Cleaning up the "Hobby"

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Posted By: Robert Plancich

Dear Members:

My name is Robert Plancich and I am the founder of the Collectors Alliance for Reform and Disciplinary Sanctions (CARDS). My organization is dedicated to ensuring, safeguarding and preserving the treasured history and heritage of our National pastime - a game that we simply call baseball. The following links are to stories that have recently been published in the New York Daily News. I hope that you take the time to read them and reply back with any comments and/or suggestions.

I recently appeared on ESPN's "Outside the Lines" show regarding a game-used early career Joe DiMaggio glove. The glove was accompanied by a hand-written, hand-signed letter from DiMaggio attesting to the glove's authenticity. Additionally, the glove was authenticated by Messrs. Bushing & Knoll who currently authenticate for SCD. The glove was subsequently sold in a Robert Edwards March 2001 auction and a MastroNet August 2002 auction. Both times the glove came with LOA's from Bushing & Knoll. Based solely on the auction sales that I am aware of this glove generated sales and auction house income in excess of $100,000.00 and $30,000.00, respectively. There was just one problem and that was the glove was described as an early career (1930's) glove but was actually made three to four years after DiMaggio retired, which was after the conclusion of the 1951 season. The glove's actual fair market value is about $200.00.I contacted Mr. Bushing over two years ago about the problems with this glove and he said that he didn't authenticate the glove for the Halper auction. I contacted Robert Lifson (who hired the authenticators for this auction) and Sotheby's and they both confirmed that Messrs. Bushing & Knoll did, in fact, authenticate the gloves. Additionally, Mr. Bushing purchased the glove out of the Halper auction on behalf of the Upper Deck Company. I again contacted Mr. Bushing about the Edwards and MastroNet auction and the related LOA's and he told me that MastroNet, not him, issued the LOA on the glove. I then contacted Doug Allen, president of MastroNet and he instructed Mr. Bushing not to answer my emails. Mr. Allen emailed me and stated that they would research this matter and get back to me. A year and a half later I contacted Allen and he informed me that they had done no further research. Mr. Allen had stated that they had sent the glove to another expert (Joe Phillips) who was going to confirm that they were right. I contacted Mr. Phillps and he told me that they never sent the glove. Bushing and Allen declined (three times) to be interviewed by ESPN about the glove and related sales and instead sent a letter to ESPN stating that they had done the "right thing" and repurchsed the glove back from it's current owner. They went on to say that this was an isolated instance and that this type of thing never happens.

Recently, Mr. Bushing purchased a DiMaggio bat from the Henrich family and initially tried to sell it to a prominent collector as a DiMaggio rookie era bat. The bat was purchased for $30,000.00 and sold to this collector for $90,000.00. The bat was sold to this collector twice and twice returned back to Mr. Bushing. The bat was taken to the Fort Washington, PA memorabilia show where it was passed around and everyone that saw the bat passed on it. At no time prior to the bat being consigned to mastroNet was this bat ever characterized and/or described as a DiMaggio 56 game hit streak bat. When the major bat collectors all passed on this bat it was then and only then that this at "magically" went from being a DiMaggio rookie era bat to a DiMaggio "streak" bat. It was then rushed into MastroNet's April 26, 2004 catalog (the bat appears on the last page of their catalog) and eventually sold for $345,598.00. This was the second most expensive bat sold and the auction itself set an all-time record of $11..5 mil. SCD covered the auction in its entirety but not one word was written about this bat - not one word. I have since contacted Rocky Landsverk (SCD editor) and T.S. O'Connell who writes the "Auction Circuit" column and have never received any response to any of my emails on this subject. Of course you know that the bat was graded an A10 and was not only owned by Messrs. Bushing and Knoll but also authenticated by them and SCD Authentic. Now in order for this bat to be authentic you have to buy into two things. The first is that this bat supposedly came from a 07.01.41 shipment of bats to DiMaggio that Henrich can remember the exact shipment and date. The bat was received after the All-Star break and the All-Star game in that year was played on July 8th, therefore the next regular season game was played on 07.10.41. DiMaggio's streak ended on 07.17.41; therefore this bat could have only been used one week and one week only. The second thing that you have to buy into is that DiMaggio hit with the label down because the ball marks are on the wrong side of the label for a right-handed batter that hit with the label up. However, the ball marks are on the correct side of the label for a left-handed batter that hits with the label up, such as Henrich. I contacted Dom DiMaggio and he confirmed to me that Joe always hit with the label up and was very superstitious. Mr. bushing told me that he had photographic evidence of DiMaggio hitting with the label down but refused to provide such photos to me. I then contacted Allen and he told me that MastroNet is the premier auction house for sports memorabilia but would not confirm to me that Bushing & Knoll owned the bat. When I contacted Mr. Bushing he would only say that he had a "financial interest" in the bat. Anyway, I then contacted Allen and he told me that when they have items consigned in their auction that are both owned and authenticated by the same individual(s) that these items are held to a higher standard and that they obtain a second LOA from an independent third party authenticator, such as PSA/DNA. well, the long and the short of it is that they never were able to obtain that second LOA. I then contacted Hillerich & Bradsby president, John Hillerich IV and told him the story about the bat. It's interesting to note that H&B didn't know that Bushing & Knoll owned the bat. Hillerich had two of his people contact me regarding the bat and H&B promised that they were going to do their own "due dilligence" research. I spoke to two of thier top people on a conference call for over an hour on this bat. After giving them all of the information I later contacted them about the results of their research and they told me that they didn't want to share the results of their "due diligence" with me and basically told me they were satisfied with the bat. Why? Because if you go to their website Bushing is listed there as their expert and also consults for them on their museum. How would it look if the manufacturer of the bat bought a bat that wasn't real! How would that reflect upon them and their museum. I now get emails from H&B's corporate legal counsel threatening to sue me because I told them that they shouldn't display that bat in their museum for the public to see because it's a fraud. I could go on and on but I think that's enough for now.

As I stated previously the following links are to articles that I hope members will find educational and informative, if not at least interesting. The first one is about the Mickey Mantle glove that Billy Crystal purchased, the second link is about the DiMaggio "streak" bat and the third link is about Bushing and the current Sotheby's auction (the article was just published today) and the fourth link is a story that I had nothing to do with but is about a fake Ichiro bat. This story demonstrates the lengths that authenticators and/or the auction house will go to in fabricating a story in order to make an item authentic.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/143355p-126924c.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/200142p-172802c.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/258127p-221097c.html

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?sp20020104jg.htm

Finally, it is my opinion that the major abuses are in the card grading and autograph authentication area's of this industry and make no mistake this is an industry, not a hobby. I am interested in talking with anyone about anything and hope to hear your comments pro and con alike.

It should be noted that I personally have nothing against Messrs. Bushing & Knoll, SCD, MastroNet, PSA/DNA, ect. I have always contacted them first and their answers are always the same - nothing. I had some autographed balls once authenticated by James Spence and Steve Grad. According to PSA/DNA one was good and two were bad. That was fine as I wrote to them asking for their reason on why they were good and bad. The long and the short of it was that neither Spence nor Grad would answer any questions and directed me to their corporate legal counsel. After contacting their corporate legal counsel who wouldn't answer any direct questions I was referred to PSA/DNA ppresident, Joe Orlando. He refused to answer any questions and threatened to sue me if I kept emailing him. I have had enough with these so-called experts that refuse to substantiate the itrems that they authenticate and/or reject. The time has come to bring about change in this industry and I am asking for you help to bring about said change.

In advance, I would like to thank you all for time, anticipated cooperation and consideration of these matters.

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Posted By: steve k

Interesting post and enjoyed reading it. Certainly though none of this is new. This has been going on for many years. Just the dollar figures get higher each year. Sports memorabilia has always been a bit shady and probably always will be.

<<< Finally, it is my opinion that the major abuses are in the card grading and autograph authentication area's of this industry and make no mistake this is an industry, not a hobby. >>>

I do have to disagree with your implication of lumping card grading with autographs and memorabilia. There are problems with card grading. There definitely is room for improvement. But overall it works fairly well with the reputable card grading companies. Card grading is only "shady" with the disreputable grading companies. Autographs and memorabilia will always be shady to some degree no matter who does the authentication. As for coa's - You mentioned Joe Dimaggio signing coa's. I don't even trust a coa even if Dimaggio signed it - with absolutely no disrespect at all for Joe - at times I think Joe just wrote or signed anything that was put in front of him from dealers who were paying for his letters or signatures. Probably many other players do the same. Many times autographs and memorabilia are perception rather than reality - especially memorabilia. If you're willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for the perception that something is real - if that makes a person happy then so be it. Also - virtually every, if not every hobby has an industry connected to it so there's no big deal there.

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Posted By: John

I agree 100%. I have watched my beloved hobby go down hill very fast over the past years. Due in large fact to many of the factors you have just stated. We live in a hobby that has become a big business, and many of us including myself would like to turn our heads and pretend it’s the same old fun collecting hobby we once participated in. The sad but true point as you said is that this is a huge industry. Many of the daily practices that these large “captains of industry” practice would be found as illegal and dishonest in any other business setting. Unfortunately because of the mindset by most of the collectors, these people continue to get away with murder. These practices that you described to ones I have seen with my own eyes, such as preferential treatment by grading companies to certain clients, are at a pace to have a huge negative impact on this hobby.

As I said earlier if these practices were put in place at any other business such as real estate, stocks/bonds right down to consumer goods sales. These companies would be before a board of review or held on legal issues.

The really sad thing as these people continue to find ways to milk huge amounts of money from the select few. Prices continue to go up and drive out the masses in which have kept and will continue to keep our hobby intact.

With that said anything that I can do to help as a collector please feel free to let me know. Best of luck with you endeavors and thank for your time in trying to keep our great hobby clean and honest.

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Posted By: Anonymous

.....people make mistakes.

wink, wink, nudge, nudge

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I am not going to get into this in much detail, as I like my current bidder status with Mastronet just fine (had my bidding "privilieges" revoked when I questioned the authenticity/grading of the PSA 8 T206 Wagner). I believe that grading companies are somewhat good for our Hobby. Afterall, like we discussed on this forum regarding Larry Fritsch (who wants to pay for a certain grade and get a card that is 2-3 grades lower than it was advertised???). However, like with the T206 Wagner (which I will NEVER debate about again BTW), initially, the grading company did the right thing and REJECTED the card. Then they (PSA) were "pursuaded" by the person who was a big name in our Hobby and ran a large auction house to SLAB the card anyway!

Like I tell my friends who collect higher grade cards than I (didn't mention your name this time BTW!), the real reason I LOVE cards graded 3's and 4's is that is how a 90-100 year old card SHOULD look! SURE, there are some that went untouched and remained "lost" for decades and were uncovered in truly NM/MT or better form. However, we all KNOW that there are some HIGH GRADE TRIMMED cards residing in NM/MT and MINT holders. This is really not to be blammed on the grading companies, but rather the HIGHLY INFLUENTIAL person (people) who submitted the cards. These people (not mentioning any names) always not only get a grade or two higher than the rest of us "average Joe's", but can get ALTERED cards slabbed as real and unaltered simply for a PROFIT! THIS IS NOT A LOVE FOR OUR HOBBY - IT IS A LOVE FOR MONEY (AND YOU CAN READ WHAT GOD THINKS ABOUT THAT IN THE HOLY BIBLE!).

I get most of my cards graded. I actually LOVE the idea of a third party stating a card is real and is a cetain grade (especially good when you decide to sell - the buyer can't argue). However, as much as we all here on this board blame the grading companies, maybe we should take a closer look at WHO or WHAT AUCTION HOUSE submitted the cards and was pulling the strings behing the grading!?!?

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Posted By: hankron

Of course the auction houses should do a good job. But I also feel that, on expensive items, collectors should educate themselves and hire a personal consultant to advise them. If you're buying a $100,000 glove, f*ck Sotheby's getting Joe Phillips' second opinion. YOU pay Joe Phillips for his opinion. I can tell you that currently I know of issues with significant items. The problem is that not a single bidder or potential bidder has asked for my input or likely will. Even if I wanted to talk to the bidders and potential bidders, I have no clue who they are.

Even if I'm no longer an avid baseball collector, I follow all the auctions and am well aware of what is being offered in my areas of expertice and the accuracy of the descriptions. However, my experience is that the Sotheby's and MastroNets of the world don't ask for my input before the auction and almost no bidders ask for my input during. This genuinely used to bother me whenever I saw a significant problem. But I've grown to beleive that, if neither side is interested in my input, that's their issue to work out. I'm happy to save my energy and help for the occasional collector who does seek it.

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Posted By: Joe P.

And that definitely includes card grading.

Graders are fantastic with corners and sides, but beyond that, they sometimes border on the supernatural.
They sometimes know less than their clients.

Just ask Alan and Keith.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

It is my understanding that all major auction sales are final and that "no expert opinion trumps their "expert(s)" opinion(s)". More or less, if their expert says an item is real, it is real; and if you win it, it is YOURS!

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Posted By: John

“However, we all KNOW that there are some HIGH GRADE TRIMMED cards residing in NM/MT and MINT holders. This is really not to be blammed on the grading companies, but rather the HIGHLY INFLUENTIAL person (people) who submitted the cards.”

Any company that states this for their reason of existence. I most certainly can blame for being biased or influenced by someone, note the word “unbiased”. There is simply no excuse. All parties involved are guilty as charged that simple.


Direct From PSA’s Website.

Grading Accuracy You Can Depend On

We’re the Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) -- the world’s largest third-party authentication service. No more guesswork or taking the word of one dealer over another. Now you can have your sports cards graded by an unbiased group of the hobby’s most experienced sports card grading experts -- and at the same time be assured that the only interest they have in your cards is to make sure they’re properly graded and carefully preserved. PSA’s permanent grading standard is recognized industry-wide as the best possible form of consumer protection. So when you see a card for sale in a holder displaying the PSA logo, you’ll know you can buy with the confidence that the card has been properly and professionally graded. If you want to verify the grade of a card before you sell, have it graded by PSA and realize its full value without leaving any money on the table. And if it’s safe, long-term storage you’re after, PSA’s tamper-evident card capsule offers the most visually appealing form of safe card storage known. Our protective inert, optical-grade plastic holder will help keep your top athletes in great shape for years to come.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

This is why I stay away from bats and balls and gloves and jerseys and autographs.

Way too much room for "error."



As far as card grading is concerned...

I have never doubted that certain people can probably get a "bump up" on their cards, but I don't think too many counterfeits are slipping through.

When they do, the reputable grading companies seem to buy them back.

If we did NOT have reputable card "authenticators", I think the card hobby would be full of counterfeits and forgeries and other crap.

Then again ... if it ever turns out that SGC and PSA have NOT been doing their job properly ...

there will be Hell to pay.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I don't know who you are but I do know who the folks at Mastronet are. I have dealt with them, both professionally and personally, for over a decade and they are some of the finest people I have ever met, regardless of the venue. I feel safe in saying that I am soundly in the majority on this issue; their amazing success is a testament to this.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I decided a long time ago not to collect memorabilia for precisely the reasons outlined above. Too many questions and too many shady possibilities. I collect cards and autographed cards only when they come from the source to me directly or after I have studied the signatures of the autographs' creators and am comfortable that they are real or have items that are unlikely to be forged (e.g., old bank checks).

In short, I understand and appreciate your perspective, but none of my doggies are in that fight.

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Posted By: dan mckee

There is plenty of this crap in grading. The fact that it matters who submits the cards proves this. I was at a show many years ago in Cleveland and I was adjacent to a now major grading company's table. A dealer who was a regular customer of theirs, dropped off a stack of topps cards. He returned a few hours later and was screaming! The cards were graded 6s and 7s. After his tirade, he was instructed to leave the cards and return in an hour. All of the cards were now 7s and 8s. Now this was a long time ago, 8 to 10 years maybe. But it still matters who submits the cards. I submitted a K-bats card to a major company, it was returned as trimmed, the card wasn't trimmed. I was consigning it to a major auction house and told them it wouldn't grade. It was later slabbed in front of me a VG/EX 4.

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Posted By: Scott

Many of us suspect questionable things go on behind the scenes. With that in mind, as David R. said, you have to use your own brain when bidding on stuff: We all know which auctions sell trimmed and over-graded cards - bid appropriately. We all know which auctions sell misrepresented items - consult an expert in advance if you are not one yourself. We all know that there are a zillion forged Ruth signatures offered in auctions - don't buy them unless you can verify upon receipt that the item is fake or real, and can use that research to get your money back if necessary.

As far as the shady practices at the auction houses, I've never seen proof that they knowingly misrepresented any items other than unslabbed cards. "Knowingly" being the key word.

I have to ask one question that may get me in hot water: Has anyone seen a fake Ruth signature being sold by a major auction house? I ask because I will eventually buy one, but I want a real one.

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Posted By: Rhys

I am going to go out on a limb and estimate that 20-25%% of the Ruth autographs authenticated by PSA/DNA are fake. This is just my opinion from 15 years of collecting autographs, and dont take that as gospel. As such, I stay far far away from Ruth unless it is on a bank check (even some of the documents you see are fake signatures on once blank documents, but not the checks). Pay a little more for a team signed ball or a bank check and you will have piece of mind.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

No one would debate that position seriously. But it is nothing compared to the memorabilia potentials for fraud. Memorabilia is nothing more than someone's word for it, unless you have a situation where, say, Bobby Feller wrote on the bat that it was the one Babe Ruth used to make his farewell, or where the little boy's family consigns the gift ball directly to the auctioneer. Otherwise, the provenance (def: the background information of an object of art) of these items is often very mysterious if not impossible to establish because unlike a painting, they were not considered more than curios until relatively recently. This means that the process of handling these items is the "X File" method ("I want to believe"): someone supposedly in the know makes up a story to go with the item. There is no objective ability to check the story. It is a battle of hired "experts" (we lawyers call this a "whore fight" BTW).

I'll give you a great example of how come I never buy memorabilia and rarely buy autographs: I purchased a very rare Jim Thorpe card at the National (some of you might have seen it on the National coverage cover of SCD, or at the show while I was walking around with an especially stupid grin ). I'd never held any example of that card before, but I have several others from the same rare set of cowboy exhibits and have studied their characteristics very carefully. I looked at the Thorpe and could tell it had the same characteristics as the other cards in the series INDEPENDENT of having to believe any story as to its origins or any wonk giving a testimonial about it. Now, authenticating the autograph on my Lennox Lewis autographed 1991 boxing card is a situation where anyone looking at it would have to believe my story rather than judge with their own eyes. I went to a pre-fight workout promoting the Lewis-Klitschko fight and managed to catch the champ on the run with the card, which he signed with his wraps on (they are the bandages that go on the fighter's hands under the gloves) while walking to the podium to speak to the press. Consequently, the signature is a scrawl but I got it myself so I know it is real. Would some buyer ever be able to independently determine whether I'd really gotten it signed? Nope. Maybe he could hire a whore to say it is real and slab it, but he could never prove it is a real sig based solely on an examination of the item itself. Anyone could scrawl it and say they'd gotten the sig.

All I am saying in my typical long-winded way is that memorabilia often rests on non-objective beliefs as to the nature of an item that often cannot be independently determined from examination of the item itself. For that reason, I stay away from memorabilia except in very limited circumstances.

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Posted By: Joe P.

When a heavy one slips through a Mt. Olympus graders crack, and after being pressed with the facts they do the only sensible,logical business 101 thing, ..... give a refund.

How many time are required before losing the Reputable ranking?

Dr. Koos, aka Danny Dupchek, gave refunds when pressed with the facts.

How long did it take for him to lose his reputable ranking?

BTW, why do some sellers state that there are no refunds with a third party graded card?
Do they really feel that the Third Party is stationed on MT OLYMPUS?

Just ask Alan R. and Keith O.

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<BTW, why do some sellers state that there are no refunds with a third party graded card?
Do they really feel that the Third Party is stationed on MT OLYMPUS?>>

Third-party grading facilitates the selling process. If you sell a card and the new owner is unhappy with it - they should take it up with the grading company, not the seller. Or they should take it up with themselves for not asking adequate questions before seeing the purchase.

There are a bunch of INANE collectors out there - and I have known a few ebay buyers who have tried to return graded cards because of tiny print dots on the reverse of a card - or 75/25 centering on the back of a card. If your return policy is too lenient - people take advantage of it. I'm not saying exception cannot or should not be made. But what should happen is this: Fully disclose in your auctions, allows potential buyers to ask questions, and state clearly what your policy is. That way - there should not be problems in the first place. If the seller doesn't ask for a scan of the back of the card - then he shouldn't complain if it does not meet his standards...

~ms

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Posted By: PASJD

We can all rant and rave about trimmed cards and cards otherwise altered being slabbed (I fully believe the gentleman who posted to that effect), and the ability of certain insiders to get things done that the rest of us can't (same), and the (just my opinion) likely complicity at least to some extent of the grading companies. But how are we ever going to prove it? Unless you saw it done yourself, or someone confesses (about as likely as hell freezing over absent a criminal proceeding where someone might be afraid to commit perjury), "they" always have two fallbacks. One, grading and authentication are subjective, it may looked trimmed to you but not to us; and two, absolute worst case, we made a mistake, we are human, but sincere. Add to this the fact that I believe most people don't care and WANT to believe the illusion of mint 1887 cards that look better now than the day they were made (I submit a slabbed card will ALWAYS sell for near its commodity value even if it is so short it is literally swimming in the holder, and I have seen many of these), and I am pessimistic that the truth will ever be disclosed.

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Posted By: Joe P.

Yes!

Graders are located on MT.OLYMPUS.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Although I also do not have any of my doggies in the memorabilia fight, it sure is an interesting one. It seems from my vantage point of a casual, mostly disinterested observer, that a desireable grading element for memorabilia is the degree of certainty associated with the Authenticity.

That is: "We are 2% certain it is a DiMaggio streak bat"
We are 90% certain that it is a Dimaggio era bat
We are 70% certain it is a bat delivered to DiMaggio, etc

These can be stated, and a buyer deserves to know how uncertain an authentication is.

The DiMaggio streak bat which may never have even been swung by a right handed batter, yet draw bids over $ quarter mil. should have this qualifier, or a similar one stated. Any company who refuses to offer substantiation of their opinions is not going to last, IMHO.

But like I say, that is a different fight. We are in comparible safer waters if we stick with cards.

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Posted By: hankron

I regularly offer this equation to people whether they are collecting high end baseball memorabilia, fine art or fashion photographs.

1) Educate yourself. Become an expert in your the things you collect. I'm sure Jay Miller knows more about Old Judges than anyone at Sotheby's or Chistie's. If you don't know anything about the subject, that's your problem not anyone else's.

2) Deal with quality sellers and auction houses. Quality sellers are experts, honest and reliable.

3) Get an expert second opinion. If you're a multi-millionaire buying $50,000 football jerseys and $100,000 bats, hire someone to check over the auctions you plan on bidding. If you're an average Joe, get a circle of fellow knowledgeable collectors to bounce questions off (ala Net54).

If a quality dealer says its A, you (as an experienced and knowledgeable collector) agree it's A and your expert 2nd opinion also says it appears to be A, you are in good shape. If there are holes in the provenance or items description, one of the three will likely detect them, even if the other two don't.

If you are considering buying something outside of your normal experience (you collect baseball cards, but are interested in a bat or a movie poster), having #2 & #3 at your disposal is essential.

Personally, I think MastroNet, Sotheby's and Lelands are good auction houses, and I recommend them. But that is only #2 in the equation. Collectors will experience problems if they only rely on #2, as I can promise you that the big auction houses don't always get it right.

And, while I hold the auction houses to highest standards, I'm sorry if I don't shed a tear for some multi-millionaire who throws money away on something he is ignorant about and is unwilling to pay popcorn money for an expert opinion on. "Yes, sir, I agree that MastroNet made a mistake on that item you bought. But my question was why you are such a dumb sh*t."

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Posted By: steve k

Everyone or anyone can complain all they want to about grading companies. I have no problem with expressing your opinion. Some of these complaints are well justified especially from one of the posters here whose story has been well documented. But the facts are that card grading through reputable companies has made our hobby better. You can "say it ain't so" if wanting to - but it is so. I also collect coins. I remember what the coin and card collecting hobby had become shortly before the advent of grading companies. Counterfeiting, among other problems, had become rampant and out of control. Grading helped to basically "solve" these problems. Don't forget that when we refer to card "grading" this also includes authentication. Authentication in card grading is very close to a science with reputable card graders. As far as autographs and memorabilia, authentication is an art and a very imprecise art at that, if not many times an impossible art.

<<< My organization is dedicated to ensuring, safeguarding and preserving the treasured history and heritage of our National pastime - a game that we simply call baseball. >>>

I do applaud the poster's effort in attempting to do all this. But to me it seems a futile and impossible task to "police" a hobby. Our legal system is already setup to address civil complaints. "The treasured history and heritage of our national pastime" is already taken care of by the Baseball Hall of Fame and other organizations. Certainly though the poster's effort of bringing these situations to our attention is worthwhile and helpful.

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Posted By: Pcelli60

Great that somebodys looking out. Now can somebody out there lend me about 500,000 so I could take advantage of it? VG-EX conditioned bills gladly taken..

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Posted By: Joe P.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_5.html



Home > News > Periodicals
Periodicals

Famous T206 Doyle card is pronounced a phony
Written by T.S. O'Connell (SCD - Feb 25, 2000)





When one of the most elusive hobby rarities apparently turned up at last year's SportsFest in Philadelphia, Alan Rosen figured he has stumbled upon yet another "find" in a career that has turned up some of the most spectacular hoards in the hobby
Six months later, Rosen, arguable the most famous card dealer in the country, is suing a grading service because the card in question has subsequently been deemed by many to be a fake. Rosen insists that he purchased the card from a walk-in customer at the Philadelphia show on the basis of an on-site certification of it being authentic by Sports-card Guaranty Corp.

With the authenticity of the card now in question, Rosen is suing Sportscard Guaranty Corp. to recover more than $23,000, which represents, roughly, the amount that Rosen refunded the collector who purchased the card from him in his December 1999 auction. Adding yet another twist to the story, the winning bidder on the now-allegedly ersatz Doyle was one of the more famous collectors on the continent, Fox television sports anchor Keith Olbermann, who traces his roots to the earliest days of the hobby and is widely regarded as a vintage card
expert in his own right.

"I went to SGC and they looked at it and agreed it was no good," said Rosen. SGC officials agreed to reimburse Rosen for the $8,000 and the cost of the advertising that he had done to promote the auction, but
Rosen wanted the amount that he had been forced to refund to
Olbermann and related costs. The civil action filed on Jan. 31 in Superior Court of New Jersey in Bergen County lists $23,177, plus court costs.

The card in question, the T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'l" hands above head, is thought to be much rare than some of its more famous counterparts from the same classic set, Honus Wagner, Eddie Plank and Sherry Magie. Hobby insiders debate how many examples of the "Big Three" are
around, with three or four dozen T206 Wagners thought to be known, for example, but most experts agree that fewer than half dozen of Doyles
with the "Nat'l" designation are known.

That degree of scarcity made it all the more remarkable that two of the cards would be in the spotlight at last year's Philadelphia SportsFest. Rosen paid a reported $8,000 for the Doyle card he bought at the show, and fellow dealer Levi Bleam was also trumpeting his recent acquisition
of a Doyle, though his had been acquired for an undisclosed price shortly before the show opened.

Ironically, Rosen, who had been a vocal opponent of independent grading services for many years, has actually worked for Sportscard Guaranty for just over a year, serving as consultant. Rosen and SGC parted ways only two months before the Doyle card was auctioned.

Rosen is quick to point out that the only reason he purchased the card was because it had been given the OK by SGC's most visible grading expert, Joe Merkel, who left SGC in October of last year. "I purchased
the card on SGC's authority," said Rosen. "When the guy came to my table and offered the card, I immediately found Joe Merkel, who said without a doubt that it was authentic."

At that point Rosen paid the man for the card, which had considerable wear and damage, much of it around the important area of the "Nat'l" designation. SGC graded the card a "10", essentially the lowest grade
on the scale and roughly equivlent to PSA1.

The fact that a card in such rough shape could command $8,000 to the unidentified man who brough in the card is a good barometer of just how rare it is. Rosen said the man, in his 30s, brought the Doyle to the show amoung a large grouping of T206s and clearly was aware of the significance of the card.

The Doyle card wound up being one of the marquee items in Rosen's Dec. 6 auction, ultimately purchased by Olbermann with a winning bid of more than $21,000. When the noted broadcaster received the card
several days later, he almost immediately identified it as having been altered, and promptly showed it to a friend and fellow collector to confirm his suspiscious.

"I've been collecting for 33 years now and been 'in' the hobby since 1971, and I think I know what I'm talking about," said Olbermann, who was writing for hobby publications, including Sports Collectors Digest, even as a teenager. "But even if I had just started collecting, I could've seen this one with one pupil tied behing my back.

"When I was an eight-year-old collecting 1967 Topps and a guy would
get traded, I'd cut the name of his new team from another card and
scotch tape it onto his card. The job done on this one was only slightly more sophisticated," continued Olbermann.

"You could see the ridge at the top of the glued-on "Nat'l" with the naked eye. Later, under a magnifying device provided by a friend, you could see that the bottom border of the card jutted downwards under the "Nat'l"
glue-on. In short, you or I could glue together a more convincing version
in no more than two or three tried."

After getting a second opinion confirming his view from a hobby friend, Olbermann showed the card to what could best be described as a relatively disinterested, thoroughly impartial neophye - the driver who brings him to work every day. He said, "Is this word 'Nat' - apostrophe L glued on or something?"

Rosen wasted no time in settling accounts with Olbermann, whom he described as a good customer. "I hope there are no hard feelings over the card," Rosen added. The dealer known as "Mr. Mint" sent Olbermann a certified check to reimburse him, then turned his attention to SGC.

SGC officials are adamant that they have done all that they can in satisfying their guarantee. "We offered to reimburse him for the card and the advertising expenses. What we offered was above and beyound our guarantee." said SGC President Steve Eichenbaum. "We're not in the business of allowing people to profit from these things.

"We own up to our mistakes," continued Eichenbaum, who added that when Rosen brought the card back to SGC following Olbermann's return
of it, the SGC graders conceded that there was some question about the authenticity of the card. "If there is a question, we feel that we did the
right thing.

"It appears (Rosen) is interested in profiting from the situation. I think that's wrong," said Eichenbaum. He also noted that he could not respond specifically to the allegations in the suit because he had yet to see the actual papers as of Feb. 2.

Assuming that the card is ultimately deemed to be a fake (SGC oficials said they would destroy the card had Rosen accepted their offer and returned the card to them_, that leaves perhaps five known specimens. Larry Fritsch, probably the most famous and prolific collector in the country, reportedly has two copies of the Doyle card, both thought to be about excellent. Another is thought to be owned by Charles Conlon in Michigan, and a fourth by an unnamed East Coast collector. Add in Bleam's which was deemed authentic by PSA at SportsFest, but didn't receive a grade because PSA officials felt it had been trimmed, and that makes five.

With that kind of rarity, it's no wonder that big bucks and bruised feelings are involved. Larry Fritsch figures that either of his Doyles would probably command something close to $100,000 at auction, but he has no such plans at the moment. Nor does Bleam, who is content to hold his card for awhile longer.



RELATED ARTICLES:
Gallery - Big 4 - T206 Joe Doyle (N.Y. Nat'l)
Periodicals - T206 Joe Doyle (N.Y. Nat'l)

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Posted By: PASJD

This kinda begs the question, why did Rosen, who surely must have considerable expertise himself and who for years blasted the notion of third party grading, (1) not spot the problem on his own and (2) rely at all on SGC's opinion. Did Rosen think Joe Merkel really knew more than he did? Something doesn't add up here.

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Posted By: Joe P.

To Alan's credit, he was admitting that the question of the Doyle authenticity, was not his area of expertise.
Whereas Joe Merkle faked it. (no pun intended.)

To make matters worse, that was one of the easiest
fake Doyles to spot.
I've seen better.

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Posted By: Jeff S

Rhys mentioned several posts ago that for piece of mind in buying a Ruth signature, one should buy a bank check or a team ball.

I understand the bank check argument. (Though I would suppose that doesn't hold for ~all~ celebrities, as many surely allowed their wives and perhaps others to sign checks for them.)

But aren't there quite a number of Yankees team balls with Ruth "clubhouse signatures" on them? I seem to recall one on eBay not too long ago with authentic signatures of several others, but what the seller identified as a clubhouse sig of Ruth.

I had thought this was common knowledge, but I'm not as knowledgeable as Rhys on this sort of thing, so I'm curious if he can shed more light on this for me.

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Posted By: PASJD

I am not sure it is that simple. Mr. Rosen for years has portrayed himself as an expert (presumably with good reason, given his vast experience) and for years ridiculed grading companies for adding nothing of value (I wished I had saved some of his polemics), so why would he need to take a card to SGC at all, much less one that from all I am reading was an obvious tamper job? It isn't adding up to me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe P.

PASJD:

"Joe P.
I am not sure it is that simple. Mr. Rosen for years has portrayed himself as an expert (presumably with good reason, given his vast experience) and for years ridiculed grading companies for adding nothing of value (I wished I had saved some of his polemics), so why would he need to take a card to SGC at all, much less one that from all I am reading was an obvious tamper job? It isn't adding up to me."
*
*
PASJD:
"I am not sure it is that simple."

Maybe not for you, it all depends on when you started in this hobby/speculators game.
I can recall Mr. Rosen before he gave himself the Mr. Mint moniker.
If I'm not mistaken, I think he came over from the numismatic world.

PASJD:
"Mr. Rosen for years has portrayed himself as an expert"

Bingo PASJD Bingo!

PORTRAYED.

You said the magic word and that makes you a winner.
Alan created Mr Mint, he portrayed the part and made it larger than life.
Alan is a huckster, a showman, a carnival barker, a performer, in the lower eastside of Manhattan he would have been called a puller, .... Alan is one hell of an expert salesman.
As a former professional actor for over twenty years, I have enjoyed watching his work at various shows.
Believe it or not, Mr. Mint helped put the hobby on the map back in the 1980's.

Let's list the Portrayers in the Doyle Caper.

Alan as Mr. Mint.
Joe Merkel as the Chief Authenticator.
SGC as an Authenticator.

And we can list several other portrayers in the slab Authentication world.

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Posted By: Anonymous

when you say SGC as authenticator, who have you cast behind that curtain ?

I'm guessing this is not an indictment against the current crew.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I think anyone buying "game used", "authentic" or what ever you want to call them item are taking a serious gamble with there money because if you did not get it personally i don't believe anyone can be absolutely sure it is what they say it is. I just can not be confident that any of it is what they say it is.

Heck I have a game worn batting glove with the number 12 on it. With out personally seeing Wade Boggs throw it up to me and me catching it how in the world can you authenticate something like that?

This is why I will never pay for an autograph, or specific game used equipment.

By the Way, I think our buddy Al is a big blow hard, how he can not authenticate a card from a common issue, by himself is shameful for all he thinks he is.

Lee

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Posted By: martindl

Lee said
"I think anyone buying "game used", "authentic" or what ever you want to call them item are taking a serious gamble with there money because if you did not get it personally i don't believe anyone can be absolutely sure it is what they say it is."

Buying and collecting game used equipment is no more of a gamble than collecting early cards, provided you do what David said above and make sure you're educated. If you spend enough time and energy studying whatever it is you collect, then the bad stuff becomes fairly obvious. If your passion is spending money to get things but do no homework, then whatever you collect, you'll get burned.

The biggest problem in the game used arena are the claims of use, not that the item is used. The Dimaggio streak bat is a prime example - it is clearly a Dimaggio game used bat and worth a nice sum in its own right, but once it attracted the moniker of "streak bat" it took off to another stratosphere. I'd stay away from anything that is claimed to be used in a certain signature moment unless there is absolute ironclad evidence, and there rarely is.

[Archive]

Posted By: PASJD

Thanks for the eloquent clarification, disturbing though it is. At least in this case the collector was knowledgeable enough to rectify the situation. One only wonders how many similar "mistakes" reside in holders.

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Posted By: Julie

even ungraded cards, as opposed to memorabilia, is living in a dream world.Even if it's true that a bat has now sold for more than a card. I wouldn't want either of them...

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Posted By: dennis

i'd like more info on your organization.are there any members? what do you monitor? do you consult any experts on sports memoribilia? i could not find a website about your organization. you will find a lot of skeptics as well as experts on this site.

[Archive]

Posted By: PASJD

About five years ago I sold my entire pre-war collection, most of which was PSA 7s and 8s (it wasn't THAT many cards, but some were pretty big ticket items), because I was convinced that most or all of them were altered and the uncertainty detracted from any enjoyment in owning them. I got back in a couple of years later and am only buying mid-grade pre-war. I figure that isn't immune from fraud either, but at least my odds are better (or I am not into it for as much money). However, based on what I hear through the grapevine, I am now starting to have many of the same doubts about my 50s and 60s cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

Collectors of Pre-War baseball cards and related material should not take for granted how lucky they are having the Net54 Board (well run by Bill Cornell). Consider that this is a place where folks like Barry Sloate, Bob Lemke, Josh Evans, Rich Klein, Jay Miller, Scott Brockleman (sp, sorry Scott if I got it wrong, I tried), Leon Lucky, Scott Forrest and all the bright rest offer information and learned opinions, and the beginning collector can ask a question or offer an opinion just like anyone else. I can promise you that there is no equivilant board for collectors of million dollar Picasso paintings or Ming vases where Paris museum curators and Harvard art historians and average collectors mingle to shoot the breeze and trade tricks of the trade and point out the errors in the latest Sotheby's auction catalog and post their latest pick-ups.

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Posted By: hankron

As exemplified by this board, the great thing about the internet age is that you can communicate with someone in New York City or El Paso or Miami as easily as if they were ten miles away .... I knew there was something special about the internet when I got an email from an 10 year old girl in Australia who needed help with her homework on photographs (After dealing with the regular adult eBay sellers of color Fro Joys and 'blue eyed' Honus Wagner, talking with a bright 10 year old is by far the more mature of the conversations. I guess girls mature faster than boys).

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe P.

PASJD:
"I am now starting to have many of the same doubts about my 50s and 60s cards."
*
*
Like you, I am a collector.
I derive pleasure and enjoyment from the hobby.
On and off it has always been a hobby for me over the years.
I flipped my first card in 1941, it was a Play Ball.
I've lived life and earned my money in various vocations, but my various hobbies and cards were always the R & R from the jobs.
I know not how others feel about this, but when you're messing with my sublimation, you better prepare yourself for a fight.

1990 ten years before the Alan - Keith - SGC - Doyle Caper, I had my own Doyle Caper, but these were not slabbed.

This collector stood, fought, and won.
It can be done.
Do Not Let Anyone Mess With Your R & R.

What this hobby needs is more peloteros with Pelotas.
PASJD stay and fight, don't let the weasels deprive you of what you enjoy.
Your fight is my fight, and we are not alone.
There are others out there with the same concern, and I'm beginning to hear a rumbling sound.

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

Spanish...but i will continue to buy ungraded cards, sell ungraded cards, and when I happen to buy a graded one (even a PSA 8) I will liberate it. Before I sell it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan

I have read enough about how this all works and have gradually become much less inspired with what I read and see on a routine basis. I had always dreamed of collecting as many vintage items as I could, however, after being burned on a few trimmed/graded cards and a few other not-worth-mentioning dealings with a few folks... I have decided to place my stuff up for sale, please view at www.4elitecars.com and let me know if you are interested. Bulk sale price on all items except the Cobb CJ (not mine), Cobb T3 (sold), Shoeless Joe National Game (sold), T200 Cleveland that is SGC graded (sold) and the A&G items (sold).

I have tons more stuff that is not posted on my site, I will be placing all up within the next few weeks.

Bill, thanks for all the hard work that you provide this site. You are a rare type of person.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe P.

"By the Way, I think our buddy Al is a big blow hard, how he can not authenticate a card from a common issue, by himself is shameful for all he thinks he is."
Lee
*
*
At least Alan knows who Jefferson Burdick is.
You just found out recently.
Now for a collector, that's what I call shameful.
If you're not a collector, I apologize.