O/T 2012 Hall of fame. your vote?

[GrayGhost]

This may have been done before. or Leon can move it, but who you guys think will get in next year?

I think it will be Larkin for sure, w Bagwell making strides and Morris around the same pctg.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2012.shtml

[Robextend]

Can we just skip to 2013?

[bbcard1]

As for me, I would take Larkin, Bags and Lee Smith. I honestly think Lee Smith's bland name hurts him...had he been named Rollie Fingers, he would have been in some time ago.

It would not be a travesty for Raines and Morris to get in. They are better than a lot of folks who are already there and had a sustained period of excellence. Raines at least for a year or two was the best player in the game.

Using the "They are somewhere toward the middle if you consider all the players who are already in there" measuring stick, add Trammell, McGriff, Walker...

McGwire and Palmeiro are clearly good enough...but there's THAT problem.

If you were to line up all the Hall of Fame catchers (Bench, Berra, Bresnahan, Campy, Carter, Cochrane, Dickey, Ewing, Ferrell, Fisk, Hartnett, Lopez, Lombardi, Schalk) where would Lopez rank...not saying he's a hall of famer, but he wouldn't be the worst.

Larkin only.

Didn't the US House of Reprehensibles, er Representatives pass a resolution in 1999 to have Joe Jackson's lifetime ban rescinded? At the time I thought Bud Selig said he would reexamine the issue. I have not heard a word since.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Another vote for Larkin only here........

[oldjudge]

Maybe Larkin (marginal), maybe Bernie Williams (also marginal). Would not have a problem if no one got in.

[packs]

I'd like to see McGriff get more credit. As far as I know those were 493 legitimate home runs.

[mannybb24]

Sounds like 2012 would be a good year to finally get Buck O'Neil and a few other Negro Leaguers a plaque in Cooperstown.

[packs]

I think that vote would have to come from the Veterans Committee, right? Not sure if they're voting this year.

[SteveMitchell]

This system has been applied only to those receiving votes in the 2011 election, and, for a couple of reasons, it has been limited to the top eight vote-getters. Using Baseball-Reference.com's standards (HOFm, HOFs and WAR); awarding 1 point for the best total, 2 for second best, etc.; and then tallying the totals with the man receiving the lowest total ranking first, etc., the results are:

1. Jeff Bagwell .... 3 points (the best possible score)
2. Larry Walker ... 7 points
3. EDGAR MARTINEZ! ... 11 points
4. Barry Larkin ... 12 points
5T. Tim Raines ... 18 points
5T. Alan Trammell ... 18 points
7T. Jack Morris ... 19 points
7T. Lee Smith ... 19 points

Based on last year's results, (and given the clear weakness of the 2012 first-timer class) I think Larkin (and probably Bagwell - if the voters ever get wind of his dominance in these three categories) will get in and Martinez could double his 2011 percentage. Both Morris and Lee are nearing the end of consideration by the Baseball Writers and do not expect to jump much. To be honest, however, I may be a little too hopeful for Martinez. It may take him a decade of consideration to eventually get his Cooperstown bronze.

[sayhey24]

From the Hall of Fame website:

In 2011, the Golden Era Committee will meet for the first time to consider managers, umpires, executives and long-retired players whose most impactful contributions came between 1947 and 1972. In 2012, the Pre-Integration Era Committee will consider candidates whose main career contributions came from 1871-1946. Committees will continue to meet at the Winter Meetings.

I would think the top contenders among players would be Gil Hodges, Ron Santo and Tony Oliva. I'm still amazed that Hodges and Santo aren't in. Hodges was the top first baseman of his time in the NL, helped lead his team to many pennants and a WS title, was a great defensive player, and was the number two man in the 50s for HR and RBI. And then on top of all that, he managed the Miracle Mets to one of the most amazing championships of all time.
It sure is fun debating this stuff!

Greg

[peterose4hof]

As a lifelong Reds fan I am very excited about Barry Larkin's prospects of making the Hall! I think he will be the only one to get voted in by the Sportswriters. I think Ron Santo has been building steam and most likely will get in via the Veterans Committee.

[mr2686]

Of course Santo will get in...now that he's dead.
I say Larkin gets in, Bagwell should get in (take a look at his numbers...why isn't he a slam dunk...and don't say steroids because there's no proof).
I also hope that Gil Hodges finally gets in.

[vintagecpa]

I'm not a huge fan of any player on the list making the HOF. If I had to choose one, Jack Morris would be the one.

[Tao_Moko]

I am as bias as my avatar would suggest, but Santo is long overdue.

I have never loved the Reds because I hated moving to Ohio from Illinois but I have to admit that watching Larkin as many times I did in the late eighties and early nineties made me appreciate his work ethic. I have several dozen signed '87 Topps Larkins because he never turned me down before or after a game and those things were a dime a dozen and would sell for $4 at the card shop I worked in (Pack Rats in Portsmouth, OH) during that timeframe. BUT...........offensively Bagwell has as many hits (2314) in five less years of playing and 250 more homers. Back that up with over 1500 rbi's, .297 avg, and a .408 OBP and I'd say he's got the edge on Larkin.

I think Bagwell and Santo. Let Larkin soak and see how he looks in 2013 against that class.

[novakjr]

I think Larkin WILL get in. Bagwell has a good chance, but may not get in this time...A few of the others may gain some major ground, but I don't think anyone else will get in...

As far as the veterans committee goes. I like Santo's odds. I really think Hodges needs to get in. Jim Kaat and Oliva will probably not get in this year, but will be close. Joe Torre and possibly Danny Murtaugh as Managers.

Executives and Umpires, I couldn't tell ya...But Steinbrenner is a possibility.

[packs]

Am really looking forward to the Pre-Integration era vote next year. Hopefully they will vote in some great players we've been debating for a long time. Here's to hoping Larry Doyle gets his due.

[MacDice]

Larkin, Bagwell, Edgar, and Walke

[tbob]

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

I'm not a huge fan of any player on the list making the HOF. If I had to choose one, Jack Morris would be the one.

+1.

Javy Lopez??? C'mon, you've got to be kidding me. I can think of at least 5 catchers better who aren't in the HOF. I know the Hall is slowly turning in to the Hall of Very Good but Lopez?.......

[FrankWakefield]

It took me 3 clicks to get the page to move over so I could post. I took that as an omen that the venting, blaspheming and fussing I was about to do should not be done... so I won't. What follows is the lesser version of what I first thought.


The question asked was who will get in. I think Larkin will. I DO NOT think he should, but I think it'll happen. S#+! happens, and that's what it'll be... He was a very good player. I just don't think it should be the Hall of the Very Good. Yet that's what it's become. I figure I saw him play about 50 times... he was a smooth, sure fielder, solid on the basepaths, could hit quite a bit, he was respected by his team-mates. He was a very good player. I'm glad I saw him play. He was worth the admission price. I wasn't in awe when he stepped out of the dugout, didn't pause to watch him hit during BP... I saw Mays, Aaron, Musial, Mantle, Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, Spahn, Carleton, Boggs, Bench, Seaver, Banks, Berra, McCovey... and I saw a couple of hundred others who were very good ballplayers. And that's what Barry Larkin was.

I think Lee Smith should get in this year, but I doubt that he will.

Bagwell belongs with Larkin, a very good ballplayer who should be left out.

Lopez does not belong in the Hall. Ted Simmons does ahead of a handful of catchers already in, and a long ways ahead of Lopez.

I think Hodges should be in, just barely... he was such a nice guy, a very good ballplayer, and a good baseball man in later years. That B on his hat and him being a gentleman really puts the spin on him for getting in, and that might be enough to push him beyond where some folks see him just by looking at his stats.

I think Ed Reulbach should get in, but I've thought that for about 20+ years now; I don't see it happening. Instead, Puckett get's in; S#+! really does happen.

I'm ok with Santo getting in, he was a, wait for it, yep, a very good ballplayer. So were about 2 dozen more from his era that aren't in... Will eventually Uecker and Mendoza get in, 'cause after all each was good enough to make it to the show? Dave Ricketts gets in, then, too. And Carl Spooner. I could go up there to New York and see 'em all on those little plaques.

[kkkkandp]

I agree with both Jay and Steve. I wouldn't be devastated if no one got in, but quite frankly I like Bagwell over Larkin.

[campyfan39]

Agree 100%

Originally Posted by vintagecpa

I'm not a huge fan of any player on the list making the HOF. If I had to choose one, Jack Morris would be the one.

[nebboy]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Sounds like 2012 would be a good year to finally get Buck O'Neil and a few other Negro Leaguers a plaque in Cooperstown.

That would put the biggest smile on my face if BUCK could get some love from the man!! Or on the next possiable vote.

Also I'd be a voter for Lee Smith.

[prewarsports]

Like it or not, the DH is a legitimate position in baseball, MORE important to any AL team as an average fielder with the same offensive numbers. Edgar Martinez is the best DH in the history of Baseball. How many other legitimate positions have the best EVER player not in the Hall of Fame?

Edgar Martinez should be a Hall of Famer and if you dont like that, take it up with the Commissioner and have the rules changed. Saying he is not a Hall of Famer is like excluding Closers because they only pitch in 60 games a year and for less than 100 innings.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Like it or not, the DH is a legitimate position in baseball, MORE important to any AL team as an average fielder with the same offensive numbers. Edgar Martinez is the best DH in the history of Baseball. How many other legitimate positions have the best EVER player not in the Hall of Fame?

Edgar Martinez should be a Hall of Famer and if you dont like that, take it up with the Commissioner and have the rules changed. Saying he is not a Hall of Famer is like excluding Closers because they only pitch in 60 games a year and for less than 100 innings.

The problem with that statement is that DH is not a legitimate position. It's a generic position for hitters who can't do anything else. Forget the "designated" part, he's just a hitter. His stats must be compared to everyone who's ever stepped up to the plate, whether they played the field or not... The only way he could be the Best DH EVER, is if he were the Best Hitter Ever... His best bet would be for everyone to forget about what he ACTUALLY was, and compare him only to those at his natural position of Third Base, otherwise he must be compared to EVERYONE...

Now I know, I've been the big voice against Edgar in these forums, but the truth is, I believe he does belong in the Hall, BUT based on these inevitable truths, there are a good many players that I believe should get in before him...And I'd rather focus on them, instead of showing blind misguided love for a player who many people really don't fully understand what he truly was..

[Robextend]

I am not sure who played more games at DH, but Frank Thomas was better than Edgar Martinez. Thomas will most likely get in on the 1st ballot because his stats are just too overwhelming, but I do not think Martinez is the greatest DH of all time.

I also agree that on hitting alone, Martinez is a Hall of Famer. However, defense should definitely be some kind of factor when deciding if a player is HOF worthy.

[joeadcock]

Bagwell likely
Larkin maybe
Santo likely
Martinez ?
Morris ?

[rdixon1208]

DH is not a position. You're just a hitter, and Edgar Martinez isn't the greatest hitter of all time.

I say Bagwell and Biggio should go in together in 2013.

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Like it or not, the DH is a legitimate position in baseball, MORE important to any AL team as an average fielder with the same offensive numbers. Edgar Martinez is the best DH in the history of Baseball. How many other legitimate positions have the best EVER player not in the Hall of Fame?

Edgar Martinez should be a Hall of Famer and if you dont like that, take it up with the Commissioner and have the rules changed. Saying he is not a Hall of Famer is like excluding Closers because they only pitch in 60 games a year and for less than 100 innings.

[howard38]

.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Bobsbats]

Larkin ~ in
Morris ~ in
L.Smith ~ in
Bagwell ~ no

I have a question...why is Albert Belle NOT in the HOF ? I hope it's not because he was a jerk. To my knowledge he was never impimplicated in BALCO.
His numbers are HOF worthy, but nothing.... I was told by a member of the HOF staff that he isn't on the ballot because he didn't receive the minimum percentage...????? That's nuts if it's true. His 12Yr. Career averages .295 40 hr. 130 Rbi's ....if not implicated in Roids...its ridiculous that he is not in.

After looking at the numbers, if anyone from from the Steroid era should get in,
R. Palmerio has the numbers...but he won't get in.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Bobsbats

Larkin ~ in
Morris ~ in
L.Smith ~ in
Bagwell ~ no

I have a question...why is Albert Belle NOT in the HOF ? I hope it's not because he was a jerk. To my knowledge he was never impimplicated in BALCO.
His numbers are HOF worthy, but nothing.... I was told by a member of the HOF staff that he isn't on the ballot because he didn't receive the minimum percentage...????? That's nuts if its true.

After looking at the numbers, if anyone from from the Steroid era should get in,
R. Palmerio has the numbers...but he won't get in.

As far as Albert goes. They say the minimum years to be eligible is 10, getting in with the minimum time is for extreme cases. I'm actually a huge advocate of getting Albert into the Hall, but I don't think it'll ever happen. As far as Albert's number are concerned, he had one of the better 9 year stretches that I can remember in recent history, and had there not been a bit of a fall off in that 10th full season, it would be easy to argue that his career was shortened by injury.. But unfortunately his 2000 season was just downhill enough that people can try to claim that he was done.. Right or wrong, he was kind of a d!ck, and it just fuels people even more to make excuses against him..

Now just for comparison, Belle had 389 HR's and 1239 RBI's, while Edgar had 309 HR's and 1261 RBI's, Belle also did so in 500 less games.. Also for comparison, Pujols currently has 120 more games than Belle, with 438 and 1306..

162 game averages
Pujols- 43, 127
Belle- 40, 130
Edgar- 24, 99
Griffey- 38, 111
Thomas- 36, 119
Mantle- 36,102
Mays- 26, 103
Aaron-37, 113
A-Rod-43, 128
T. Williams- 37, 130
Sosa-42, 115
McGwire-50, 122
Thome-40, 110

[FrankWakefield]

As a kid in the early 60s, I recall getting my first real baseball book, My Greatest Day in Baseball, by John Carmichael. Obviously, it was what would now be thought of as an old edition. Those old guys were ballplayers. I think it is something in us that makes us want to have seen some superstar in our times that is the modern equivalent of Ruth, Johnson, Mathewson, Gehrig, Young, Lajoie, Speaker, Cobb, Waddell or Wagner. But the truth is that the guys we see today, and those we saw 5 years ago, for the most part, have no business being compared to those ten. Most modern stars aren't worthy of carrying their jock straps to the laundry room.

We want to have seen superstars too... and that drive is what's put the screws to the Hall. Imagine that if we all went to baseball heaven, where there are 4 fields adjacent to each other, with bp being pitched on each field, and the 4 players who are taking their cuts on those 4 fields are Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Gary Carter, and Kirby Puckett... to which fields will the true fanatics of baseball flock? And which 2 fields will have empty seats immediately behind the plate?

I've not looked at a modern edition of My Greatest Day in Baseball, but I'm sure that it would have modern players in it. Belle, Larkin, Martinez, Morris were really good players, but they fall far short of my concept of what a Hall of Famer should be. My concept is evidently in the minority (which doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong) because a bunch of merely very good ballplayers have already made it into the Hall. So I think it is getting close to the point of being meaningless... screw it, let everyone who made it to the majors into the Hall (excepting Rose and the other banned guys). And for good measure, anyone who didn't make it up but was there for spring training 3 seasons or more, put them in too. And the horses they rode in on.

[Wite3]

Please put Hodges in...he would have been a sure HOFer if not for the move to Los Angeles...his years at the LA Coliseum killed his stats. Huge drop off due to the dimensions of the Los Angeles parks...

Santo as well...

Sherry Magee as well...

Yes, to Morris and Larkin but would not be unhappy if they did not make it.
NO to everyone else.

j