PWCC Certified High End

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Bowman-...item20fccabb63

[jhs5120]

I am a fan of provenance (but thinks the advertisement aspect makes these a little gimmicky), so I'm indifferent towards these. I think it's great that there is a more detailed database for relatively expensive cards.

[swarmee]

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=944417

Discussed on the PSA/Collector's Universe forums, Brent from PWCC came on to answer questions about it. He was also a little dismayed that the certificate had "caliber" spelled "calibur".

[wonkaticket]

Dumb

Sorry, "Certified" Dumb

[Exhibitman]

Great, now if I win a card from them that they decide is high end I have to clean the GDMF sticker crud off the slab. Thanks for handing me a cleaning project in addition to a card, jackass.

[nolemmings]

Sweet! "Buy the holder, not the card, and look for the sticker".

[Jantz]

Don't say it! Don't say it!!

[calvindog]

"We insist on auction integrity ...." yet their auctions are rife with fraud, their scans hilariously doctored and misleading -- and now the snake oil salesman is telling you to trust his eyes and not yours.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In fairness, I think they have toned down the scans to the point where they look pretty natural to me anyhow.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In fairness, I think they have toned down the scans to the point where they look pretty natural to me anyhow.

After they got caught. And then lied after getting caught.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, one of those smoking gun cross-exam moments.

[mybuddyinc]

Personally, I like the idea, and am going to start my own certification ----


zzzzzzz.jpg

[GregMitch34]

And Mantle card they "certify" as above average for grade actually has bad stains on back... I guess they only certify the fronts.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

And Mantle card they "certify" as above average for grade actually has bad stains on back... I guess they only certify the fronts.

I don't think they are certifying that the card is "above average for the grade" I think they are just declaring the card to be "high end".

[GregMitch34]

Read their certificate -- it says it's superior "relative to its technical grade."

[swarmee]

They are saying that the "eye appeal" of the card exceeds the technical grade. Generally those cards sell for higher amounts than their regular counterparts. They are making no promises to future bumps of cards.

[vintagehofrookies]

Originally Posted by calvindog

"We insist on auction integrity ...." yet their auctions are rife with fraud, their scans hilariously doctored and misleading -- and now the snake oil salesman is telling you to trust his eyes and not yours.

this is why their auctions go for a huge premium and also why I stay away from them

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by mybuddyinc

Personally, I like the idea, and am going to start my own certification ----


Attachment 192555

I'll take the certified Thomas.

Which end is certified?

[Canofcorn]

I have no problem with this. I can't afford to win a PWCC auction anyway.
Seriously though, Brent is such a stand up guy. Very impressed with everything about PWCC. They Are Just trying to do something different from the competition in this case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Seriously though, Brent is such a stand up guy."

Oh I agree, see posts 76 and 78. Or the whole thread if you wish.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=177348

[calvindog]

Bill Mastro was a stand up guy too according to the oracles of Net 54.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Great, now if I win a card from them that they decide is high end I have to clean the GDMF sticker crud off the slab. Thanks for handing me a cleaning project in addition to a card, jackass.

Adam, I pretty much agree with You...

I Also have a couple of questions/thoughts... I MiGHT even be way off base with the 1st one, However I've seen some glues atmospherically destroy cardboard... Are theses New Owners somewhat "Test Subjects"?

1) The glue that is used for these labels usually have fairly strong chemicals in them.
The presents of a high toxin in the vicinity of cardboard could lead to damage. The Plastic MiGHT be the 1st to go!
With that said, Does anyone think that PSA will eventually Void their warranty of the card that is holdered with this PWCC sticker placed on it?
Maybe PWCC conversed with PSA about this already... oR Not.

2nd) Will PWCC eventually Place their Label on a Card like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Bowman-...c75&rmvSB=true

Last thought... it will be interesting to see what this PSA 4 Mantle Card (w/ the PWCC sticker) Sells for. A PSA 5 w/o the PWCCsticker just Sold for $6,100! It was the Mantle from the Thread, "Bryant vs Mantle"... Will See Aye!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1951-Bowman-...557&rmvSB=true

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

I have no problem with this. I can't afford to win a PWCC auction anyway.
Seriously though, Brent is such a stand up guy. Very impressed with everything about PWCC. They Are Just trying to do something different from the competition in this case.

Not all of Brent's auctions go high. I recently had a $200 card sell for $50. It is starting to make me think I can do just as good selling on Ebay myself if I am going to get those kind of results on my consignments.

[Orioles1954]

My one word response is "why?"

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Bill Mastro was a stand up guy too according to the oracles of Net 54.

LMAO, classic!!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Not all of Brent's auctions go high. I recently had a $200 card sell for $50. It is starting to make me think I can do just as good selling on Ebay myself if I am going to get those kind of results on my consignments.

funny lots of buyers say tons of shilling and his auctions sell for record amounts and sellers say sell to low....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Canofcorn

I have no problem with this. I can't afford to win a PWCC auction anyway.
Seriously though, Brent is such a stand up guy. Very impressed with everything about PWCC. They Are Just trying to do something different from the competition in this case.

Bobby said:
Not all of Brent's auctions go high. I recently had a $200 card sell for $50. It is starting to make me think I can do just as good selling on Ebay myself if I am going to get those kind of results on my consignments.

What you mean you cant afford to win PWCC auctions.. $200 cards going for $50 all the time seem very affordable!..

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Bobby said:
Not all of Brent's auctions go high. I recently had a $200 card sell for $50. It is starting to make me think I can do just as good selling on Ebay myself if I am going to get those kind of results on my consignments.

What you mean you cant afford to win PWCC auctions.. $200 cards going for $50 all the time seem very affordable!..

Exactly...while some of Brent's cards do set records, I believe he is also experiencing some sort of backlash. People, like yourself, who assume all their cards are being shilled, and just assume everything is going to go to some stratospheric level compared to similar cards in similar grades, that they just refuse to bid with him.

As far as the new certificate label he is applying to some cards, I understand why he is doing it, but I think it is a bad idea. You put yourself in a position of second guessing the grader. There is nothing wrong with promoting a card. Robert Edwards does it all the time (ie, The card has been graded authentic, however, we don't see where it is trimmed). However, they don't include a little certificate saying the card is wrongly graded. Let's get back to the old fashioned basics of letting the scans speak for themselves. Have genuine scans, and let the bidders be able to enlarge the scans. That is it. Period. He has a good model going. Why mess with it??

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Not all of Brent's auctions go high. I recently had a $200 card sell for $50. It is starting to make me think I can do just as good selling on Ebay myself if I am going to get those kind of results on my consignments.

I guess you didn't get the memo, you are supposed to shill your own auctions.

[bobbyw8469]

We don't do that. We believe in the auction system. However, we have seen alot of cards fall through the cracks. If we lose quite a bit on a card/consignment, we just try to make it up on the buy. Circle of life.

Originally Posted by rats60

I guess you didn't get the memo, you are supposed to shill your own auctions.

[calvindog]

Why is PWCC putting in that certificate?

The answer is the same as the answers to these questions:

Why did PWCC provide misleading scans?

Why is shill bidding rampant in their auctions?

To make money!

[MetsBaseball1973]

This little certificate of theirs is benign, just a way a business is trying to make some of its offerings stand out. In stark contrast the other two things mentioned by CalvinD above, namely juiced scans and shills, are inherently bad.

I have read the PSA boards and find it hysterical how grown men are in an uproar over an eBay baseball card seller adding a piece of paper to some cards he feels look better than the assigned grade---- it's all just opinions. Some guy over there was like, "So my cards without the new PWCC sticker are ugly now?!" Boo hoo!

Personally, I can use my own two God-given eyes just fine to tell me what card is better looking than another. I'll never get why some need a grade or sticker from ANYONE, be it a TPG or PWCC, to tell them what's best. I didn't care for the grade whore attitude when I was a kid in school. I certainly don't like it in card collecting as an adult. But as always, to each his own.

That said, it's Brent's choice to flag by whatever means he wants cards that look way better than the grade. I see no harm in such cards getting their just due and moment in the spotlight, as they are better than some higher graded cards despite having been given a lower technical grade.

[bobbyw8469]

Mets Baseball...I understand your argument. I think the point being made is that ALMOST ALL card collectors can tell what cards look best for their assigned grade. What makes Brent's eyes better than your own?? If you send him a consignment that YOU consider to be high end, and Brent doesn't see it that way, therefore you don't receive the "certificate", how would that make you feel as a consignor? Would you send him more consignments, or cut him off completely? Especially when we see in the future those little extra slips of paper add alot of money to the value of the card? I know that is assuming that is what happens....me personally, I think it will. We can all follow these auctions as they end and determine what type of added multiple these winning "golden tickets" add to the value of the card.

[MetsBaseball1973]

Like many here I personally don't need his sticker, but see zero harm in it. I also don't think it will materially impact the cards that receive it, as the mass of collectors know a card with extra eye appeal, and we have seen such cards command premiums far above the historical average price for their grades before Brent's new sticker.

If I send PWCC a consignment and Brent doesn't deem any of my cards worthy of that little sticker, that is just fine by me. If I thought one of my cards deserved the little sticker and he didn't, again, that's his choice, and I won't and can't impose my will on him.

Just because he's giving his opinion doesn't mean his eyes are better than mine. The same can be said of the grading companies. I don't think their eyes are better than mine, either. Just because someone is giving their opinion, doesn't mean their eyes are better, or anyone receiving the opinion thinks the opinion-giver's eyes are better. That's an assumption being made by some that's logically the problem; let Brent or anyone else give their opinion. Some will hear it/see it and agree, some won't. That's the world.

I am also willing to bet that 9 of 10 times or more the cards that receive this little sticker thing will deserve it. Brent sees enough cards to know when one has eye appeal beyond its grade. And such cards deserve a premium over the VCP average for their grade. Brent acknowledging what anyone's eyes can see with a little sticker seems like a total non-issue, to me at least.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by MetsBaseball1973

Like many here I personally don't need his sticker, but see zero harm in it. I also don't think it will materially impact the cards that receive it, as the mass of collectors know a card with extra eye appeal, and we have seen such cards command premiums far above the historical average price for their grades before Brent's new sticker.

If I send PWCC a consignment and Brent doesn't deem any of my cards worthy of that little sticker, that is just fine by me. If I thought one of my cards deserved the little sticker and he didn't, again, that's his choice, and I won't and can't impose my will on him.

Just because he's giving his opinion doesn't mean his eyes are better than mine. The same can be said of the grading companies. I don't think their eyes are better than mine, either. Just because someone is giving their opinion, doesn't mean their eyes are better, or anyone receiving the opinion thinks the opinion-giver's eyes are better. That's an assumption being made by some that's logically the problem; let Brent or anyone else give their opinion. Some will hear it/see it and agree, some won't. That's the world.

I am also willing to bet that 9 of 10 times or more the cards that receive this little sticker thing will deserve it. Brent sees enough cards to know when one has eye appeal beyond its grade. And such cards deserve a premium over the VCP average for their grade. Brent acknowledging what anyone's eyes can see with a little sticker seems like a total non-issue, to me at least.

I'm with you on this. Don't need the sticker, but don't care either way.

I love cards like the ones that hypothetically would receive this sticker: 4s that look like 6s, etc. I use my own eyes to decide which ones those are, but someone else saying which ones he thinks are special is his choice and right. For example, I agree with his Goudey Ruth but don't agree with his 51B Mick that received the sticker. It's all just opinions. Who cares if they are in the form of a flip, a sticker, or an auction description? The card is the thing and it's always right there for us to look at, just ignore all the opinions and noise and look at the card is what I do.

[jcc6252]

I'm quite sure Yogi would say "PWCC's auctions are so high, no one bids on them anymore."

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a competitive market to get consignments, so I am sure Brent is just looking for an edge. I personally think it's meaningless, but I don't see any deception in it. I have seen on some of Probstein's higher ticket items slogans such as "looks better than the grade" so it's just more marketing.

[Econteachert205]

To me it's just a glorified business card

[bosoxphan]

Should just be a this card has nice centering certificate

[jcc6252]

I find it somewhat pompous and offensive. So now this Seal and Certificate has to follow this card around after PWCC's stickering, or it will lose it's perceived lofty status? And for what? Because PWCC has determined, without full explanation, that it is a "High End" card? Let the buyer decide that. Also, what if you consign an identical card with PWCC, and you don't get the designation? I think you just might lose some bids to the "High End" card. It could easily slant the auction results.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by jcc6252

I find it somewhat pompous and offensive. So now this Seal and Certificate has to follow this card around after PWCC's stickering, or it will lose it's perceived lofty status? And for what? Because PWCC has determined, without full explanation, that it is a "High End" card? Let the buyer decide that. Also, what if you consign an identical card with PWCC, and you don't get the designation? I think you just might lose some bids to the "High End" card. It could easily slant the auction results.

I don't think a card is going to have a "lofty status" just because of this PWCC sticker, and if the card is indeed high end, it will never lose that deserved status if this little opinion sticker doesn't follow it around. The card never changes if it's truly high end.

The fact is that a great looking card has its status because of itself, not a sticker-- be it from PSA or PWCC. If Card X is indeed high end and does have this sticker, and the owner throws the sticker out-- the card is still awesome and will always command its due premium.

PSA doesn't give an explanation for their stickers either, it's worth noting.

Even if the cards in question did not have this sticker, if the mass of collectors agree the card is high end, such a card will get more bids than lesser-looking examples of the same card in the same auction.

[nolemmings]

To me it's just a glorified business card

+1

Great, now if I win a card from them that they decide is high end I have to clean the GDMF sticker crud off the slab.

Ditto. At a minimum, it's annoying.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Ditto. At a minimum, it's annoying.

Actually, in the CU/PSA thread on this topic, Brent has said that a buyer only has to ask them to remove the sticker before mailing, if that is the request. They will remove it for free before sending it to you. So you don't have to worry about cleaning it off unless you buy it from a middle-man.

[nolemmings]

Actually, in the CU/PSA thread on this topic, Brent has said that a buyer only has to ask them to remove the sticker before mailing, if that is the request. They will remove it for free before sending it to you. So you don't have to worry about cleaning it off unless you buy it from a middle-man.

Fair enough, provided it leaves no residue. Might be nice to include that within their auction description too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

All stickers will leave residue, no? Unless Teflon now makes one.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

All stickers will leave residue, no? Unless Teflon now makes one.

He claims it will come off with Goo Gone. So, maybe a trace, but nothing to really worry about.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

All stickers will leave residue, no? Unless Teflon now makes one.

Residue can almost always be removed, in my experiences.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The better approach might be to offer to affix the sticker if the lucky winner wanted it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The better approach might be to offer to affix the sticker if the lucky winner wanted it.

Absolutely.

[swarmee]

Actually, I think that many will opt to have the sticker left off, so if PWCC gets many "remove my sticker" emails, they might just do away with them all together and leave the business card as the High End cert.