards out there, but the auction description does mention that there are two PSA 10 Kling's for example.

Notably, the Pop. report has many examples of a few cards:

Twelve Chief Meyers graded PSA 9 (and two graded PSA 10)
Eighteen Johnny Kling cards graded PSA 9
FIFTEEN TY COBB cards graded PSA 9.

Those numbers for those three players are even more extreme than the Toleteros Gibson. At this point, only a fool would pay up significant coin for one of the Cobbs.

M

I can see how this would drive down the $ received for a PSA9 Cobb for this issue, but how much do you think it will depress the price? After all, it's still Cobb in a very high grade. What do you think is a realistic price for this card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yeah, I couldn't find it either. Jim and I have about 9 degrees between us -- if only we had that 10th we'd be able to use Heritage's damn site. Unreal. What is with Heritage?

Yes, 8 + 1 does equal 9.

[Tim Kindler]

Look everyone, before you kill me with responses...I'M NOT SAYING THESE E98s ARE FAKE....but no one has brought up the obvious question: Are these things really real. As much as some people hate TPG and PSA, I'm surprised no one has actually wondered in writing in this thread if they are indeed real. I've never posted in one of the many TPG or PSA bashing threads before (You can look it up!) so I have no grudge at all against PSA. I'm just simply finding all of these numerous 8s, 9s, and 10s hard to believe from E98s all of a sudden coming out of the woodwork. I would be lying if I said I didn't have my doubts just how old these E98s really are, even though I have absolutely no evidence to back up my suspicions other than TPG do make mistakes.
Tim Kindler

[ullmandds]

I don't know Tim...but looking at that hi res scan of Wags...the card sure looks real!!!!! If these have been hidden away, untouched for all these years...I believe it!!!! They sure look real to me?!

[ctownboy]

Tim,

I am not going to get into the TPG discussion or whether these cards are authentic or not. The first question I had was concerning the brief description. I read that these cards were found under a doll house in an attic and look like they just came from the printer.

So, my question is, were they found under the doll house in a box already cut OR were they found in uncut sheets and then cut at a later date?

Think about it; from the looks of it, these cards have mostly red backgrounds. If they were in uncut sheets up in the attic all of these years, then the top sheet would have taken most of the abuse from the doll house while the sheets underneath would have been protected.

Now, obviously the cards could have been cut at the printer and sent to the meat market where the owner put them in a box and then in an attic where they stayed all of these years. I don't know and would like to hear the whole story about how these cards were found.

David

[Cardboard Junkie]

Aloha, I find that I can tell fake cards for certain sometimes from a scan, but I can never tell for certain if a card is genuine or after factory cut from a scan.
With all of the atrocities we have seen with tpg (like the gretzgy wags) they can't be trusted to grade properly, or to recognize alterations.
I too would like to know who found them and the whole story...psa should know, they labled them as a special "find". Is TPG smart enough to recognize these as fakes if indeed they are? I think there might be enough demand for them to hold their price and maybe even increase because these are from the special black swamp fiasco What would they have got if seven oh seven submitted them? 11s and 12s.? rant rant rant etc Dave Pierson

[E93]

If they were uncut sheets there would not be 15 of one player and none of another. This is what a related E93 sheet looked like.


The two sets share several of the same player images. I think it is fair to assume that like the 30 card E93 set, the E98s sets were likely printed all on one sheet. Apparently the cards were found in a box bundled and tied in groups with twine according to the description on the Heritage site.

And as mentioned, the high res blowup scan reveals dot patters identical to known E98s and virtually all 1910 era lithography. According to experts it is a pattern that would be extremely difficult and costly to duplicate today. I think the likelihood that they are not real is almost zero. Just my opinion.
JimB

[barrysloate]

My guess is of course they are real, but I also find it almost impossible that so many of them have survived for a hundred years in such an incredible state of preservation. It almost seems too good to be true.

Should I say they're real and they're spectacular? I guess I just said it.

[4815162342]

They look real to me. Did the graders get a little 9 and 10 happy? Sure. Wouldn't you if you went from grading your 10,000th '89 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr. rookie card to grading a high stack of near-perfect E98s?

[Tim Kindler]

I guess what I was trying to get at is what Barry just said. I really have no reason to think that these are not real, but I guess I'm just a cynical person when it comes to believing in things that just seem too good to be true. This find just seems too good to be true, but cotton candy is, so I guess these are too!

[oldjudge]

Jim--Beautiful uncut panels

[pcoz]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Jim--Beautiful uncut panels

+1 Jim, beautiful!!

Regarding the Black Swamp cards....I wish PSA would update their pop report to give a true reading on how many cards were actually found. I'm still in amazement over the find and how sharp the cards are. It's nice to see the caramels get some attention.

[Matthew H]

I heard 600 had old put backs. Jk

Jim B = bad-a**!

[pcoz]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I heard 600 had old put backs. Jk

Jim B = bad-a**!

Lol I hope not on the OP's!!

[momof6]

What more of the story do you want to know? What else is there?

Oh, and the pop report has been updated.

[E93]

Thanks guys.

679 E98s in PSA 7 or better. Before this find the best E98 set on the registry averaged under a PSA6. They were notoriously among the tougher E cards to find in decent shape. This is crazy!
JimB

[ctownboy]

Jimb,

This is why, even if I had the money, I wouldn't go wild trying to have a set that ranked high on the set registry. As this collection points out again, all it takes is one find and you are in deep doo doo.

I can just imagine the collector who has spent his time and big money putting together the highest ranked set on the registry and now most, if not all, of their cards are lower ranked and less valuable.

David

[glchen]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Jimb,

This is why, even if I had the money, I wouldn't go wild trying to have a set that ranked high on the set registry. As this collection points out again, all it takes is one find and you are in deep doo doo.

I can just imagine the collector who has spent his time and big money putting together the highest ranked set on the registry and now most, if not all, of their cards are lower ranked and less valuable.

David

This could happen for anything in the hobby, however. There could be a find tomorrow for 100 PSA 7 Wagner's, and everyone who purchased a Wagner before would have their card value devalued. It is what it is. Maybe there will soon be a thread similar to the 1911 Sporting Life thread that is titled "It's amazing how cheap E98's have gotten!"

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by glchen

Maybe there will soon be a thread similar to the 1911 Sporting Life thread that is titled "It's amazing how cheap E98's have gotten!"

Do you think this find could/will affect all E98 values or mainly the previously higher/highest graded examples?

[pcoz]

I think it has to hurt the Reds. Maybe the lower graded E98's won't be affected much though. I think this set may be looked at differently moving forward, where the color backrounds matter more than in the past. Although there were Oranges/Greens found, they were to a much lesser degree than the Reds. The Blues should appreciate(don't think they found any). If this "Find" brings in more collectors/investors into the set to eat up the supply and create more demand, it could over time spur many to go for Master sets and actually help the values. At the end of the day, you still have less than 100 cards of each player on average between all the grading companies, and that still isn't plentiful.

[barrysloate]

For somebody to have so many E98's in such high grade suggests the family had some connection to the company that printed them. It would seem impossible to get the many, and have them that sharp, by picking them up one or two at a time as they were originally distributed.

Yes, the big loser here is the collector who currently has the #1 set on the registry. He won't slip one place, he may fall out of the top ten. That's an occupational hazard, I guess.

While there are enough collectors to absorb all these cards, it will be interesting to see at what price level they settle, and also how often they recirculate. Will it be possible in the future to find an auction that doesn't have a good offering of high grade E98? Probably not.

Nonetheless, this is a great story and is certainly among the all time great original finds.

[t206blogcom]

These cards are beautiful and I agree the Wagner probably isn't a Gem 10 due to corner issues - still a fantastic card though!

What I don't understand is how PSA slabbed the cards. If they were all part of one big find, I'm assuming they'd be sent off for grading at the same time? If so, then why is one card not in a tobacco-sized holder (I think the Young)? To me, that comes off as completely tacky.

I'm also not a fan of PSA holders, mainly because of the border plastic that is smooth on some while wavy on others.

Both of these issues take away from the beauty of this set. PSA should have paid more attention to quality control (in addition to getting the grading correct). If I owned the set, I'd request PSA to reslab them or send them off to SGC. JMO.

[Leon]

Many years ago (20+) there was a find of St.Louis E92 Nadja cards. They are the ones that can still be found in fairly high grade (5-6) for not a lot of money. I will guess the same thing will happen to at least the red colored E98s. Also, there could be a spike in prices of the other colors as more folks will inevitably obtain these Reds and more interest in the whole series will be generated.

[barrysloate]

There is no question more people will be collecting E98's in the future. They will now be attainable in all grades from off condition to pristine. There will be lots of upgrading, lots of new collectors. In that respect the market is fluid. But the prices will undoubtedly be lower than for other high grade caramel cards.

[pcoz]

There is no doubt these were never put into caramels. Barry I agree there was a connection between the owner of these cards and the maker of these cards. There is no way in the world someone collected 43 Bridwell's in 8 or better condition, or 15 Cobb's in a 9. With 700 cards recently added to the PSA Pop report from the "Find", maybe we'll inevitably find out who the producer of the cards were as well. Great story, but I'm sure there's more to the come....