opinions on this situation please

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Posted By: Jonathan Perry

I am wondering if I can get some opinions from the board on this situation I am currently involved in.
I will try and be brief in the description.
A few months ago I pruchased some Delongs from a seller on e-bay. I ended up purchasing the cards outside of e-bay. The deal was for 4 Delong cards for $130 a piece. The seller sent several pictures of the cards for me to view. After receiving the cards I noticed they were all creased and in lesser condition than was apparent in the pictures. The seller did not mention the large creases running through the back of every card. I contacted the seller the same day I received the cards to request a refund because I was not happy with the cards. I received no response. I tried again a few weeks later no response. I put the cards aside because I really had no use for them.
A few weeks ago I deceided to bring them to the Ft. Washington show to get opinions on the grades. I showed them to Mike Baker and within 5 seconds he told me they were all reprints. Upon closer inspection it was obvious that they were all reprints.
I never paid much attention to authenticity of the cards in the beginning because I was more concerned with the creases.
Baker told me he had never seen reprints this good, apparently someone baked or stuck these cards in the overn to brown them and crinkle them, plus they were creased and damaged on purpose to make them look older.
To make a long story short I did by the cards sometime ago (August 21st is when I paid.) Time just passes so fast these day one can lose track of time here and there.
So I finally get intouch with the seller and tell him that all his cards were reprints and I would like him to take them back and issue a full refund.
He proceeds to tell me that I have created these reprints and he thinks I am trying to scam him. He does not seem to willing to work things out. He believes I am trying to return counterfit cards not the originals he claims he sold me, plus my statue of limitations has run out.
I for one would always stand behind something I sell as legit unless otherwise noted. Autographs cards etc. If you are not happy, then send it back to me and I will give you a full refund no questions asked.
This seller is a PSA authorized dealer, does PSA do anyting to make a dealer stand behind their cards. Am I in the wrong for asking for a refund on conterfit cards this late in the game?
thanks for all your advice. If you do not want to post your reply feel free to just email me directly at jperry@nyc.rr.com

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Posted By: MW

(1) Contact PSA and tell them that one of its PSA authorized dealers sold you four DeLong reprints and refuses to offer you a refund. Explain that they were sold as authentic. Ask to speak to Joe Orlando. Forward all relevant information to him including high quality color photocopies of the cards and correspondence with the seller. If it is necessary to send the actual cards, make sure you include return packaging and postage for steps 2 and 3 below. If your account of the situation is true, he (the seller) should be permanently barred from any associated PSA dealer program. His submission status might also be adversely affected.

(2) The statute (not statue) of limitations has not run out. The seller/scammer obviously has no idea what he/she is talking about. Contact the sheriff/police station closest to the area where this person lives and file a written complaint. Also make a follow-up phone call.

(3) Contact the district attorney's office and file another written complaint. Call them to request the proper forms that you will need to complete. Some states, such as Texas, have very strict laws concerning this type of fraud. You may be entitled to restitution and they (the seller) may be entitled to a fine and/or arrest.

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Posted By: Jonathan Perry

thanks for the great advice!
it is much appreciated

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Posted By: MW

Try to make one last effort to "reason" with the seller. Call him and find out if he has enough experience with vintage cards to be able to distinguish between an original and reprinted 1933 DeLong. Ask him where he got the cards from. Ask him if he has ever encountered this type of problem before. Review his eBay sales records the past few months (if you have them). Take notes as he answers these questions...they may be important later. If this effort is futile then proceed with the above steps. Also, as a public service to others on this forum, publish his eBay user name.

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Posted By: Jonathan Perry

MW can you please send me a e-mail directly. I would like to ask your further opinion of something.

I was planning on threatning the seller with posting his name on several boards.
We all should be ok because this seller primarly deals with modern cards of the last 5 years. I bought the cards from him because I thought he did not know what he had and the price would have been fair for us both.
Jon

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Posted By: MW

It could be that the seller really didn't know that the cards were fake. Even some experienced dealers (who sell newer product) cannot tell the difference. Perhaps if you got several expert hobby opinions and presented these (in writing) to him, a refund would be issued.

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Posted By: MW

Jon just forwarded some additional information to me and the seller of the cards seems genuinely naive about vintage issues. The seller also seems to take the attitude that after 90 days, he no longer has any responsibility in this matter. I don't know what his eBay policy is, but that statute of limitations for fraud is 5 years.

Jon -- as I indicated above, obtain several expert hobby opinions and send the written statements to the seller. If no refund is issued, proceed with steps 1-3 above.

Also, the seller's statement that "who in there [sic] right mind would take damaged cards to get graded," kind of makes me wonder about these people. Did they not expect someone to do this?

This appears to be another case of a seller using ignorance as an legitimate excuse for selling fake crap.

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Posted By: Bob

I don't know about other states but recently a guy convicted of selling fakes on ebay was given jail time in Northwest Arkansas. I believe it involved selling forged signature baseballs in the memorabilia section. There is a fine line between misrepresentation and fraud and there will probably need to be a showing of knowledge and intent to defraud in order to make out a criminal case but it sounds to me like he is right on the borderline.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

but I have three simple words: SUE HIS ASS!!!

The only way these ebay rats are going to be exterminated is being taken down over and over until they are broke and give up for something else.

Making a stink to PSA also seems to be a good idea, assuming they care about their rep (which is questionable given the crap that they seem to be grading lately). I would add to that a fraud report to ebay.

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Posted By: nolemmings (Todd)

Jonathan, save the lsiting, even if you bought it outside of EBay. The seller's words can be used against him in the event you bring an action for misrepresentation. Any reference to the cards being genuine or 70+ years old would be helpful. Any expression of condition would be less helpful, but still may be useful if he represented them as EX+ etc., when there are widely accepted opinions that no card with a crease could grade that high. Also, keep the scans if you still have them, and any communications you have exchanged with him.

Fraud is almost always a tough case to prove, because of its knoweldge and intent elements. You may have negligent misrepresentation or implied warranty claims, however. Good luck.
Regards.............tdd

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Posted By: runscott

You have to make sure that whatever you do actually "hurts" the person, but give them every opportunity first to do the right thing.

Calling the local authorities and filling out a report will cause him big grief.
Getting them in hot water with PSA certainly can't hurt either.

I bought fake cards from someone once and they did the classic response of making it worth so much trouble to me, that I would go away...I didn't. Instead, I contacted everyone who was bidding on any of their auctions and told each of them that this person sells fakes - I was even able to point out to some of them that they were bidding on fakes (fake Ruth signature, etc.). I emailed the seller and told them that this would be my mission in life: costing them every lost sale I possibly could. They finally gave up and sent me a refund. I literally cost the seller thousands of dollars just to get a $100 refund.

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Posted By: Jonathan Perry

Well I spoke to Joe Orlando today and he seemed very helpful. He stated that he was going to contact the scammers personally. That was a very kind thing for him to do. Will see how that goes, if he gets involded and threatens their authorized dealer status. Maybe it will get them to understand that it is best for them to give a refund.

I just can not take all of this corruption in the sports card industry

I think over the next couple of days I am going to be posting my list of buyers and sellers to stay away form.
Maybe we can make it kind of like the buy/sell page...have a continuing update of buyers and sellers to stay clear of.

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Posted By: Terry Knouse

Another question for the board - I bought an old judge card on a whim about 2 months ago, sold 'AS IS' turned out to be a fake old judge - a blatant repro. The seller claims that he did not know if real, does not deal in cards and that it was sold as is. It only set me back 75.00 so no huge deal - but what is the recourse there??

Terry

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Posted By: hankron

Terry, I mean this with respect, but I personally would never bid on a piece of memorabilia aucioned as 'as is.' If a seller can't offer a reasonable guarantee of authenticity and/or satisfaction, he shouldn't be putting it up for sale, and I certainly won't be bidding on it.

I also beleive that you should press and get your money back. Irrelevant to a lack of guarantee, I don't beleive that a seller has the right to sell a fake for $75. This is an ethical, rather than legal opinion.

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Posted By: hankron

I also wish to point out that, irrelevant to the guarantee, if someone sold me a $75 fake, he would either 1) Give me a refund or 2) Soon wish he had.

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Posted By: hankron

As someone who deals with these types of authenticity and forgeries issues, I recommend that buyers do two main things. The first is to keep record(2) of the transactions. This can include email, cancelled check and, best of all, a print out of the ebay web page. If the seller is prominent and well respected, this documentation can help when you turn to sell it.

Second, it is best to get a second opinion on the item within a reasonable period of time. I understand that PSA or SGC or whomever is your favorite expert doesn't have overnight turnover, but I think you should act as quickly as is prudent. If, five years later, you come up to a dealer and say he sold you an altered 1971 Topps common card, he may not remember you and may honestly assume that you are pulling his leg. This is also why you should keep records-- to refresh his memory, incuding what was the sell price.

Though it's not often done and some may think it's weird, there's nothing wrong with emailing a seller and asking them what is the guarantee/return policy or to clarifiy it already stated.

All legitimate sellers should explicitly have a resonable guarantee of authenticity and return policy. Resonable guarantees will differ, and I don't think seller A has to have the same guarantee as seller B. Some sellers will have a lifetime guarantee of authenticity for full refund, some two years. A card seller may say "You have four months to get it graded by your favorite grader. No returns afterwards." If this is stated, and the bidder feels that's resonable, then it's a good policy. If a guarantee is stated and resonable, the buyer does not have a right to change the guarantee. For example, the seller can't on his own extend the 4 month period to a year, then complain that other sellers have a year return policy.

Except for extreme exceptions (none which come to mind), all memorabilia auctions come with a guarantee of authenticity. I don't care what a seller says, if a Babe Ruth Autographed baseball is a fake, the buyer gets his money back. The seller can hem and haw all she wants, it doesn't matter.

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Posted By: leon

First of all "thanks" for posting on our humble vintage board. We appreciate your expertise in our collecting addiction roundtable. I say this with all due respect but I think you bought a $75 fake that was sold "AS IS"....I am no lawyer but I would think most courts of law would construe it to be just that, AS IS. I would at least ask for my money back but know that the oneness would fall on me. Now if this person claimed, in any way, that it was authentic or genuine, then that's a different story. You roll the dice (as you know) with those kinds of buys. I have a nice Lajoie Brunners that is fake as a 3 dollar bill....it was a $45 dollar lesson take care and best regards (btw, I know there are differing opinions but this is mine)

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Posted By: hankron

The above applies to authenticity (including potential alteration/trimming issues) and not to grading. All collectors have the responsibility and ability to judge the grade of a card or other item. If a collector has a card in his possesion, he should be able to make a reasonable judgement of grade and, if it is not satisfactory, return the card. If a collector needs PSA or BGS or SGC five months later to tell them what Very Good is, I suggest they find another hobby ... If the seller has an explicit guarantee that card will grade PSA 7 or better, for example, then that's a different issue.

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Posted By: runscott

if the descriptions says "I don't know nuthin 'bout baseball cards", "AS IS...no refunds", it means:

"I bought this fake card and would like to shove my mistake off on someone else...and make a profit in the process."

I don't think anything too rash is in order, but the seller should certainly have his typing hand cut off.

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Posted By: Hankron

Damnit Leon and Scott, you ruined it! I was trying to break the World's Record of 6 posts in a row by one board member. Now, once again, fame eludes me.

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Posted By: Hankron

On a more serious note: Leon, 'As is' is not a catch all phrase that lets a seller sell anything. Trust me, if someone sells 100 forged Babe Ruth baseballs 'as is', he likely will 'as is' himself to prison.

Even if you buy an old clunker car 'as is', there will be leeway in the required condition, but law says the dealer has to deliver you an actual car-- as opposed to a popcicle stick or Hot Wheels car.

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Posted By: leon

I agree....and Terry got the card....as is....he didn't get a popsicle as is....he got the card....And let me also say I don't generally give a return policy but if I inadvertently sold a fake I would give a refund..because it's the right thing to do...the seller of this card probably knew it was fake and that's why he sold it the way he did...again, I think the wording in the sale would make a difference.......regards all

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Posted By: Hankron

I agree that the wording in the auction matters. If someone honestly writes "I have no clue what this is, or even how old it is. It looks like a baseball player, but I'm not sure as I don't follow sports. I just though I'd put it up on eBay and see if anyone knows what is is or wants it. Being sold as is", the buyer can't complain that they didn't get a genuine Old Judge .... On the other hand, if someone says "I'm offering for auction 1888 Old Judge, from the famous old baseball card set .... Sold as is", the winner either gets a genuine old judge or a refund. The 'as is' may apply to the card's grade or even trimming, but the winner still either gets an Old Judge or a refund.

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Posted By: Hankron

A reprint of an Old Judge is no more a genuine Old Judge than a T-shirt with an image of Mona Lisa is the original Mona Lisa painting hanging in the Louvre. Irrelevent to an 'as is' tacked on at the end of a description, when someone wins in auction the Mona Lisa painting she had better as hell not get a Mona Lisa T-shirt from her mailman. If she does, I suspect that she will not shrug her shoulders and say, "Well, it did say 'as is,' so I guess I'm stuck with a $500,0000,0000 T-shirt." Simularly, when someone bids on a 1888 Old Judge, he better as hell not get a reprint. To me, it's the same situation as with the Mona Lisa, only smaller scale.

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Posted By: MW

In its most common or ordinary usage, the qualifier "as is" is generally applied to language, services or a specific product where there is potential liability on the part of the seller. That liability is often distinguished by the fact that, in the case of some commodities or goods, the items offered are not in "new" condition. That is, they have been subjected to a degree of use or wear that could possibly void a prior warranty or guarantee. In such cases, the words "as is" are appropriately substituted.

Therefore, I tend to agree with David. "As is" is most meaningful when applied to a baseball card's condition or state of wear, NOT the authenticity. Those who are not familiar with how to grade vintage cards might appropriately write that a card is sold "as is." In other words, the corners may be rounded or it may have some creases, but degradation of condition does not cause a card to become bogus or counterfeit. To imply or suggest that "as is" can be properly applied as a solution to authenticity concerns does not seem to be a proper remedy (or excuse).

Before buying any item of questionable authenticity, I think the following questions need to be asked -- (1) Do you (as the seller) believe this item to be original and authentic? (2) Has anyone suggested to you that it might not be? (3) Has any other circumstance led you to believe that it might not be? (4) Have you (as the seller) ever offered ANY OTHER ITEM OR MERCHANDISE where the authenticity was unknown prior to the final sale?

Finally, I believe this subject has been already discussed, but the mindlessly rhetorical sales inclusion of "sold as is" SHOULD NOT BE a proper substitute for a little bit of research, a 5-minute phone call, or an email with an attached image.

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Posted By: RobertS

If the seller clearly states that the card may or may not be real and that you the buyer agree to purchase anyway -- assuming all responsibilities of a final sale, you probably will not ever be able to recoup your loss...and deservedly so.

Meaning --

If a seller says he is selling an Old Judge "as is" then you are entitled to a real Old Judge (not a counterfeit), but cannot return a genuine Old Judge if you don't like the condition.

If he says he is selling a card that may or may not be a genuine Old Judge, but simply looks like one (but could be counterfeit) and the sale is final "as is" then you are out of luck if it isn't real.

I'm assuming you thought the risk was worthwhile and would have re-sold the card for a lot more if it had been real -- with no qualms about getting an unbelievable deal from an unkowledgeable seller. Of course, maybe I'm wrong and you would have cut him in on the profit (in which case, disregard the previous sentence).

I agree with everyone else that it's always best to completely avoid any seller selling dubious cards with "no return" policies.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

As-is does not prevent a fraud claim from being made nor does it prevent a breach of contract claim. It does NOT mean that the seller can sell you anything and call it something else or that the seller can offer you something that he knows is not real. It does mean that if you receive what was listed, you cannot complain about the condition of the house. This means that there are two scenarios where it comes into play and a refund should be expected:

1. Someone sells you a card "as-is", you expect to receive that card. If you receive something else, like a photocopy, reprint or cut out from a book, you have a claim for breach of contract if not fraud.

2. Someone sells you a card "as-is" but states that it is in excellent condition, then the thing arrives looking like it survived 9-11, you have a claim too.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

or do anything else with a computer. His wife sends out scans for him, and stuff. I've e-mailed him asking if it's resally him. It doesn't sound like him.

I also left a phone message for him.

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Posted By: leon

Sr.on a computer is like my wife driving in the city...not gonna happen....it's Jr.....regards all

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Posted By: Terry Knouse

It is Junior - when I am not chasing the kids around the house (after 8:30PM) I try to look and sometimes post. I found Mike's posts very informative and figured since he does a lot of mail order he would know more of the laws that apply in different areas - I value his opinion. The card was a gamble, a cool looking horizontal OJ. The seller had a great rating and his emails said that it was on a thicker stock (thin is a definite give away) and had some sheen (not a copier repro) - I thought what the heck. It was disappointing when it showed up - oh well.

Terry

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Posted By: leon

I think I need to stay off the board for a while as I already have both feet firmly inserted in thy mouth. After reading the posts it is obvious if someone sold me an OLD JUDGE "AS IS"....I would expect an Old Judge and not a fake.....regards all

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Posted By: runscott

So what if you have legal recourse? Do you want to go to court over $100? When you see "as is" and "no refunds" and "I don't know nuthin bout cards"
STAY AWAY STAY AWAY DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER

Geez folks, this is a no-brainer. These people are not honest people who play by society's rules - they are THIEVES who are trying to take your money. Don't give it to them!

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Posted By: runscott

Give them your money - it provides entertainment for us all.

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Posted By: MW

A few questions:

(1) Do you remember how the seller portrayed the card? (besides what you've written above?) Did he mention anything about the card being "old" or "vintage?"

(2) What state is the seller from?

(3) Does the seller offer other vintage cards for sale or does he sell other (non-sports related) antiquities?


The bottom line is that I think you should probably be entitled to a refund or some form of compensation -- especially if the expectation was created that an original N172 was being offered. Adam is correct about "as is" -- it certainly does not provide protection against fraud; nor should it be used as an excuse for ignorance on the part of the seller.

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Posted By: MW

Scott --

You're absolutely correct. When the average non-collector finds something old -- particularly a baseball card -- they immediate contact everyone they know, both dealers and knowledgeable collectors, to find out if they've struck it rich. Even if it's a 1933 Lajoie that has the value printed on the reverse, they still spend their entire weekend investigating the value of what they've just found.

On the other hand, when there are questions about authenticity or when the item (e.g., baseball card) has a dubious nature about it, little or no effort is made by the owner to "dig deeper." Instead, he simply lists it on eBay, much as a fisherman might cast his bait into a muddy brook, and hopes for "the big one."

In the future, maybe eBay will construct a system by which good sellers are rewarded and bad sellers are immediately punished. I have in mind a certain experiment where food consumption in rats is limited by the administration of electrical current. Is the application of such technology on the world wide web that far off?