T206 antecedents.Photography and Lithography behind the T206s.

[ethicsprof]

I love and have spent years with the T206s but have realized I know very little about the photographs behind these beauties. The last Legendary Auction caught me by surprise when I realized that out of scores of Conlon
photos, I found 2 that were the bases for T206s: Tannehill (lot 206), Killian
(lot 154). I won the Tannehill.
On another thread, I saw Steve Murray's helpful list of Conlon photos adorning
M114 Sporting New Supplements.
Does anyone know of other Conlon photos behind T206s? I know that Horner
is the king of T206 portraits. Conlon and T206s seems relatively unstudied to me, but i'd love to be wrong and see the research. I'd also love to see any research on lithographers who took the Conlons and 'made' our T206s.
Any ideas or is this uncharted territory?
thanks
best,
barry

[E93]

Barry,
If you were unaware of Scott Forrest's site, this might be of interest.
JimB

http://runscott.homestead.com/T206Origins.html

[ethicsprof]

many thanks for the site.
i do see a Conlon 'Bob Rhoads' identified.
i'm still in shock that this area of photography and lithography escaped me during all these years looking at the T206s.
For some reason, i thought Horner and left it that.
Looks like i'm not alone in this, given the 'responses' to the issue re:Conlon
and T206s.

Uncharted territory is always great fun to travel.
Reminds me of the ole dissertation days---remember that time from long ago, Jim.
thanks again,
best,
barry

[marcdelpercio]

Very interesting thread, Barry. I have also been interested in the origins of the photos in this set and the lithography process. Here is a card from my collection. Note the typed or stamped marking on top, "Van Oeyen Photo, 1907". I'm assuming that this refers to Louis Van Oeyen, who was the official photographer for the American League for a few years during that period and worked mainly out of the Cleveland area.

If the photo is correctly dated as 1907, it would seem that there was sometimes a span of a few years between the photo and card production as this is a 350 Series card. Hoffman actually played for New York in 1907 so the caption on the card may be inaccurate or perhaps they just changed the artwork to reflect the St. Louis uniform. At any rate, this is at least an interesting lead towards another photographer who may be responsible for many T206 images.

[ethicsprof]

very helpful insights. Many,many thanks.
This is the first T206 card where i've seen the photographer actually identified.
It may well be, Marc, that the action poses were done by Conlon, Van Oeyen,perhaps others while the portraits are basically a Horner domain.
The latter is certainly what many of us have thought for aeons.
I'd like to see more examples of the photographer w/ action poses--T206 connection but
think it may well be,as i've said, uncharted.

The movement from photographer to lithographer appears to be largely unknown except for the familiar printing process/order of
colors in the process which says more about lithography than lithographer.
Granted I would like to know more about the lithography,too, but am voraciously eager to learn about the artists/ lithographers. I recognize that some may see my use of the word 'artists' as a bit of a stretch but i must say that I
see the move from photograph to the beauty of the T206s themselves as artistry. Certainly, the photography is unequivocally artistry.

any other ideas about T206--Conlon, T206--Van Oeyen connection?
and lithographers?
I understand that this may well be uncharted but want to check it out
with those who may have scholarly expertise in this arena on this fine board.
best,
barry

[Leon]

I think it's well known that Horner did some, or most, of the portraits in T206. Just thought I would add that as I like his photography. Good luck in the quest, Barry.

[ethicsprof]

many thanks for the support, ole buddy. I've been getting more emails than
posts on the thread so input is arriving in all sorts of ways.
You're right about Horner; his portraits are phenomenal.

happy new year!

best,
barry

[Brian-Chidester]

Barry,

Nice work on the Conlon front. Have you gotten any emails about the lithography style? I'd like to know what process was used for painting the photographs. Knowing only the basics about lithography myself, I've read that it as a six-color litho process, but I also wonder about the gloss and drying process of the ink. In some T206 cards, it almost seems like the ink is under another thin layer of clear paper, because you can see the cross-lines in the eyes of the players, if you look through a magnifying glass. American Litho did one hell of a job.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Brian-Chidester

Barry,

Nice work on the Conlon front. Have you gotten any emails about the lithography style? I'd like to know what process was used for painting the photographs. Knowing only the basics about lithography myself, I've read that it as a six-color litho process, but I also wonder about the gloss and drying process of the ink. In some T206 cards, it almost seems like the ink is under another thin layer of clear paper, because you can see the cross-lines in the eyes of the players, if you look through a magnifying glass. American Litho did one hell of a job.

I believe Ted Z has commented on this or a similar phenomena in one of the T206 Printing theory threads from the old board.

[ethicsprof]

Brian,
thanks for the interest.
Dave is correct that Ted Z has elucidated the litho process to some degree in other threads. Jamie Hull has been very helpful in this domain and can help
with bibliographic tools and even tutorial.

I have actually been spending my time on the detective work of seeking the
Conlon Type 1s which have served as the bases for T206s and find the task very slow and even more fascinating---as it is truly uncharted territory. For some reason, the photography experts and T206 experts have been fast asleep in this area---understandably so, since most everyone,including myself until recently, has had the
Hornerean preoccupation when it comes to photography and T206s.
When it comes to poses, Conlon is key,I believe. If you know of sources or
individuals who have expertise on Conlon and T206s, please let me know.

all the best,
barry

[drdduet]

Great post Barry. Yet another facet of the Monster to decode.

Maybe with enough input a t206 image reference can be created. A reference that would list all the t206 images with the photographer and original image would be fascinating. Subsets by photographer could then be pursued. This kinda stuff never gets old.

[ethicsprof]

Thanks, Darren. Like most treks into uncharted territories, it will take a long time but has the exploratory adrenaline of a first find in an old archaeological dig. And the Conlon artifact has captured me.
I must say that the framed Type 1 Conlon pictured alongside the T206 (no L.) Tannehill which my wife gave me for Christmas is now my most prized display at the office.
best,
barry

[Brian-Chidester]

With the plethora of auction catalogues offering cabinets throughout the years, it's likely that more than a few would have been offered from the Conlon lens.

To the issue of the lithography process, I've read some of Ted Z.'s old archived threads. I'm still curious about many things that might not be unique to just T206s, but maybe to the era at large. Silkscreening, color-processes and drying techniques were so incredibly durable in those days. Even thinner paper stock, such as the T213-1 cards, still hold their color ink with incredible durability.

I'd love to see a portrait today manipulated and printed with the same old equipment and technique. I think that would be a fascinating process to witness.

[ethicsprof]

Brian,
Thanks very much for the interest and information.
If you do know of catalogues that have the Conlon photos which are the bases for T206s, please let me know.
I have looked at the catalogues over the years and it was the last Legendary Auction that caught my eye with such an amazing offering of Type 1s. There was no mention of the various photos relating to the T206 cards themselves.
I must admit that I was not looking for anything in particular then noticed out of the corner of my eye that the Conlon looked remarkably like the T206 Tannehill (No L). I then examined it carefully and it was a match. Then i spent days looking at the Conlon's and found one more--the Killian. Quite exciting, I must say. Now this is 2 finds out of scores of photos in that catalogue.
Your ideas about lithography beyond the T206s yet T206 era are very interesting. Viewing the process via printing with the same equipment and technique would be quite fascinating and illuminating. Perhaps Jamie Hull will chime in and give us his reflections re:these arenas as he is our encyclopedia in this domain.
all the best,
Barry

[Brian-Chidester]

Hi Barry,

Thanks for the great response. Good luck with your quest and keep us posted.

I have only bid through the auction houses once, and actually, it was for a Horner photograph, but I didn't win. I have a few other catalogues and will look through them to see if I find anything. Martin Neal, who is a Net54 member and a collector who lives nearby, has a bunch of old catalogues, so maybe I'll hit him up and look through them. I, like yourself, am fascinated with the photographers and the process that ATC and ALC went through to produce what later became known as the T206 series.

[ethicsprof]

Brian,
your help and Martin's are most appreciated.
i will certainly keep you posted and please do the same.
these uncharted meanderings are most enticing.

all the best
barry

[Brian-Chidester]

T206 is such an interesting story, not just when the cards were made, but its progress through the years. Shakespeare couldn't haven't written a more strange and compelling drama.

I still remember the first card show my dad took me to in 1985, and gave me $20 to buy cards. All the heroes, like Strawberry and Clemens and Puckett were featured on colourful, pristine new cards. I can't recapture what it was that drew me to this one man's table that had a booklet of beat up tobacco cards in plastic pages< But I bought a T206 Hoblitzel for a few bucks nonetheless, and went to find my dad to show him what I had bought. He knew it was old, and even at 8 years old, I knew it was interesting, but neither of us knew exactly what is was just yet. A "dangerous" cigarette ad on the back... look at that uniform!... why are they so small... who is Hoblitzel anyway? It was the beginning of a fascinating journey, which never ends...

But that's another story, and we all have them.

[Bridwell]

Yes, many of the T206 photos were taken long before 1909. Some were used on W600 cabinets which date to 1905-1908. Others were used in Sporting Life team composites from 1905-06. You've probably noticed that some of the portrait poses in T206 show some very young-looking players, such as Cobb or Hal Chase. I remember reading that Chase was a pretty boy in his early years, as shown on the portraits. In 1909 he had a bad case of small pox and nearly died. When he returned, he was presented with a Trophy Cup by some fans. However, his face was scarred up by the illness. So in his Trophy pose in T206 he looks a lot worse than in the 2 portrait poses.

[ethicsprof]

Ron,
very interesting.
i've often put the pink,blue,white cap, dark cap,trophy alongside each other just to compare the handsome youth with the 'weathered' Chase of trophy.

Do you happen to know of any of the Conlon action poses that 'begat' the
T206s?
thanks for the interest and help.
best,
barry

[Brian-Chidester]

Some T206 poses, like the Eddie Plank, were used even earlier than the W600. Plank's pose was used in the E107 Breisch Williams series.

[Ericc22]

Greetings,

I found this thread in the archives and loved it. Figured it was worth reviving. I was fascinated by this :

http://runscott.homestead.com/T206Origins.html

Interesting to see where those drawings come from. I've always been curious at how realistic the images on the cards are. I want a Johnson eg, and can't see getting the 'hands on chest' because that person looks so generic. I am glad to see at least there is a reasonable match to the image in the portrait, and the real person!

Thanks for all this info. Hope more images can be added!

Eric

[Jantz]

I may be able to add a little more to this thread.

Van Oeyen took the photo of Sam Crawford for his T206 (throwing) card. The photo appears in the book "A Portrait of Baseball Photography". I compared the photo with his card and its a spot-on match. Wish I could provide you with a scan of the photo, but I would have to break the binding of the book to do so.

The photo was part of a lot sold by MastroNet Auctions in 2004.


Hope this helps


Jantz

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Ericc22

Greetings,

I found this thread in the archives and loved it. Figured it was worth reviving. I was fascinated by this :

http://runscott.homestead.com/T206Origins.html

Interesting to see where those drawings come from. I've always been curious at how realistic the images on the cards are. I want a Johnson eg, and can't see getting the 'hands on chest' because that person looks so generic. I am glad to see at least there is a reasonable match to the image in the portrait, and the real person!

Thanks for all this info. Hope more images can be added!

Eric

Hi Eric, Thanks for your comments. I was not participating in the hobby when this thread was active, so I missed it - very interesting stuff. Makes me think I should add the photographer and date to that page (when known). In addition, Mike recently sent me a great Sheckard photo to use on the site, which helped get me fired up at adding some more cards and photos.

If anyone has photos to supply, please send to me. Thanks.

[Jantz]

Thought I would throw this out there too.

Horner photo (c. 1903)

Jantz

[atx840]

Arther "Solly" Hofman batting, and Jack Pfiester, a pitcher playing catcher, Chicago NL



Frank Chance, Chicago NL baseball player, standing at home plate, with bat in hand about to swing, the catcher, Pat Moran, Chicago NL, stands to the left ready to receive the pitched ball

[rp12367]

Originally Posted by marcdelpercio

Very interesting thread, Barry. I have also been interested in the origins of the photos in this set and the lithography process. Here is a card from my collection. Note the typed or stamped marking on top, "Van Oeyen Photo, 1907". I'm assuming that this refers to Louis Van Oeyen, who was the official photographer for the American League for a few years during that period and worked mainly out of the Cleveland area.

If the photo is correctly dated as 1907, it would seem that there was sometimes a span of a few years between the photo and card production as this is a 350 Series card. Hoffman actually played for New York in 1907 so the caption on the card may be inaccurate or perhaps they just changed the artwork to reflect the St. Louis uniform. At any rate, this is at least an interesting lead towards another photographer who may be responsible for many T206 images.

I have this card similar to Marc's, front has typed stating Weasbar? (Buf) Photo 1906 (6 in pencil rest typed). Back has in light pencil W Gasnor (Buff) photo. Not quite sure what these notes mean, any insite would be appreciated.