What the hell is the deal with this PWCC auction

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look at the bidding history. And in particular retractions.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142398384790...p2471758.m4703

http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/142...p2047675.l2565

[Peter_Spaeth]

High bidder has 14 retractions. Ahem.

[bnorth]

Peter I have no idea what you are referring to, looks like a normal PWCC auction to me.

Also are you forgetting they have super fast shipping.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at the bidding history. And in particular retractions.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142398384790...p2471758.m4703

http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/142...p2047675.l2565

Just another day at the office in Oregon. But I am sure if you had taken the time to tell Brent rather than embarrassing him here I am sure he would get on it immediately.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by botn

Just another day at the office in Oregon. But I am sure if you had taken the time to tell Brent rather than embarrassing him here I am sure he would get on it immediately.

I guess it got past that full time checker. As did all those folks with more than 10 retractions bidding on Jordans from a post a short while back.

[frankbmd]

All retractions however crazy are 100% legit and rational.

[oldjudge]

Forget the retractions, why would anyone pay $22,000 for a 1965 Frank Robinson card? This is insanity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Forget the retractions, why would anyone pay $22,000 for a 1965 Frank Robinson card? This is insanity.

They aren't paying for the card, they are paying for the flip, Jay.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess it got past that full time checker. As did all those folks with more than 10 retractions bidding on Jordans from a post a short while back.

Well it is a good thing the full time checker only missed this Roby and a Jordan auction. I am sure that person got all the others who are manipulating his auctions.

Keep doing what you are doing Brent. I think the hobby supports you.

[PhillipAbbott79]

It looks like 1..3 had a high bid in, then 4..A bid and found out the number was high but got outbid.

Then again to match, they retracted the bid that was bid up. Then 4..A attempted again at 50k and the bid up price was again redacted.

Yea. How does a retraction go under the radar 2 to 4 times, let alone being over the 'limit' on retractions.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

Yea. How does a retraction go under the radar 2 to 4 times, let alone being over the 'limit' on retractions.

I would guess they go under the radar because they are the ones "supporting" Brent.

[spaidly]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Forget the retractions, why would anyone pay $22,000 for a 1965 Frank Robinson card? This is insanity.

OMG. So much this ^^^^^^^^^^^

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They aren't paying for the card, they are paying for the flip, Jay.

Peter, you are on fire today. 👏👏👏

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Forget the retractions, why would anyone pay $22,000 for a 1965 Frank Robinson card? This is insanity.

For my #1 PSA registry set, of course.

[mechanicalman]

What's the over/under that this card will be featured in a PSA ad in their SMR magazine where it shows the ungraded value at $4 and a graded value at $34,582.

[Beastmode]

A new level or retractivism. Retracting within a bid while have over 10 retractions in the last 10 months. And still high bidder........

[Fred]

I wish I had unlimited resources. I'd buy the damn thing, crack it out in front of a video camera with a bunch of "reputable" witnesses that know nothing about card collecting. I would then submit the card to PSA for grading. Since it's me, I'm going to guess I can guarantee a 9 grade and maybe a 9.5 grade. Then I'd put it back to auction and see what it gets. Then I'd publish exactly what occurred and show everyone just how stupid this hobby has become.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Fred

I would then submit the card to PSA for grading. Since it's me, I'm going to guess I can guarantee a 9 grade and maybe a 9.5 grade.

PSA doesn't have a 9.5 grade

[Brent Huigens]

This is an extremely frustrating situation for us. We have been in communication with both bidders who retracted bids on this listing. The original high bidder (the first bidder to retract) clearly retracted in violation of eBay and PWCC policy. Following our communication that bidder cancelled yet another bid and is now permanently blocked from participating in future auctions. The other bidder (the current high bidder) became frustrated by the first retraction and understandably questioned the legitimacy of the auction. He/she then retracted again to change his/her max bid given the fact that it had been revealed by the original retraction. He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months, and has every intention to proceed with the purchase should he/she win the card.

We have emphasized this very case with eBay Trust & Safety as a textbook example of the problems that bid retractions cause to the auction environment.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions

[BeanTown]

Did all their bids get cancelled out when they got banned, including other listings? Just curious if there are any other textbook cases on a PWCC listing that wasn't caught by a Net54 member.

It might be nice to post the banned eBay user IDs along with the date on a new Net54 thread. Then just add to the list every time a user gets banned. It would not only show PWCC making an attempt to prohibit it, but also alert other sellers to keep an eye out on certain eBay names.

[T206Collector]

Um... why do people put max bids on ebay instead of sniping? Ever? This practice continues to amaze me. Bid retractions done to out your high bid = another reason why sniping is the only way to fly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

This is an extremely frustrating situation for us. We have been in communication with both bidders who retracted bids on this listing. The original high bidder (the first bidder to retract) clearly retracted in violation of eBay and PWCC policy. Following our communication that bidder cancelled yet another bid and is now permanently blocked from participating in future auctions. The other bidder (the current high bidder) became frustrated by the first retraction and understandably questioned the legitimacy of the auction. He/she then retracted again to change his/her max bid given the fact that it had been revealed by the original retraction. He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months, and has every intention to proceed with the purchase should he/she win the card.

We have emphasized this very case with eBay Trust & Safety as a textbook example of the problems that bid retractions cause to the auction environment.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions

The current high bidder has 14 retractions if I am reading it correctly. What happened to the 10 max policy? Or is there an exception for regular bidders who spend a lot of money?

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 87
Items bid on: 40
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 39% Help
Bid retractions: 4
Bid retractions (6 months): 14

[1952boyntoncollector]

At least ebay allows you to see these things...imagine what goes on in the other houses where you have no idea about who 'outbid' you.

With pwcc's new rules in place, if you 'win' the item im sure they will let you back out of it if someone retracted a bid making you the high bidder..or if your bid is higher than any bid that was placed by a later bid retracter.

In addition, even if there arent any bid retractions in a specific auction but the bidding involves bidders with 10 retractions for example in the last 6 months,i would imagine pwcc will also let you out of your 'winning' bid.

until pwcc enforces someone to actually buy the item in an auction involving a bid retractor person..its sort of a non issue

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Um... why do people put max bids on ebay instead of sniping? Ever? This practice continues to amaze me. Bid retractions done to out your high bid = another reason why sniping is the only way to fly.

+1 billion

edited to add: The one thing I miss from hiding the bidder ID's of winners is the expletive laced diatribes people would send you through eBay messages if you sniped them in the early days. Granted sniping was risky business in the dial-up days because of slooooooow connections, but those messages were hilarious.

[Republicaninmass]

He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months,

And her/his spouse has consignments of almost $60,000 with PWCC in the last three months.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Did all their bids get cancelled out when they got banned, including other listings? Just curious if there are any other textbook cases on a PWCC listing that wasn't caught by a Net54 member.

It might be nice to post the banned eBay user IDs along with the date on a new Net54 thread. Then just add to the list every time a user gets banned. It would not only show PWCC making an attempt to prohibit it, but also alert other sellers to keep an eye out on certain eBay names.

I believe some auction catalogs have listed the actual names of some people that didnt buy the items they won and they were put on a 'shame list'

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months,

And her/his spouse has consignments of almost $60,000 with PWCC in the last three months.

Shill death do us part.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

and 11 here on the same card

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

Card bid up to 32K within 12 hours of listing. Uh, ok.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

At least ebay allows you to see these things...imagine what goes on in the other houses where you have no idea about who 'outbid' you.

With pwcc's new rules in place, if you 'win' the item im sure they will let you back out of it if someone retracted a bid making you the high bidder..or if your bid is higher than any bid that was placed by a later bid retracter.

In addition, even if there arent any bid retractions in a specific auction but the bidding involves bidders with 10 retractions for example in the last 6 months,i would imagine pwcc will also let you out of your 'winning' bid.

until pwcc enforces someone to actually buy the item in an auction involving a bid retractor person..its sort of a non issue

What rules? The current high bidder on the Robinson has 14 retractions in 6 months and Brent (Betsy) is explaining that they are legit because they have spent a lot of money with PWCC.

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

and 11 here on the same card

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

Card bid up to 32K within 12 hours of listing. Uh, ok.

Gotta love all of those bids in the first hour that a 10-day listing has gone live. Does anybody legitimately think there's a logical reason (that doesn't involve shilling) for doing so??

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Gotta love all of those bids in the first hour that a 10-day listing has gone live. Does anybody legitimately think there's a logical reason (that doesn't involve shilling) for doing so??

LOL......touche...I barely get off the .99 cent opener until the last hour of bids.

[shagrotn77]

Gotta love all of those bids in the first hour that a 10-day listing has gone live. Does anybody legitimately think there's a logical reason (that doesn't involve shilling) for doing so??

No.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Gotta love all of those bids in the first hour that a 10-day listing has gone live. Does anybody legitimately think there's a logical reason (that doesn't involve shilling) for doing so??

Yes these is a reason for it. It is slimy also but not as bad as shilling. The items with more bids/looks get placed higher on the eBay list of items that are shown when you don't do a specific search like ending soonest or most recently listed.

You can see this with most large eBay consigners/sellers and it is always the same IDs doing it. They usually have a high # of bids per month and insanely low feedback for the # of bids placed.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What rules? The current high bidder on the Robinson has 14 retractions in 6 months and Brent (Betsy) is explaining that they are legit because they have spent a lot of money with PWCC.

right if they spent 40k that wouldnt of been enough but 60k is enough

Still, if you or I ended up winning that auction and we then asked to be let go of the obligation with no recourse and they allowed it, its still a non issue to me....at least there is transparency sort of in ebay auction....with ZERO in other auctions..

If people started backing out (beep beep) of their 'wins' due to bid retractions, i do believe pwcc would police it more...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right if they spent 40k that wouldnt of been enough but 60k is enough

Still, if you or I ended up winning that auction and we then asked to be let go of the obligation with no recourse and they allowed it, its still a non issue to me....at least there is transparency sort of in ebay auction....with ZERO in other auctions..

If people started backing out (beep beep) of their 'wins' due to bid retractions, i do believe pwcc would police it more...

I don't know how much is enough, but if you are going to make a big deal about your supposed 10 retraction policy, then enforce it and don't make exceptions for people who spend a lot of money with you, as that completely undercuts your credibility.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't know how much is enough, but if you are going to make a big deal about your supposed 10 retraction policy, then enforce it and don't make exceptions for people who spend a lot of money with you, as that completely undercuts your credibility.

understood, bur if 'winners' start refusing to pay for their cards due to issues we discussed...it will resolve itself...

Another issue..is when if you have 10 bid retractions because you only retract in an auction when someone else retracts that was the high bidder.... People have stated here that they do that . It easily possible to have 50 bid retractions in a year if you are bidding on these HOF 1960s PSA 10 cards or 60s mantle PSA 8.5s of the world. A huge difference in what a winning price can be on those cards...and ripe for shill retractions (and countermeasure retractions from legit bidders)....same with 1980s PSA 10s etc

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by JustinD

+1 billion

edited to add: The one thing I miss from hiding the bidder ID's of winners is the expletive laced diatribes people would send you through eBay messages if you sniped them in the early days. Granted sniping was risky business in the dial-up days because of slooooooow connections, but those messages were hilarious.

I had forgotten about stuff like that. I only recall it happening to me once where the underbidder contacted me. They called me a "Cheater."

[tschock]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I had forgotten about stuff like that. I only recall it happening to me once where the underbidder contacted me. They called me a "Cheater."

Sorry, Dan. I mistyped. I meant "Cheetah", you quick little animal you. At least that's how we say it on Long-g Island.

[slidekellyslide]

This is why PWCC made a huge mistake in putting a defined number on bid retractions. They are being pressured here to ban a bidder who has spent thousands of dollars with them so far this year. They do it and they lose out on a lot of money, they don't do it and they look like hypocrites.


PWCC has sway with ebay, they should be lobbying them to allow sellers to automatically block bidders with bid retractions. I guarantee serial rectractors would cease to exist.

[Brent Huigens]

It is true that one of the bidders in this listing exceeds our threshold of bid retractions. We have been in close contact with him/her due to the concerning retractions on this listing. In this case we have a somewhat naïve bidder
using bid retractions inconsiderately but not maliciously. He/she has won and paid for almost $60k in the last three months with PWCC which demonstrates his/her follow through with his/her purchases.

We have explained our policies to this bidder and the inheritant damage that bid retractions cause to the auction environment which has been met with apologies and understanding and agreement to refrain from retracting moving forward. With this in mind we believe the bidder's bid retraction count will improve and we have decided to allow this bidder to continue to bid. If we notice more retractions by this user ID it will be blocked.

Yesterday we held a conference call with the eBay Trust & Safety team to show this as a case study of the fundamental brokenness of the the bid retraction tool and how it can enable otherwise good members of the community to act in a way that is disruptive.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months,

And her/his spouse has consignments of almost $60,000 with PWCC in the last three months.

OK, that's funny....

[Peter_Spaeth]

"There are a few exceptions, a few provisos and a couple of quid pro quos”- Genie (aka Robin Williams in Disney’s Aladdin).

See footnote 1 to the policy for non-malicious retractions.

EDITED TO ADD: pitiful, IMO.

[ruth-gehrig]

It seems as PWCC will have a response defending their position regardless

[ALR-bishop]

Inconsiderate but not malicious. I wonder how many different types of retractions there are in total.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

It seems as PWCC will have a response defending their position regardless

That's what they do. Spin and excuse.

[botn]

Just a wild guess but I think Trust and Safety is just as "frustrated" by the bid retraction/auction manipulation as Brent is.

[calvindog]

Psssst. Fraud goes on regularly in PWCC auctions.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

This is an extremely frustrating situation for us. We have been in communication with both bidders who retracted bids on this listing. The original high bidder (the first bidder to retract) clearly retracted in violation of eBay and PWCC policy. Following our communication that bidder cancelled yet another bid and is now permanently blocked from participating in future auctions. The other bidder (the current high bidder) became frustrated by the first retraction and understandably questioned the legitimacy of the auction. He/she then retracted again to change his/her max bid given the fact that it had been revealed by the original retraction. He/she is a very regular bidder and has spent almost $60k with PWCC in the last three months, and has every intention to proceed with the purchase should he/she win the card.

We have emphasized this very case with eBay Trust & Safety as a textbook example of the problems that bid retractions cause to the auction environment.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions

All you had to do was block anyone over 5, and this would have never happened. This response is a waste of your breath. Let me guess, that was your last post on the topic, right?

[bigfish]

PWCC continues to justify their stance and then plays the victim. You guys are a hoot.



Toby Peterson

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We have explained our policies to this bidder and the inheritant damage that bid retractions cause to the auction environment which has been met with apologies and understanding and agreement to refrain from retracting moving forward. With this in mind we believe the bidder's bid retraction count will improve and we have decided to allow this bidder to continue to bid. If we notice more retractions by this user ID it will be blocked.

You meant "inherent" damage not "inheritant" damage but for PWCC to be explaining the harm of bid retractions to someone, in light of its track record of a slow and reluctant and excuse-laden response to the issue and even now blatantly admitting to making exceptions to its own supposed policy for people who spend a lot of money, is IMO unbelievably hypocritical. It seems you folks will say anything.