New member

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Although my computer skills are limited to eBay and email, a fellow member of the network encouraged me to join. I never even knew such a network existed, and am glad to be a part of it. Happy to talk pins with whomever. Don't know much about non-pins. I have read a few comments about my book, Baseball Pinback Buttons. I'm sorry some of the photos turned out on the dark side, but that was my first fling at digital photography. Also some comments about being "poorly categorized". I did my best, guys. My fault for there not being a page number on every page. I learned the hard way about all that goes into book publishing. In any event, would love to talk about any and all aspects of pins, my collection, why I did or didn't include X in the book, and so on. Thanks to Aaron who informed me of the network's existence.

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Posted By: Rhys Yeakley

Nice to meet you Paul. Do you have information or speculation on how many Cameo Pepsin Gum Pins of Louis Sockalexis exist. From what I can gather the answer is (2) but I would love to know if you have heard otherwise.

Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: Max Weder

Paul

Welcome to the board. I'm a baseball book guy, but I did purchase your book, and it is apparent how much work went into it.

Max

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Rhys,

I'm sorry I don't know. The complete manifest of the Cameo Pepsin pins have never been documented, to the best of my knowledge. The company also put out a set of boxers from that era. Both the baseball and boxing pins become known when someone stumbles upon one, documents it, and thereby it becomes part of the hobby's knowledge base. At least the baseball pins have strong images. The boxing pins are often mistakenly described as "faded". Although some may be just due to age, the primary reason for their appearance is the very poor contrast between the foreground and background. However, out of respect to the pinmaker, the technology had been patented only two years previously. Rob Lifson recently sold the largest known batch of Cameo Pepsin pins. You may wish to check his catalogue for specimens of your player in question. I know of no better source. The history of pinbacks contains enough stories to break a collector's heart. Bastian Brothers bought out Whitehead and Hoag. One of the conditions of the sale was that the full manifest of all pins WH ever made (sports, political, advertising, fraternal, etc.) would be destroyed. It was. Thus our hobby is continously uncovering new "finds" that once upon a time were fully documented, including press runs. Good luck!

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Thank you for the kind words. When I look at books that contain photos of baseball items, like the recently published Smithsonian volume, I realize how "amateurish" my photos look. But as a photographer, that's what I am, an amateur. To have the pins "professionally photographed" would have put the cost of the book out of my budget, and I thought the pins themselves were more important than their photographic depiction.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Rhys,
Being the former owner of the Cameo Pepsin lots that Rob sold last year I can tell you that I did have a Sockalexis pin but I didnt include it in the lot. I had sold it to a private buyer about a year before I decided to sell the entire lot I had. I can tell you also from "good" authority that another LARGE lot of Cameo Pepsins 30+ will be coming on the market very soon.
Dr. M nice to see you here. Would love to talk pins anytime with you.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Paul- I really don't know much about pins, but along with Corey Shanus I did contribute an article to the Smithsonian book. Welcome to the board. My computer skills sound like they are about equal to yours, but it's easy to post.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Paul,

We were introduced at the most recent National, and I was thrilled to have the chance to tell you how much I enjoy and appreciate your book. I'm glad I have the opportunity to do it again in this forum.

The only pins I collect are Cleveland Indians-related, and I can't express enough what a pleasure it is to have such a near-comprehensive reference to so many of the vintage Indians pins that were produced. I've bought your book as gifts for fellow collectors, and every one has marveled at it.

Welcome to the board.

Rob

(edited typo)

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Just a little tribute to our new member and I hope he learns more computer skills so we can see some of his fine collection soon!!!!! 2 of your cover pins. Welcome!

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Rob,

Again, thank you sincerely. I read not too long ago that someone did some research on "life regrets". At or need the top of the list was, "I wish I had written a book". I have authored three books: a textbook in my field, the baseball book, and just last week my third book, "Boxing Pinback Buttons", arrived from the printer. I'm 60 now, and if I still have at least half my marbles and some energy left, I'd like to do two more for the hobby. One would be "Football Pinback Buttons", and the grand finale would have the incredibly stunning title, "Non-Baseball, Non-Boxing, Non-Football Sports Pinback Buttons". A sure hit for all the bowling pinback collectors out there, both of them. I have been asked, "What was it like to publish your baseball book?" My sincere answer is I think it is the closest thing a man can experience that is similar to a woman giving birth to a baby. Takes about 9 months, lots of urges to vomit along the way, unexplainable mood swings, but somehow in the end it is all worth it. I wanted to give back something to the hobby that I have enjoyed for many years. I was not a good athlete (trying to catch fly balls terrified me), so I turned to collecting pins of good athletes. It is comments like yours that make me feel my efforts matter to others. Thank you!

Paul

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Al,

At the risk of causing a ruckus on my network debut, I have noticed a subtle difference between those Mantle and Maris pins. Tell me if you agree. Look closer at the shade of red in both pins. In the pair on your message, I think the Maris pin has a deeper, smoother, and more "refined" tone than the Mantle pin. Would you agree? To compound matters, I have seen the reverse in other pairs. I wonder if there were two printings of these pins. If so, the first was of the more refined tone (like your Maris), and the second printing was like your Mantle. I can think of no other explanation for the color variation, other than the second printing may have been made off of the image of the first, as opposed to the original process of production from a printer's block. But this idea doesn't make much sense---why not just run a second batch off the original block? Back then there were no MLB licensing rights. It was simply a case of who ran off what images first, and then sold them on the sidewalk outside Yankee Stadium. My best guess is that, unless the slight color differences are just due to within batch variation, what happened was a second vendor made the second printing using a pair of pins purchased from the first vendor, thereby avoiding the need for the original printer's block. These pins are all vintage and real. They are not reproductions, fantasies, or re-issues. I have seen such subtle differences very rarely in pins. The rare times I have, they involve a famous athlete, suggesting a bigger than normal sale of the pins to warrant a second printing. I have two pins of Joe Louis, vitually identical, with the only difference being the shape of the letter "o" across the pair, one more round, the other more oval in shape. Another such example, the "Big PM10" pin of Mantle. Here the variation is a slight difference in the size of Mantle's head. Any thoughts? As I said in the book, "If only the pins could talk."

Paul

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Paul, welcome to the forum...I purchased your book a few years ago and it has been an indispensable guide for me. Just to let you know that 3 of your pinbacks you have listed I have identified as belonging to the Lincoln, NE Western League club in the early 1910s. I was lucky enough to find all three within a 4 month timespan last year.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Paul,
Yes I have noticed that there is a difference between the two pins. And you are right I have also seen the Maris a little "less white" like my mantle and the same for the mantle . You are right also as I have never seen any of these 2 pins with a union logo stamped on the back.Thus indicating a quick "run". I believe that because these 2 pins were put out so late in the race that because they are so simplistic in style maybe the paper that was used in the "second run" was of different quality. It also seems to me that the ones that have that little creamer look to them that the celluloid tends to bunch up more around the edge of the pin than the nice white ones. To think that there were 2 different runs of these pins I also find hard to believe due to the scarcity of them , I think 2 different styles would fit the situation better. As possibly 2 different vendors were used,as you pointed out. Boy if they could only talk what stories they could tell us!

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Paul,
I was reading your last thought on the Big Mantle PM10 and I think that that pin has 2 different images completely. as seen with the neck line ,has some shirt showing vs. just a straight neck. It also seems that there is a little difference in the image itself (very subtle) This variation has only come to light just recently. But in my eyes there is a good enough difference to say there are 2 variations.

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Posted By: Jantz

I don't venture over here much. Mostly I hang out in the cardboard section. I haven't been here long either, but the time I do put in has been time well spent. One can quickly learn alot here. Anyway, just wanted to welcome you to the board.


Jantz

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Posted By: Greg Theberge

Welcome to the board, Paul.

Although I only collect Red Sox items, the pins I have are some of my favorites pieces. I look forward to seeing your contributions on the board. There are some good folks here and it's a good place to hang out every now and then.

All the best,
Greg

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Dan,

Thanks for showing the pins. I don't know how you do your research, but if it weren't for the internet, I don't think I could do much. I have found a thread that leads to a thread that leads to a thread that helps me finally figure out a pin. Some are still mysteries to me. I wonder what archivists did before the invention of the computer?

Paul

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Posted By: leon

Hi Paul
Welcome to our board. If I can ever help you in any way please let me know. The memorabilia side (this side) is probably one of the most friendly places I have ever seen on the internet. IF you venture over to the pre-war side of cards on this board you will see a little infighting and bickering. We try to keep it to a minimium but with so much passion, A- type personalities, and (yikes) money there is more of a chance of spats happening over there. Thanks again for coming to this board and sharing your knowledge. BTW, I only have a few pins(baseball) but I do like them....best regards

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Paul, without your book I don't think I would have ever even known that a pin for the Lincoln team existed. As soon as I saw the pins in your book with "Antelope Park" I looked into opening days for the Lincoln club and they coincided.

http://marian.creighton.edu/~besser/baseball/antelope.html

The "Boost Lincoln" club I believe coincides with the opening of the second half of the season when the Western League was set up with two half seasons where the champion of the first half plays the champion of the second half for the league championship.

The May 10th pin is from 1910 and the April 21 pin is from 1911.

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Leon,

My knowledge of cards is zero. I'm not even sure what is meant by "pre-war" cards. WWII? But I do understand and appreciate what you mean about personalities, egos, and attitudes among card collectors. I once witnessed the following (I'm 99% sure it was at the National, maybe 5-8 years ago). A (card) dealer had laid out in his glass case a bunch of cards in holders, with a notice that "All cards in this case are priced at $10 apiece". Since the guy had no pins, I just gave his items a quick glance. A man comes in with his son, maybe 12-14 years old. The father quickly must have spotted a card that was worth considerably more than $10 (I was looking at items in a booth across the aisle from him). The dealer retrieves the card from the case, and then tells the customer (the father) there must have been some mistake, as this card did not belong in the $10 case. What followed was a yelling match centering around "It's not my fault you mis-placed your card. The sign says $10, here is $10, now give me the card." The dealer says he is under no obligation to sell his inventory below what it is worth--it was simply a mistake on his part. One yell led to another. Everyone around the table is half-awkward and half-curious as to how this would turn out. I wasn't watching directly, but the two men each threw a punch at the other, over the width of the glass case. I think somebody called security. The worst thing that ever happened to me in buying a pin was I promptly stuck myself with it, and my finger wouldn't stop bleeding. Pure "minor league" compared to you card collectors.

Best,

Paul

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Paul,
Maybe thats why some of the card guys call the pin guys
"Pricks" LOL Al

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Posted By: leon

My wife poked her head in my office as I was laughing at reading your memory of the fight over the cards. I have witnessed similar situations. And they say this is supposed to be relaxing!! My few pins...(the dime is not a pin...long story)....

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Al,

Those card guys are authorities on the topic.

Paul

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Paul,
Good thing we are on the memorabilia side! If we talk like this on the vintage forum side we would have been pressed between a PSA and SGC holder!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Paul:

Great to have you aboard! I just picked up your book a couple of months ago and am still in awe of the comprehensiveness (if that is a word).

Do you know anything about the 1897 Cleveland Team Pin that recently sold for big $$ in a Mastro Auction? I was very interested in it but the bidding got too high for me.

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Phil,

Thank you for your kind words about my book. Yes, "comprehensiveness" is a real word. If it is not, it is now. Contrary to the belief of some people, I am not the winner (or even a bidder) for every pin that is not in my book. That pin belongs to someone other than me. I do recall the pin you are describing, but not in much detail. Here is the general scoop on why these types of pins are so valuable. Probably very few have survived over the years, so scarcity is high. If the team included a famous player (at the time) or to become a famous player later in his career, the pin is extra-special. You can sort of think of it as a "rookie pin", if not of the player, then most certainly of the technology of making pinback buttons that began in 1896. However, I suspect the primary basis of the pin's value is its relative position in the history of baseball. Anything pre-1900 is special. The first World Series wasn't played until 1903. The American League had yet to be founded. The identity of professional teams (we really shouldn't call them "Major League" teams, because the MLB as we know it today wasn't founded yet)are not fully documented from that era. I don't recall what the specific attribution was of the pin (e.g., an "old" National League team, or a minor league team), but one look at the pin told you it came from the primordial days of professional baseball using a recently patented technology. I have been asked how would you "know" the value of such an item? You wouldn't. The market itself would determine its value. I get mildly amused when I hear people say a given item "isn't worth that much" or "the buyer paid too much for that item". On what basis can such statements be made, especially in an area as arcane as pins? "Too much" compared to what? Can you run down to Walmart and get one cheaper? The famous Wagner card recently sold for over $2,000,000. The most expensive Wagner pin, same player, same era, different type of collectible (a pin) probably wouldn't sell for 1% of that price. Why? I would say because of differential demand. It is primarily a case that cards are far more popular among collectors than pins. By a magnitude of 100/1? For some items, the answer is obviously "yes". There are no "inherent" values to collectibles. Sorry to quote an old cliche (are there any new cliches?): something is worth whatever someone else will pay for it. Some lucky collector now has a magnificent addition to his (or her) collection.

Paul

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Posted By: Mike Pugeda

Hi Paul,

I bought your book earlier this year and have spent hours going through it. I use it for reference often. Here are some Clementes in your honor.

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Posted By: Mike Pugeda

...and some more

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Posted By: paul muchinsky

Mike,

You have great taste in Clemente pins--two of them no less. Nice condition on your bubble tabs. They often have scratches or one tab broken off. The player tabs are more scarce than the team tabs. Hake and Steckler describe these pins as having been made in 6 colors (if I remember correctly). I have wondered if that means each pin comes in all 6 colors, or different pins come in different colors. Forgetting the player pins, there are 8 AL teams, 8 NL teams, and 8 AA teams. If the former, you would need 24 x 6 = 144 pins just to complete the team part of the set. That would be one tough set to complete.

Paul

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Posted By: Mike Pugeda

Paul,

Thanks for the compliments. I purchased the 2nd Clemente earlier this year. The first I picked up approx. 4-5 yrs. ago. How rare do you think this button is? I have only seen 5-6 offered in the last 10 years or so.

Speaking of rare, your Alpen Brau 1916 Red Sox pinback just might be the most incredible button I've laid eyes on. Do you know of any others in existence?

Good luck with future pinback books.

Mike Pugeda

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Mike,

The Clemente pin is rare. It is a single-day event pin, and it wasn't even held in Pittsburgh. One can only image how many got tossed away after the game. I'm not real current on the prices of the player bubble tabs. Because they are easily scratched as lithographs, their price is more condition-sensitive than a more durable celluloid pin. Perhaps different players bring more money than others (I don't know), but when I have seen them auctioned, they go around $75 - $100.

I am not aware of another Red Sox pin. However, as I said in my book, a unique pin (only one made) is a prototype, issued by the pinmaker, to show to the customer as a sample of what the final product would look like. Very few prototypes were ever saved by the pinmaker. So the best bet is that Red Sox pin is not a prototype. Given its large diameter, it is unlikely it could be easily lost or misplaced. Thus I would imagine there are others "out there"--perhaps in an old trunk in someone's attic. I once saw an episode of the Antiques Roadshow where someone brought in rarely or never before seen movie posters from the 1930s. They were virtually mint, probably over 100 different ones. Where did they come from? A young couple bought a fixer-upper home. Long ago it was next door to a theatre. The theatre was long gone. Upon ripping out old walls, they discovered these posters between the studs of the house. The manager of the movie theatre used to live in the house, and the posters were used as insulation. It was a common practice of the day for a theatre manager to forward all the posters of the film along with the film to the next movie house to show the film. Apparently the manager saved one copy of each poster to help insulate his house. When the movie completed its run of theatres, the company that made the movie destroyed the posters. They were now functionally useless, promoting a film that was no longer shown--sort of "yesterday's news". I have to believe that somewhere there is a stash of "put-away" pins that someone forgot about. By the way, the pins need not be all sports related, but also advertising. This Red Sox pin is a "cross-over"---using athletes to advertise a product. Finding such a stash is every pin collectors dream.

I got one of my rarest pins from a "dumpster diver". These guys sniff out old houses that are being gutted. The company places a dumpster beneath a 2nd or 3rd story window, and fills the dumpster. The dumpster-diver roots through the dumpster after the crew goes home for the night. This dumpster diver was a bottle collector---could care less about sports. He climbs into the dumpster at dusk, and sees a pin with an attached RWB ribbon. It is embedded in the coil springs of an old rusty mattress. As he places his hand into the spring to fetch the pin, his hand causes the spring to widen, and the pin keeps falling farther through the spring, heading beyond recovery toward the bottom of the dumpster. Just before giving up, he makes one last surge, and succeeds in barely griping the ribbon between the tips of his fingers, and gently pulls out the entire pin. Nearly in mint condition, I have no idea how it survived the fall down 2 or 3 stories. In short, the pins are out there. Baseball has been our national sport for over 100 years. Pins are far more durable than paper items. I believe some rare gems are waiting to be found from original souvenirs saved long ago.

Paul

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Posted By: dan bartenbaker

hi paul glad you found this forum,so what pin was it you got from dumster.
also my pin find was in a house where the man's father saved 330 p2 sweet caporal pins and 30 cracker jack,loaded with hofers and large letters.
i ended up keeping several for my collection and selling and trading the rest for a nice profit,so it pays to ask about contents of homes when given the chance. dan

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Posted By: Mike H

Paul, It is a great pleasure to have you on this board. Your book was insturmental in the development of my strong interest in pinbacks. Is there any chance you will write another? Believe me when I say we would all love to see volume II...ha ha. It would be a real treat to see a book that featured the top 5-10 collections in the hobby along with great stories of finds, collecting, and commentary. Of course a lot of nice photos would be essential.

Speaking of finds, the dumpster story and others like it really keep me going. I agree with you that there are a ton of rare pins in drawers and trunks across the country. I live in Ann Arbor, and when we drive to Detroit and see neighborhood after neighborhood of 80-100 old grand homes I always wonder what is hidden in the nooks and crannies. Think about it a second. How many people (not into baseball memorabilia or antiques) would have a clue about the value of old baseball pinbacks? There's gold in them there old houses.

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Posted By: dan

hay mike h. ther is alot of stuff in those old detroit houses,i know as i too live in southeast michigan,but the problem is going into the hood to get access to them. although i do know one person who has been able to do that i myself tend to stay in the burbs and buy from him. my pin find was in northern oakland county michigan. will have to hook up as i will be starting a national sports pinback button show in upcoming months. well i hope paul tells us what rare pin came out of that dumster,until then. dan

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Posted By: Mike H

Hi Dan,

I know a few pickers who find a fair amount of material in Detroit. It is spread quite a bit across the state however. A lot of baseball history and fans in MI. We should get together some time.

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Posted By: Clint

Paul, I'd like to also welcome you aboard and look forward to hearing about your knowledge on pin backs.
Clint

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your kind words about my book. I fully share your opinion that "they" are out there somewhere. For you, it is Detroit. For me, it was NYC. In addition to being the home of three MLB teams, these teams were often in the WS. The NY area was also the home to many metal works companies that made pins. Whitehead and Hoag was located in nearby Newark, NJ. The 3 teams drew fans from what is known as "the tri-state area" (NY, NJ, CT). I grew up in southern CT. Back in the day, ballplayers lived among "the common people". Perhaps you read the wonderful book, "The Boys of Summer". Although the book was limited to the Dodgers, it describes how the players were part of the local community in their personal lives. The author (Roger Kahn, I believe) talked about how Carl Furillo was regarded as somewhat of a "social outsider" because he lived in a different borough (Queens). Can you imagine how many bats, balls, (worn out)gloves, autographs, cards, pins, etc. these players gave to their neighbors just because they themselves were "good neighbors"? All of these itmes can't possibly have made their way into the market. I have to believe that tucked away in some attic are some surviving souvenirs of the three teams of that era. My fantasy is to somehow find where an old pin vendor lived. In some back closet is a box of all the pins he never sold on the sidewalk outside the stadium (in NY, some team was always playing a home game). The box probably (in my dream) contains pins of players that were traded away soon after the pins were made, and thus were never popular with the fans (Bob Cerv would be an example, the roommate of M&M in 1961). If all this sounds like fanciful nonsense, it isn't. It actually happened to me (sort of, and indirectly). The city was not NY, but Philadelphia. It wasn't me who found the old stash of pins from a former vendor, but someone else, who in turn sold them to a dealer. By the dumbest of luck I find the dealer at an outdoor antique show that I NEVER previously attended. I just happened to be in the neighborhood on business. He had these incredible PM10 pins of Phillies players. They weren't even "out" for display, but were in a paper bag. He knew they were special, knew what they were worth, and I paid full retail for them. But I got them. They are the most of the "large" PM10 Phillies pins in my book. He had more than one of all or most of them, so other collectors got to share in them as well.

Life is also filled with missed opportunities, of all kinds. I grew up playing in the same Little League as Jackie Robinson, Jr. We were on different teams, but same league. Jackie Sr. would sit in the stands and watch the games. This would have been right after he retired, late 1950s. My parents told me who he was, but as a 12-year old boy I didn't really understand his role in society and in the history of baseball. I see where a cancelled signed check by Robinson now sells for about $2,000. I think if I had asked him for them, I could have gotten all he had. They were just useless pieces of paper with his signature on it. A few years later I had a summer job where I made home deliveries by truck. One of my customers was Mel Allen. He would soon be fired by the Yankees as their long-time voice. He was always very nice, and I'm sure would have provided me with all manner of small mementoes if I had asked for them. A few years back some auction house sold off a bunch of stuff from "The Mel Allen Estate". I was thinking when I saw the lot, "Hell, I could have had half this lot 40 years ago if I had just asked him for it".

As to BPB-II, I am getting asked this question with increasing frequency. First, as part of this network I am willing and flattered to share stories about pins and any other matters about the hobby. As far as a "super book" of the top 5 collections in the hobby, I doubt if that would be logistically possible. You would have a tough time coordinating the combined effort, and if the end product is a single volume, I would guess you would be in the neighborhood of a 800 - 1,000 page book. If you want "selectivity" over "comprehensiveness", someone will have to play the role or arbiter in determining what is most desired. Finally, don't bet the mortgage everyone would be willing to participate. As for me, there is a 10% chance there will be a Volume II. It is a vast amount of work, and there is always a "drop dead date" in publishing a book--the final date when the file is closed, and you go to press with what you have. If two weeks later you pick up a crown jewel, it is too late. That pin (and subsequent additions) now become the fodder for Volume III. It never ends. If I "update" my baseball book, most likely it would be electronically. The quality of the photographic images would be superior, and there is no drop dead date. As they come in, they could go straight online to be downloaded and placed in a looseleaf notebook, highly revisable. The images would be free. However, I tend to be an old-fashioned "book guy", not a new-age electronic guy. I can barely send email. While it makes the most sense to go the electronic route, it is simply a medium I'm not very comfortable with. In any event, most likely my next book will be "Football Pinback Buttons", and while baseball is still my first love, I don't see the "update" happening in the immediate future. I sure hope there are no word limits on these posts.

Paul

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Paul, there was a thread here not long ago that discussed a pinback website and the real need for one.

PS. Bob Cerv used to be my neighbor

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Paul,
Check your email. Al

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Posted By: Tim Lowrie

Hi Paul.
First of all I have admired your book and have often used this as a valuable resource. A good friend of mine, Al Simeone suggested that I increase my knowledge by joining. I look forward to watching and joining in conversations regarding baseball pins and particular PM 10 pins.
Tim

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Posted By: Paul Muchinsky

Hi Tim,

Looking forward to talking with you too. I never met Al. I'm sure Al is a nice guy and all, but it turns out he grew up in a weird place, and probably shouldn't be taken too seriously. That place is the same town I grew up in, but there the similarity ends. He even now lives near my favorite restaurant when I was growing up there, about 200 years ago. Not that I am jealous or nothin'.

Paul

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Paul,
I was there last night and it was fantastic!! Joe says hello! By the way I didnt tell him your fathers secret past!!! LOL