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  #101  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:21 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Aaron

Hey, Troy:

In your post re: SCDA's ethical standards you wrote:

"2. When an authenticator consigns an item to auction, on the back of each letter there is a check box. If an authenticator has any financial interest in that item, the box is checked. This discloses the fact that the authenticator owns the item. The bidder then has the option of 1. accepting that opinion 2. Getting a second opinion 3. Or passing on bidding if the bidder is not comfortable knowing the authenticator owned the item. If potential bidders are concerned about this, please ask the auction house to see the letter before bidding.

3. Also disclosed on the back of the letter is a money back guarantee issued by the authenticator for items that they own. If the piece is sent for another expert opinion and it is found that information was wrong, omitted, or proven to be incorrect, the authenticator, not the auction house, will issue a full refund. Also, the cost of the authentication will be paid for by our authenticator."

I have a couple SCDA LOA's for "game worn" jerseys I won in the August 2004 Mastro and Hunt auctions. Neither of them has a check box or a money back guarantee. (I went back to check to see if I'd been duped by you guys.)

When exactly did your new ethics policy go into effect?

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  #102  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:24 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I would respectfully request that Robert Plancich and his attorney take the last two spots. He has the most at stake here. Agreed?

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  #103  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:26 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Aaron

Jay:

You wrote: "If you read Troy's post, SCDA no longer allows their authenticators sell items that they themselves have authenticated."

That's not what he wrote.

He wrote that SCDA authenticators couldn't consign items with SCDA LOA's. Note that Dave Bushing or Dan Knoll (or Troy) could offer their own LOA and still consign an item they own.

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  #104  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:34 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: jay behrens

I hope SCDA has them under contract so they cannot pull a stunt like that. It might also fall under a no compete clause if they have any contract at all.

I'd love to hear what Troy has to say on this as I haven't given much thought to loopholes, but this is definately something to be concerned with on an ethical level and a competition level if they are allowed to issue their own independent LOAs while still working for SCDA.

Jay

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --- WOW, What a ride!

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  #105  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:38 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Aaron

My last message of the night:

Troy wrote:

"The issue of disclosure has never been an issue to the collecting community up until the time of the Joe DiMaggio bat."

This one was just too good to pass up. Troy, the reason it wasn't an issue is because the collecting community at large didn't know this was even going on! I certainly didn't know. Aren't I part of the collecting community?

Come on.

What you really should have written was:

The issue of disclosure has never been an issue to the collecting community because it was a carefully guarded secret of which the vast majority of collectors were unaware of.

That at least sounds more honest.

Then you wrote:

"Once it became an issue, we instituted that policy within 30 days of it being brought to our attention."

ROTFL!!!!

What you really should have written was:

Once our secret was revealed and in became an issue, the public outrage forced us to take "action." Had the public not become aware, we would have continued to operate with the status quo.

Hi-larious. Good night!

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  #106  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:41 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Troy R. Kinunen

SCDA has taken the stance that our authenticators are still allowed to buy and sell. When selling, they can issue their own letter of authenticity. No letter from SCDA will be issued by our authenticators.

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  #107  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:45 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Aaron

Jay: You would think so, but it appears Troy (and his SCDA authenticators) came up with that specific language specifically so they could get around the ethics guidelines through that very loophole. Note that Troy does not say that SCDA authenticators may not sell items that they authenticated.

So individually they can do it, just not via SCDA.

Case in point, Dave Bushing is selling some game worn and used items on E-Bay right now ("DBushing1") where he offers his LOA.

At least that's open about the conflict of interest, so I can accept that. It's the concealment that's concerning.

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  #108  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:54 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Troy R. Kinunen

Where are the loopholes?

What is not being disclosed?


If Dave Bushing owns an item, he can sell it with his own letter. If he consigns it to an auction house and they hire SCDA to authenticate, the item is disclosed via the check box on the back of our 2005 letter.

Again, where is the loophole and lack of disclosure?

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  #109  
Old 01-29-2005, 10:56 PM
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Posted By: jay behrens

Troy, I hope you see the serious ethical problems with allowing your authenticators to buy, sell and issue their own LOAs outside of SCDA. Your authenticators need to be held to the absolute highest standard. This means that they have to have no appearance of impropriety or conflict of interest.

Jay

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --- WOW, What a ride!

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  #110  
Old 01-29-2005, 11:06 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: jay behrens

Troy, you don't think it's a problem that Bushing writes a LOA on an item, then MAstro decides to get SCDA to verify? Who at SCDA is going to dare say that something one of their authenticators isn't what it's claimed to be? It would professional suicide within the company to challenge Bushing or another top authenticator.

If a case like this came up, I would hope SCDA would say thanks, but it would major conflict of intrest on our part to verify the claims of one of our employees. There should never be the need for a check box on the back of an LOA or any other such silliness.

Your authenticators need to remove themselves from selling all together to remove any chance for the appearance of impropriety. I would think that you would want your company to be of the highest intregirity, and if Mr Bushing can't break away from selling stuff he authenticates, then you need to get rid of him as an authenticator because he cannot give you opinion on items that doesn't appear to be tainted.

Jay

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --- WOW, What a ride!

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  #111  
Old 01-29-2005, 11:17 PM
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Posted By: MW

If David Bushing is going to now reveal his ownership of all items he has consigned and perhaps authenticated himself then doesn't it stand to reason that he should also reveal how many (and which) previously consigned auction items fit into this same category?

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  #112  
Old 01-29-2005, 11:28 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Troy R. Kinunen

Dave has never had a problem disclosing what items he owns. If you have a question on a specific item, please ask. Now that a policy of addressing these items has been put in place, I suggest the following:


Would posting items on a website (and here) for all items SCDA authenticators own be a step in the right direction. We would be willing to state, For Auction House X, our authenticators have a finanical interest in the following lots: 1, 4, 56, 99, 105, 345. This would also be disclosed on the back of the LOAs as previously stated. If this board likes this idea, I will discuss with Dave about implementing it.

Troy

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  #113  
Old 01-29-2005, 11:34 PM
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Posted By: jay behrens

It's a step in the right direction. As long as someone other than the authenticator has authenticated the item, there shouldn't be much problem. It's when the authenticator authenticates his own item, that is where problem lies. These people should never sell an item that they have authenticated. It just doesn't look good no matter what the circumstance may be.

In an ideal world, your authenticators shouldn't be buying and selling items, period. Then you have no concerns about ethics and impropriety. It's your company to run, but I'd rahter save the headache of the appearance of impropriety then cowtow to the desires of your authenticators to buy and sell. Your authenticators should be just that, and not dealer/brokers on the side.

Jay

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --- WOW, What a ride!

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  #114  
Old 01-30-2005, 12:04 AM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

Some of my thoughts on LOAs.

1) What matters by far the most is the accuracy of the letter. If the letter's description is accurate, all the other stuff is technicalities. If the letter is bad, then the other stuff may prove to be of more significance.

2) While it doesn't bother me that the owner is writing the LOA, it would be a reasonable practice for letter writer to note that he is the owner. If that's the accepted rule, I think that's good. If SCDA discloses ownership and makes their disclosure rules clear, there you go.

3) Ownership does not prevent an LOA from being good. I recently bought a photograph from a famous photographer that he literally printed for me, signed and dated upon my request (not because he thought I'm a swell guy, but because I paid him $$). If some person down the road wanted to buy it from me and asked me to write an LOA with said story, am I to say, "Sorry. It would be considered unethical if I wrote that down on paper"?

4) Some may consider it desirable if an auction lot was owned and consigned by a well known figure. I'm sure many bat collectors would find it desirable the a bat came from Dave Bushing's personal collection. The irony is that, in cases, an auction house's disclosure that a bat was being consigned by Bushing may raise interest.

5) I forgot what I was going to say here but, as I recall, it was brilliant yet quite mad.

6) My pet peave about the baseball memorabilia hobby is some institutions inability to communicate with the normal collectors about things the collectors should know about. If SCDA (I'm guessing at the acronym here) puts in new rules to disclose more to collectors, that's a good thing in my mind. It seems to me that Troy posting here is a good sign too, as far as communication goes.

7) I'm sick of baseball bats. Take this over to the bat forum.

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  #115  
Old 01-30-2005, 12:20 AM
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Posted By: jay behrens

David, a very valid point about owner's writing LOAs. The difference in your scenario is that there isn't any other way to really do that LOA. In the case of something like the DiMaggio bat, the authenticator has everything to gain from saying it's a streak bat, but he is not the only person capable of making this determination.

Jay

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --- WOW, What a ride!

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  #116  
Old 01-30-2005, 01:03 AM
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Posted By: J Levine

I personally do not collect game-used or autographs for the reasons listed above but one thing does trouble me a little. A lot of collectors are slamming Bushing, et.al. (and in my opinion rightfully so) for doing what many of us do practically everyday...I have bought items (read as vintage cards) and authenticated them myself, and then sold them on ebay giving them my personal guarantee of authenticity and originality. Not once asking for a second opinion, confident in the knowledge that I have acquired over the years (just as I am sure Bushing et. al. think). I think that Bushing and some of the other game used authenticators have crossed an ethical line by non-disclosure of ownership and instead of just admitting mistakes and trying to correct them they have tried to cover their collectives butts.

I have been at shows many times and helped tell friends and dealers about cards and letting them know if they were reprits, fakes, or orginals. Do I consider myself the foremost authenticator of Phillies or T-205 cards? Of course not! I always tell the people that I give information to that it is my opinion. Heck, some of you even saw me run around to about six dealers incl. Mastro, fellow board members Art M. and David L., and another collector that I respect when I was asked if a t-205 blank back was real. Consensus was it was real (and it was nice) and I ended up buying it from the dealer who asked me to look at it...Now, I have authenticated it to my satisfaction and if I decide to sell it, many of you would buy it on spec. from me just because I have a small reputaion of being an "expert" on T-205s. No LOA, no COA, no third party grader. Just me. Just like Bushing. The difference is that you know I own it and I back my product. Bushing hides behind the authentication and the company he consigned the item to. I think that is the unethical part.

The point of all this is, I have no problem with demanding more than one authentication and asking questions, but remember that people in glass houses should not throw stones and no one is perfect. I have made mistakes, admitted them, refunded money, etc. It is not that hard to do. I wish people would just admit their mistakes, stop suing each other, and get on with collecting...

I feel that people should ask questions and I encourage it but just be aware next time you sell on ebay an ungraded/unauthenticated item that you may be doing the same thing as Bushing.

I will end this tired tirade now...

Joshua

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  #117  
Old 01-30-2005, 01:20 AM
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Posted By: jay behrens

Joshua, good point. But there is a huge difference between us "authenticating" cards and Bushing, et al authetincating bats, etc, especially when making claims as to a particular item being used at a particular time. There's a huge difference in price between a DiMaggio gamer and one used during The Streak. You just don't look at a bat, look it over and say this is a Streak bat. And we all know money will make people do stupid or unethical things.

Jay

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --- WOW, What a ride!

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  #118  
Old 01-30-2005, 03:13 AM
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Posted By: Joe P.

Build Me a Horse!

A LARGE Horse.

And I will get you all the Authentic bats, gloves, balls and uniforms to passeth on to our Lemmings.

About the Lemmings Troy, have you noticed the numbers dropping off a bit lately?

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  #119  
Old 01-30-2005, 06:31 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Troy, here's a very simple way to end this controversy (and more importantly, convince yourself that going forward you'll be able to make as much money as before Bushing's dishonest business practice was revealed):

All Bushing-authenticated memorabilia should be able to be returned for the price paid.

That's only fair, right? If you all are truly concerned about transparency going forward, it is only fair that consumers be given this chance.

Now I recognize that this may cost more than flying 5 guys from this board to Chicago, but fair is fair.

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  #120  
Old 01-30-2005, 08:03 AM
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Posted By: PASJD

Instead of the new disclosure policy with all the fine print, why don't the major auction houses simply decline to sell items in which their authenticators have a financial interest? How hard is that? If the authenticators want to sell items from their personal collections, fine, let them do it on ebay under their own names, and let their LOA's reflect the fact of the direct sale so that future purchasers are not deceived. While fuller disclosure is commendable, it seems to me it still does not avoid the appearance of impropriety and incestuous relationships. There are some things that even disclosure does not cure and are best avoided in the first instance. Is the problem that too large a percentage of the memorabilia out there is in fact owned by the authenticators themselves?

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  #121  
Old 01-30-2005, 08:20 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Take a look at the stuff Bushing is selling on ebay. He sells stuff which he claims to be 'game used' (even though a Dale Murphy bat is described as having 'no real game wear.') What a laugher! He'll continue to work his money printing press (oops, I mean provide his LOA) and the suckers keep coming! Dave, I'm sure it felt good to watch that Dimag bat sell ... but do you have any integrity at all?

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  #122  
Old 01-30-2005, 08:59 AM
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Posted By: warshawlaw

But I have no interest in going to Wisconsin in the dead of winter to review materials that I will obtain via subpoena or otherwise shortly. Since SCDA has no problem making these materials available to several collectors free of charge, Instead of my attending, I would request that SCDA make the materials available to a bonded copy service representative I will ask to attend the meeting.

Meanwhile, in regard to the conflict of interests issue, Troy, I think you are missing the point: Jim Beckett sold out his interest in his card shop when it became apparent that if he continued to buy and sell cards his price guides would always be suspected of being vehicles to pump his inventory. The same is true for authenticators who sell their own stuff. As long as Mr. Bushing is a dealer and an authenticator, he will be suspected of using his authenticator's position for personal gain, whether it is directly pimping things he owns as was the case with the DiMaggio bat or benefitting his items by underrating comparable items so that the value of his "better" inventory surges. You see how insidious it is?

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  #123  
Old 01-30-2005, 09:18 AM
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Posted By: PASJD

Of course they get the point. They choose not to act on it, because the same people doing the authenticating apparently also own what may well be a signficant percentage of the memorabilia in the marketplace. Perhaps that is inevitable, as there may not be enough money in "just" authenticating to earn a living (as there is in cards due to volume). So what you will see are some incremental, fine print disclosures, and perhaps that is the best one can hope for. It's better than one can hope for on the card front; I SERIOUSLY doubt (although I hope I am wrong) that Mastro is going to fully disclose from now on the extent to which each card in his auctions has "received services from" (I am loathe to use the loaded "restored" word) his "outside conservator."

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  #124  
Old 01-30-2005, 11:25 AM
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Posted By: Jerry Ficchi

Last year I purchased a DiMaggio used coach’s bat from a Slater’s Auction which came with a Bushing/Knoll letter of authenticity. The letter states the bat is 35 inches. At the last Fort Washington show, I brought the bat to Troy and Dave and paid SCDA in order to receive a better/prettier/more comprehensive letter. When I received said letter, much to my surprise, the bat had miraculously turned into a 34.5-inch "team" bat as DiMaggio had never ordered that size.

My question is, did Bushing consign this "Coach’s" bat to Slater, stating its 35-inch length in order to sell it, then, when faced with reauthenticating the same bat, reveal its true colors? Granted, it’s far from a $100k+ bat, but to me it makes a difference. This is simply another example of the shenanigans that go on in this "hobby". As a matter of fact, when reading his signed Slater’s letter of authenticity, Bushing joked that he should bring it to Jimmy Spence to authenticate his own signature.

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  #125  
Old 01-30-2005, 11:34 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ahh...Bushing and SCDA...what a perfect team! It's like a tag-team match in professional wrestling. Now if only you had asked Bushing if the bat was a real Dimiggio used coach's bat instead of simply accepting his word, you might have been steered in the right direction. Your bad!

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  #126  
Old 01-30-2005, 12:29 PM
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Posted By: Billy

"But I have no interest in going to Wisconsin in the dead of winter to review materials that I will obtain via subpoena or otherwise shortly."

I died laughing when I saw that, thanks warshawlaw.

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  #127  
Old 01-30-2005, 12:57 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

On an interesting side note, I knew a guy who got a job working for the Beckett baseball price guide. Part of his job was gathering prices from dealers and such, calculating prices and such. He was just a regular worker and no big wig. He told me that Beckett forbade him buying and selling baseball cards, at least on a regular basis. I don't think it was against house rules to buy a Mickey Mantle for his nephew's birthday or perhaps even for himself once in a while, but he couldn't deal. When he got the job, he sold of a lot of his collection because he knew he couldn't sell them while working there. He did keep a few cards as part of his personal collection.

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  #128  
Old 01-30-2005, 03:39 PM
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Posted By: mcavoy

I believe a difference is evident when a certificate is issued by SCDA versus Mr. Bushing (or anyone else). SCDA, presumably, wants a viable business and high reputation yesterday, today and in the future, so the corporation retains value. Coin World holding company owns ANACS, and authenticator and grader of coins, so publishers in the collectibles businesses seem to spread their fingers into many pies. But the second any doubt about the qualifications of Mr. Bushing, any SCDA certificate signed by him is suspect. I think SCDA would want to rethink permitting Mr. Bushing from selling his items with his certificate, since his potential poor reputation could bring potential suspicion to SCDA certificates bearing his signature.

As a side note, in my view, this much different than me providing my certificate with the items I sell. If the items I sell come under suspicion and I fail to make right, I risk a poor reputation - no one else does. I am not a third party. SCDA is a 3rd party, and they create value from their opinions. When Mr. Bushing issues certificates on items he has a financial stake in, he is not a 3rd party, and SCDA is indirectly no longer a 3rd party.

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  #129  
Old 01-30-2005, 04:34 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Interesting. An enitre day has passed after I made a suggestion that all SCDA/Bushing authenticated materials be permitted to be returned for a refund. Troy, I can hear the crickets chirping.....

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  #130  
Old 01-30-2005, 07:07 PM
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Posted By: PASJD

I am curious, do the Grey Flannel bat authentication guys (Malta and Taube) also sell their own bats through the major auction houses or do they subscribe to different rules than Mr. Bushing?

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  #131  
Old 01-30-2005, 07:35 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Interesting question. I'll call them tomorrow and find out. Could it be possible that they have Bushing's Disease also?

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  #132  
Old 01-31-2005, 04:24 AM
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Posted By: Anonymous


fuzzysloth doesn't the second letter mean the 1st letter was a fraud??? why don't you ask for your money back based on the 2nd letter?? isn't that what a LOA is?, a guarentee that which you purchase is REAL(as in the LOA) or does the LOA from bushing not carry any guarentee?i'm confused?

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  #133  
Old 01-31-2005, 08:09 AM
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Posted By: Jerry Ficchi

Unfortunately, Slaters Auctions was purchased by Heritage Auctions and they won’t honor previous letters.

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  #134  
Old 01-31-2005, 08:32 AM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: J Levine

Adam could probably let you know better than I but if Heritage bought the other auction house, don't they take on the liability as well...depending on the contract of the sale, they may have to honor the other's letters, debts, guarentees, etc.

-Joshua

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Old 01-31-2005, 08:42 AM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: leon

I am no business acquisition expert but do know that the way a company is bought has a lot to do with what the past liabilites will be. If a company buys the stock of another, instead of just the assets, then they are probably liable. I know when I bought some companies last year I only bought the assets, not the stock, so was not liable for the other company's liabilities. It might change with what state you're in too. So in answer to your question it's hard to say if they bought the liablities without knowing the way the deal was structured.....best regards

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Old 01-31-2005, 12:23 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Joe P.

All past liabilities be Stabilized!
And they were stabilized.

However, I don't recall getting an LOA?

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Old 02-01-2005, 08:20 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Anonymous

Interestingly enough, page 6 of the latest SCD - The Inside Pitch column, "Authenticating the Authenticators."

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Old 02-01-2005, 08:40 PM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: davidcycleback

It would take a flaming dumb ass to accept a $15 examination fee so he could accept total financial liability for a $50,000 piece of memorabilia.

A collector should ask an expert for his learned and objective opinion. And if a learned and objective opinion from an expert is not good enough for a collector, that's the collector's problem.

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Old 02-02-2005, 12:49 AM
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Default Ty Cobb/Bushing/SCDA/Game-Used Decal Bat

Posted By: Joe P.

Bushing?
You?

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  #140  
Old 07-08-2018, 10:39 AM
ruth-gehrig ruth-gehrig is offline
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Over 13 years ago since the last post of this thread. What ever came of all this?
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  #141  
Old 07-09-2018, 01:08 AM
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When the centerbrand says “Made By” instead of the players initials (TC, in this instance), it is a Professional Model Bat. The initials within the centerbrand would indicate a store model Bat. The professional models were typically Hand turned and featured better wood, finer grain, etc.

Here’s an example that recently closed with authentication from Taube and Mears...

http://sports.mearsonlineauctions.co...LOT122182.aspx
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:07 AM
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Joe P. is missed.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
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