Kevin Saucier - Adding Value

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Posted By: Wesley

Has anyone here actually given a card to Kevin for inspection?

The endorsement by someone who has never done so just rings hollow.

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Posted By: John

Thanks for the answers jim. I can understand wanting someone to look over your cards- slabbed or not. However, I am not sure how many people would be willing to pay Kevin as I’m not sure what makes Kevin an ‘expert’ any more than grading companies or other ‘highly esteemed’ individuals in the hobby. I’m also a bit concerned that people would theoretically pay Kevin to ‘sign off’ on a card and if Kevin deems such a card to be ‘altered’, that the person would just not buy the card yet allow it to fall into the hands of someone else. When do we stop questioning a card’s authenticity? After bvg, psa, sgc, gai, and random ‘experts’ okay the cards?

If people want to really clean up the hobby, shouldn’t the focus be on-

a. getting bad cards OUT of circulation- out of holders, out of auctions, out of collections

b. ensuring bad cards are NOT holdered in the future

while I understand an individual not wanting bad cards in THEIR collection, if someone KNOWS a certain card is bad, wouldn’t it benefit the HOBBY to make that information known?

Lastly, maybe someone can clue me in- what are kevin’s qualifications to examine cards? I can play around w/pressing corners, bleach, erasers, adding paper, etc., but I’m not so sure that makes me an ‘expert’.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Well, I’ve been sitting back now for a couple days reading the insults mixed with a few compliments and my future being planned by those who don’t even know me. There have even been posts by those who have sent me cards to examine, called or sent emails for advice...for the fee of…nothing. This is something I have enjoyed doing for some time for hobby friends because they trust my opinion. Most of these are friends from the few years I spent on LTS, a place I really enjoyed.

Seriously what I have I done? I came on to Net54 and made some educational posts on how to identify altered cards, a subject many feel I have something to offer the hobby. Much has been met with appreciation and kind comments mixed with a little criticism. I still get daily emails from collectors of all levels asking for opinions, all of which I try my best to answer. I don’t believe I’ve ever asked for anything in return and have never made a penn...not a cent.

Not so long ago Jim (someone at the time I had never met) made the suggestion that he and others might want a service of someone with experience, other than a grading company, to verify cards were not altered. Sounded like a good idea so I ran with it...why not?

In a day or so I plan to launch a very simple website that gathers all the articles and posts I have made on identifying altered cards and put them into a common place for those who wish to view it. I’m honored to have some great testimonials from some very respected names in the hobby on there. It’s a website, much like many of you have, in which you share the knowledge and passion of what you know best. Websites, which I enjoy going to so I can learn from others.

The service I may offer in the future is mentioned but not available. It’s still in the planning stages. I can assure you that it is not a business venture, if anything it may pay for gas. I’m not starting a grading company, grading cards, challenging grades, trying to save the hobby or taking over the world. I have no idea what, if any, arrangements can or will be made by someone wanting cards examined. Although many here have speculated or assumed there is a plan.

I think it is unfortunate that the perception is that Jim and I have joined together and spent a long time planning a way to force all collectors, dealers and auction houses to send cards my way. Nothing can be farther from the truth. Jim has a plan for his cards and has, perhaps, gone a little over the top to express his intentions. We barely know each other; we met at dinner about a month ago and have exchanged an email or two.

Personally, I find it a bit sickening and disheartening that others are so quick to pass judgment and are outright vicious in attacking what they may or may not know about what I have to offer the hobby. For those that had well wishes and compliments...thank you!

To answer some questions; It is true that examining a card in a slab much more difficult than raw. There are times when an opinion cannot be given based on the fact the entire card or enough of the card is not viewable. What can take a few minutes for a raw card can take as much as 15 minutes (or more) on one that is slabbed...even spent over 30 minutes on some cards, whatever it takes. It’s a gathering of objective findings used to make an opinion and reassure a card has not been altered. It also helps to know the provenance, if any.

I have seen more than a few cards valued well over $5K that have absolutely positively been altered, one or more may have been used in some examples I have shown. It’s not my business to show a card, out a collector or collection. I don’t own the card(s).

Also, I don’t know anything about the coin hobby or what they do.



Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Kevin,

I don't think anyone here has argued against the fact you may be able to add value in the way you have in the past for your friends. IMO, the debate here is centered around this service "potentially" being a good business venture. You clearly stated it is NOT a business venture and I think you say that for some of the same reasons stated in the thread. To be a business venture there must be a good bit of steady volume. So thanks for ending that debate.

But before you come here and try to slam people for giving strong opinions on the topic you might want to go back and read the thread again. Then remember this is a chat forum meant for debate. Jim put us in a position to give our opinion on this topic so we did.

Sorry you may not like a lot of the opinions. Perhaps you should tell Jim you don't need this type of attention.

Tom

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

I don't know. Is every collector morally obligated to list every card he thinks is trimmed. Also, Kevin is giving me his opinion on whether he is comfortable--and I would pay him for it. Even if Kevin says he thinks its trimmed--lets sya PSA or SGC thinks otherwise--doesn't mean it is or it isn't. I do see your point though.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian,

I am not avoiding your question. I have been kicked off message boards twice--once by Joe Orlando for being critical of PSA(we have patched things up and I am invited to PSA for a tw0-day collectors event) and once by Tom Papa for whathever Tom says I was kicked off for(obviously we have not patched things up). There have been no instances where I resigned because I was going to get kicked off.

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Posted By: Dave F

Kevin,
IMO there are many on the board that respect what knowledge you've provided concerning card alterations. But I do think you have to take everything you've read here with a grain of salt. I would certainly think that you, yourself would equally find it "weird" how much Crandell has praised you and basically announced you as the card lord of all that is good and decent.

Having Jim speak on your behalf, be it you asked him to or not...is probably not a good thing. As is pretty evident..Jim has a history that has followed him around of raising cane, causing arguements, getting kicked off boards, etc. While Jim is of course high up on a list with the collection he possess he certainly lacks in common sense at times and seems to enjoy getting into these board debacles.

For all reasons of sanity Kevin, best bet for this endeavor would probably be to speak with Jim and ask him not to be your commercial voice on the subject. I think you'd be better off. Just my opinion of course.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Frank,

I see Kevin as more than "basement experiments with bleaching and soaking".
I think SGC has an excellent knowledge about cards and I think Kevin does--just because I am not sure who is better is no indication about Kevin. I just used SGC for example--I would say the same thing about PSA.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Charlie,

You are misquoting me--I never said Mike was endorsing Kevin 100 percent--I have no idea--Kevin told me he had endorsements from Rob and Mike--thats all I know.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Bug on the Rug--the 94 Donruss man--what happened to your laundrymat in Madison?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wesley,

I like Kevin--he is a talented guy--I will use him when I can--if you think differently fine

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Posted By: pas

It seems to me we should give Kevin a chance to do whatever it is he is going to do, and hope that Jim at some point will report back to us on the results if he starts sending cards to Kevin to inspect. I am skeptical for the reasons mentioned (that I think review inside a slab is very limited) but wish Kevin luck. And now, back to LTS vs. Jim Crandell, sorry for the interruption.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Kevin,

Thanks for clearing things up--as you see people like Papa are trying to find a vehicle to attack me--because I want to use you to be a double check on my cards. I still think it was a good idea I came up with.

Apparently many people feel threatened about you and express it by criticizing me--it is always ok to attack me as it is nothing new--just look at all the lies and misstatements on this post about me, who is endorsing you, what it means etc.

Just think at who the attackers of you and I are.....and you will sit back and smile and realize you have nothing to worry about.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Call it what you want Peter. But, I think it's obvious that no matter how slow I read it ......or how many times I read it .....it just isn't the great business venture Jim says it is. There are a lot of people here that agree with me that aren't from LTS. It seems like you are one of them based on your comment above.

But I too wish Kevin luck. I know he's a good guy. Unfortuantely, the Merlin of our industry has latched on to him. Kevin needs to shake him off.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

There you go again. You draw first blood and than scream "attack!!! attack!!!"

What a coward you are.

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Posted By: pas

Tom no question I have a great deal of skepticism not so much about Kevin in particular (although the burden of proof is on him to establish his credentials) but on the value of what I call ubergrading. That said, though, it seems irrelevant to me whether Jim was kicked off CU or LTS

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Does it Peter? It think it goes to the fact Jim starts a lot of crap of forums and has a track record of being thrown off them to bring peace. I certainly understood the relevance.

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Posted By: pas

I note several LTSers who never post on this forum jumping in to gleefully attack Jim. What is their point? Jim did not even start this thread, by the way. I guess we can disagree Tom on the relevance.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Agreed Peter.

I would note I rarely post on this forum. That said, I feel compelled to address what Jim says about LTS. It doesn't matter if he started the thread or not. He chose to drag LTS into the conversation so he drug LTS members here. He can only blame himself and you must admit he brings it on himself.

It's pretty simple. It you throw punches you should be able to take them. The attack rants are laughable.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Kevin,

Good luck with the new endeavor. I still think you and Baker could form a formidable team at GAI or elsewhere.

Best

CB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

For those of you who don't know--Tom started LTS to give me a place to post. He will admit it. As I had been kicked off CU he and others wanted to create a place where people could tell it like it is and I became one of the very first members. So those of you that like to run through my message board history should keep in mind that Tom and pretty much everyone who joined LTS backed me in the PSA disputes. Nearly all the quality posters on the Set Registry Message Board joined LTS.

As LTS grew they let in all different kinds of people. Some of them just wanted to talk about cards and not issues--I am an issues guy--that got some angry. After a few message boards disputes Tom told me to send my suggestions to him and not just put them on the message boards. At the end I think i told him he should get rid of 3 members--against the advice of at least 1 and maybe more moderators he got rid of me instead. Shortly after he quit LTS and took a sabbatical.

In the next year, a number of members sent me posts from the board where my name was mentioned-this caused another round of attacks on me for receiving the messages as LTS members are not supposed to send posts. After the attacks subsided, I reached an agreement with Al Crisafulli where I would stop receiving threads and in return he would police LTS re threads about me.

Today I am friends with a lot of LTS members including Al who says so and a whole host of people I have known for some time. Obviously Tom is not included which is sad but you never know--

Tom can and will correct this but I tried to make this factual.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

Its funny isn't it--Bug on the Rug for goodness sakes. Couldn't they have dragged in anyone better than that?

All for good natured kidding and tongue-in-cheek humor

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Pretty funny twisting of the truth. As usual.

I won't bore people with the facts as to why LTS was created, or our relationship unless they overwhelmingly request it. I'm committed to not damaging your reputation more than you make me. I do have a heart Jim.

You should relax and do the same for the reputation of LTS or this will NEVER end.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Likewise Tom.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Charlie,

I agree with you here....but one question--do you think that the GAI brand name is still viable after all their issues?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

GAI has done major damage to their remaining credibility in the hobby. And I am concerned about the lack of information they are deceminating. But, I am also partisan because I like Baker tremendously and strongly believe this hobby needs three viable grading companies.

If GAI is to return they are going to need a niche. Kevin's niche might be it.

CB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Good point Charlie--agree--I like Baker as well and believe he is the best grader in the hobby--and Kevin has actually been able to show him and teach him a couple of things although I am sure Mike has been able to show Kevin a lot more.

The Dream Team.

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Posted By: JohnG

Jim

clearly you ARE obsessed with LTS.

why not ask to rejoin since you seemingly can't make a couple of posts without bringing them up.

They must have cut you deep man.lol

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Posted By: JimCrandell

JohnG,

Another LTS guy??

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Posted By: Brian

Kevin, I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your post. I value your opinion, and would gladly ask your opinion on a card. Its sad that your name is being used in such a manner.

The Dav PR machine generates these types of dialogues regardless of the subject. Sadly, you are his current topic de jour. So was SGC at some point (what did they get out of it?). So was GAI at some point (what did they get out of it?). Each was used as leverage to get a registry HOF certificate or proper "respect" from JO -- its nice to know "friends" are useful. When you have used up your usefulness to him, he will move on.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian is right--it is sad that I mentioned that your website would be ready and that I would send you cards.

Its also sad that he can't get his facts right and misrepresents the truth.

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Posted By: Dave F

Jim,

At this point instead of trying to get everyone here to see your way of thinking, why not just plan on sending Kevin any cards you come up with as candidates to purchase...and do it quietly?

Why continue on this rampage publicly for Kevin? I don't think he needs your help...in fact possibly he's just too nice of a guy to come out and tell you to quit.

If your purpose is to have your own cards you will potentially buy looked at by Kevin..then so be it. But you don't have to keep dragging this through the mud at the expense of Kevin's reputation.

Dave

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Good point Charlie--agree--I like Baker as well and believe he is the best grader in the hobby--and Kevin has actually been able to show him and teach him a couple of things although I am sure Mike has been able to show Kevin a lot more.

The Dream Team.

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Posted By: Brian

Jim,

Do you honestly think Kevin is happy about the attention you are bringing him?

If Kevin had announced his website on his own, do you think he'd be getting the same negative response you have brought him?

These are rhetorical questions as the answers are obvious.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

That was nice of you to say.

He came to me and said he was approaching me, Rob and Mike Baker for endorsements to his sight. I said fine and he took a sentence or two I said about him. I said his site was up and thought it was a good business concept(since I thought of it--ha).

This is just LTS bs and not worth the paper its printed on--Kevin's business will succeed or not on its own merits.....although they do say any publicity is good publicity.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian,

Read poast below.

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Posted By: Keith Conforti

Jim, you did a lot more than just mention the launch of his website... go back read through your posts... you touted him as having "arrived" because Leon was giving threads about him extra attention... you've repeatedly advocated how he possibly succeed at a business venture.

Don't backtrack now or try to change your story... you won't be helping Kevin out very much by doing so.

Yeah, I'm and LTSer and a former mod, I won't deny it, but I didn't come here to make attacks, just to set the record straight regarding your description of a decent chat board that you are no longer a member of and agreed to cease and desist all public discussion of... so, in essence, by chatting up LTS here, you invited me.

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Posted By: Brian

Any publicity is good publicity? With friends like Dav, who needs enemies. Kevin's first post about his website was a defensive one due to Dav's glorious PR.

I think its sad. Kevin is a good guy with alot to offer. But anyone hear will think of him as Jim's peg boy; instead of realizing what he brings to the table.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Sadly,

Brian turns out to be another LTS shill--they are pulling them out of the woodwork.

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Posted By: Brian

The black helicopter's are circling Jim.

I have posted at 54 long before you started posting here. Who is the shill?

At one point Dav, you had over 150 T206's in PSA 8 or better. And yet you had never even looked at their backs. How is that possible?

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=224703

You really are on the wrong board.

Brian

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Posted By: Keith Conforti

Jim, you don't get it do you? You pulled us out of the woodwork by breaking the rules of your agreement with Al. Don't talk about LTS. Period.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian Scantland,

You conveneniently leave out the fact that Kevin asked me to endorse his capabilities. And please tell me how I used GAI or SGC. I am sure Mike/Steve and Dave Forman who I count among my good friends in the hobby will be interested to hear this.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Lots of LTS members are members here. Jim's posts reek of sour grapes.

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Posted By: Brian

<<You conveneniently leave out the fact that Kevin asked me to endorse his capabilities.>>



Kevin, are you happy with the publicity Dav has created for you? Do you want him to continue his fine work on your behalf?

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Jim,

It's funny but Kevin has also left that fact out of his posts. He actually seems to be distancing himself from you when he clears says "we barely know each other".

The squirrels are running wild on N54.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I feel compelled to chime in here. Sorry to add to the clutter.

I see nothing whatsoever wrong with a collector looking for a second opinion before making a purchase - whether it be from Kevin or anyone else. Sometimes in this hobby, opportunities present themselves to buy cards that a collector may or may not be familiar with. I certainly have a handful of people I consider experts, and I'm more than happy to look to them for guidance from time to time, and on the one or two sets where I have some knowledge, I'm more than happy to answer whatever questions get thrown my way. There's nothing earth-shattering about that.

I don't think this thread was started to trash Kevin, it was started by Mike to provide some suggestions on how Kevin might enhance a business he's thinking of creating. Anyone who has weighed in on this issue has an opinion on Kevin's abilities, and that horse has been beaten to death.

Unfortunately, though, Jim has decided to weigh in on Kevin's behalf, and in the process, to drag another message board into the discussion. At first I wasn't sure why Jim was doing this, because it did not help further his argument and probably reflected poorly on Kevin. It also got the thread off track in a hurry. But 200+ posts later, I think I understand that Jim enjoys the fact that he becomes embroiled in threads that encourage heated debate, regardless of the content of the debate.

While I enjoy busy threads as much as the next guy, I'm usually just not that interested in all the drama. I get involved in it sometimes because we can't always help it, but I generally have tried to stay away.

The problem here, and the reason I'm posting, is that Jim is continuously referring to another message board in his posts on 54, and I don't think it's appropriate for a number of reasons. First of all, because I think it's disrespectful to the Net54 community to flaunt another message board within this forum. Second of all, because I think it portrays that board - a community of which I am a member - in an unnecessarily negative light. It's just another chatboard, with its own purpose and its own community of loyal members - just like this one, of which I am also proud to be a member.

But the third reasons I'm posting is because I am trying to understand why Jim - who agreed with me privately last night to stop dragging that other message board into his posts here - continues to discuss that board. For someone who has been a vocal opponent of hijacking threads on this board, my opinion is that every time he mentions the other board, he hijacks a thread. I don't get it.

I also don't get why Jim, who has referred to the other board as "boring" and "funny" and a "secret society," along with several other negatives over the last few days, would have privately asked me - yesterday - if I could help to reinstate his membership there. I reached out to Jim privately, as a friend, and asked him to kindly stop using LTS as a way to create drama here. Despite the fact that I advised him I would not pursue reinstating his membership on LTS, he agreed to stop discussing LTS on this board.

So I went to sleep.

This morning when I arrived at the office, I was surprised to see Jim discussing LTS here again. Best I can tell, he has some degree of fixation on it, to the point that he is willing to risk friendships over something as silly as using it to polarize this board. Of course, by insulting it, he only encourages its members to come to its defense, much like loyal 54 members have come to the defense of this board within other forums.

It's weird, and I can't figure it out. Jim is generally a nice guy who enjoys creating controversy, which is a personality trait that isn't exclusive to Jim by any means. I have come to Jim's defense multiple times, because I think in a lot of cases people pounce on him without reason. But in this case I think he's being deliberately insulting, he's deliberately creating ill will, and he's detracting from the topic in a negative way.

I wish he would stop, but evidently he won't.

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Keith,

I didn't know it was against the rules to mention your esteemed organization. I thought I agreed not to accept any threads your guys kept sending me. If you want to be so secretive that noone can even mention the letters lts in sequence fine--in fact I told Al that if that was the deal I made I would live up to it.. I turned out it wasn't but nonetheless I told him that based on our friendship and what he has done for me if it bothered him that much to poke fun at LTS then I would stop.

Even though I know you trashed me in a thread on lts your comments have been fair and I hold no grudge.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

What's that Al? Jim asked you just yesterday to help him get reinstated on LTS?

There you have it folks. Jealousy, as usual. Who's the lunatic now?

Jim - You'll never get on LTS. Period.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

Yup--they are scared of you.

Coming out of the woodwork so to speak.

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Posted By: pas

Don't they say the third time's a charm?