T206 PSA PLANK Just listed for sale!

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Posted By: John

I'm too scared now I'm getting out of T206's Mike come pick up my cards I want them out of my house by night fall! I'm moving over to Pokemon!

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Posted By: T206Collector

Sure you weren't talking about Carter's Plank. It's never personal with you, I understand.

I also didn't say he "spent a lifetime searching" as you did. When you accuse someone of misrepresentation, try to avoid making misrepresentations.



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Posted By: Bobby Binder

Mastro has sold 2 authentic Planks

4/28/07 for $15,508.80

12/10/05 for $50,575.40

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Posted By: John

"Sure you weren't talking about Carter's Plank. It's never personal with you, I understand."

I apologized and said it was a general statement, what’s your problem?

Paul, play the violin on someone else's clock. You can toss the word fraud around left and right on this card. You can also tell people why the way you collect is better, you can end auctions early and explain to everyone why you did it because all you collect is autographed t206's so that makes it ok.

But mention the words "dog chewed" and "Plank" in the same sentence and here come the water works you need to relax, contrary to your belief there have been and are other rough Planks out there that have been sold.




In fact for a guy who has said many times I’m not looking for buddies and one must take what ever measures to win any auction at anytime. I guess I just figured a guy with such a cutthroat attitude wouldn’t be so thin skinned. I’ll be real careful with discussing card conditions in the future.

"He also spent decades looking for an upgrade, but never found it. That's the beauty of his "dog-chewed" Plank"

Sorry not lifetimes just decades….yeah huge difference my bad Paul.

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Posted By: Jamie B

I enjoy Blood on Tuesdays.. so bottom line.. is anyone here bidding on this card.. except for willy wonka?

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Posted By: Adam

What is the value of the SGC 1.5 John just posted? Any past pricing on that specific card? (I know memory lane wants 30k for it, but they are as crazy as whoever thinks they are going to get 20k for a PSA 1 Magie, like the one recently posted on eBay).

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, is that your Plank above? Or is that Plank for sale? That's a pretty damn nice 1.5.

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Posted By: JimB

Paul's has "Lionel Carter Collection" on the flip. That is a very nice one. I agree.
JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"or get a filler card that looks like a dog chewed on it from 1909 till 2008 then coughed into a holder."

I just read this line and laughed. Hard. Sorry, but that is a funny image.

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Posted By: Trae R.

I've figured out that the card shown in the scan I posted is the same card for sale on eBay. It was sold raw in the December 2006 Mastro Auction, then again in April 2007.




---
"There ain't much to being a ballplayer, if you're a ballplayer."
-Honus Wagner

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Posted By: T206Collector

It's funny, because you see hypocrisy in my comments, whereas I see hypocrisy in your comments. I'm not going to debate it or go into any further discussion in public. If you'd care for a further accounting, feel free to email me.

I hardly have the time and inclination to start defending myself on a post about your decision to bid $10K on a bogus card. As you have done to me, I am "calling bs" on you, plain and simple.


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Posted By: John

Paul I apologized before if you took my general comment about Plank cards and lower condition examples as directed towards you, I’m done holding your hand on this one. I’ve said my peace and you’ve said yours. Now I’d like to get back to discussing cards or at least laughing about them, if you hate me now that’s ok too. The line is long perhaps you and the other guys I but heads with can form a book club.

Hey maybe you can even blog about how much you hate me on your website, perhaps you can call Mr. Carter and see if he also doesn’t like me, heck get out a Ouija board and channel up great collectors from the past and see where they weigh in, then blog it up!

As for my bids and your thoughts on calling the card bogus, once agin Paul you're right your the T206 master. After all you must be you have a webpage...

Oh and by the way for a guy who only collects Autographed T206's and pre-war cards I'd be careful tossing around the bogus word too much, you might just find the sweet smell of bogus in your camp someday...if it's not there already.

Until then good talk as always….

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Posted By: Jamie B

willy wonka you can throw bows with the best of em.... are you still going for the card?

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Posted By: Phil B

Wonka- you'd better check your eggdicator. I detect some bad eggs.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...invite such drama, and I am not really interested.

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Posted By: Jeff S.

Yeah, but he's a wiz with the Photoshop, touche!

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Excuse my delayed response to your prior post. Regarding this Plank card, you asked me why I.... "dismissed so quickly as being
rebacked" ?
In my very 1st post (Tues. 12:14 PM), I questioned the legitimacy of this Plank card because of it's uncatalogued back; however,
I did not say it was "re-backed". That term came up in subsequent posts.

My first reaction upon seeing this card was its borders appear to wide. I have never seen a Plank card with such wide side borders.
And, perhaps in the restoration of this card the borders were augmented. But, the presence of the Sweet Cap 150 Factory 30 back
really raised an alarm. Early discussions (1970's - early '80s) with knowledgeable veterans in the hobby Bill Heitman, Irv Lerner, etc.
regarding the "mystique" of the Plank card, I recall a connection being drawn to the Sweet Cap Wagner cards. As I'm sure you know,
the Wagner with a Sweet Cap 150 back only exists with a Factory 25 example. So, having never seen a 150 Series Plank with other
than a Factory 25 back, the consensus of opinion was that possibly Wagner and Plank were printed on the same sheet when the 150
Series was first produced. And, this very plausible situation has existed for at least 30 years since, not having any other evidence of
either Wagner or Plank cards surfacing with any other Factory type back. So, that's where I'm coming from. Other's may differ, but
unless you (or others) can produce an un-restored, unquestionable Plank card with a SC 150 Fac. 30 back, I stand by my contention.

Prior to placing my 1st post here yesterday, I made a few phone calls to hobbyist who I felt could confirm my thoughts on this matter.
And, they indeed did. So, I didn't just "jump" to a rash conclusion here. So, I felt it necessary to caution everyone about this card.

To your final comment....."I am just a skeptic who always wants more proof!"
Fine, but in lawyer parlance....tell me...."How do I prove a negative" ?

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Posted By: John

I really have to stop believing everything I read…..LOL just kidding Ted Z super big thanks for looking out for everyone’s best interest myself included!

After reading what you said and with all the auction house practices being questioned even I was nervous there for a second…but after looking thru all of my images of cards I missed or couldn’t afford (anyone else have this folder of depression?) I found many. In fact in the 150 series all of the recent Planks offered publically for sale have had SC factory #30 2nd NY backs.

Also of note all the SC 350 images I have were also Factory #30 as well, I dont even think I had a pic of a Factory #25 card....

Here’s the proof…this should put the re-back issue to bed.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I stand corrected.....Thank you for finding these.....they are the 1st examples of SC 150 Factory 30 Plank cards I have seen.
See, even an old T-Rex can learn some new things after all these years.

I will have to go back to the "drawing board" on this Subject....at least I stirred up some thought-provoking stuff on this one.

Best regards,

TED Z

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Posted By: leon

Not to try to start a world war but does anyone else think the bottom of the Plank that is a PSA 3, right above this, has a really interesting looking bottom border? How do all of the other borders have a nice aged look and the middle of that bottom one looks nice and new? Maybe I am just skeptical in my old age?

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Posted By: peter ullman

leon...i agree...definitely a wierd edge...you could shave with the bottom of that plank!

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Posted By: John

Leon if not mistaken that PSA 3 was sold raw in a Hunt auction I was one of the under bidders, it then later popped up in the holder weeks later and sold on ebay for quite some coin. I think the card sold in Hunt for around 12-14k raw, then fetched close to the high 20's in its question proof plastic fortress of solitude.

Hope this helps...also for the record I have it on good authority that the PSA 7 has been under the knife as well....with that said I'd take that card in a heart beat and pay good money to boot easily the best Plank image I have ever seen.

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Posted By: peter ullman

that 7 is earily stunning...and a bit nauseating all at the same time!

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted - never thought you were jumping to a rash conclusion. I wish I understood backs on the level you all do.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think there are too many people who understand the nuances of the set better than Ted, and I know how hard he has worked to accumulate that knowledge. How about a tip of the hat to my buddy Ted Z!

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

John W. has proven beyond any doubt that....."you can teach an old dinosaur (me) new tricks".

JON

I've sent you an email.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

An old dinosaur as in T-Rex?

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Posted By: John

Ted, you can teach me much more than I you, at least we have a good driving conversation for our weekend road trip coming up!

Looking forward to catching up with you, again thanks.

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Posted By: Joann

I have been meaning to do this, and will now that Barry has brought it up.

I think that in the world of vintage card collecting Ted Z is pretty much a national treasure at this point. I know that may sound melodramatic but I've been thinking that for awhile and it is the only term I can think of that sums up what I mean. It boggles my mind to think of how much knowledge he is carrying around in his head and shares freely. I often wonder if he can pop these posts off the top of his head at the keyboard, or if he has extensive notes that he refers to before posting.

Not trying to hijack the Plank thread, but I did want to toss this in after seeing Barry post similar thoughts upthread.

Joann

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know Ted for almost 25 years now. He has a near photographic memory, so while I don't think he has all those very long lists memorized, I wouldn't be shocked if he did.

I've told this story before, but when I first came into the hobby my collecting passion became 1949 Bowmans. There was something about that set that I found very compelling. My reference source was an article that Ted and Ralph Triplette wrote jointly for Baseball Cards Magazine in 1983. I was amazed that anybody could know so much about a set of baseball cards. One night I get a phone call from someone wishing to purchase a few 49B's from one of my SCD ads. Sure enough, it was Ted himself. There I was, a hobby beginner getting to speak to the author of my favorite article! I can still picture that phone call, all these years later.

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Posted By: John

"I can still picture that phone call, all these years later."

Oh yeah Barry....what were you wearing when he called, and what was playing on the radio....

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Posted By: Fred C

It would be nice if the before and after pictures were provided. Ok, we have the after picture...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I was wearing my thong underwear, and the Ramones "I Wanna be Sedated" was on the radio.

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Posted By: JimB

"I don't think there are too many people who understand the nuances of the set better than Ted, and I know how hard he has worked to accumulate that knowledge. How about a tip of the hat to my buddy Ted Z!"

Agreed! Thanks for all your work and research Ted.
JimB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You all are just too nice......I was the "dufus", who was the ignorant one on this extra Plank back, yet you were kind.
Wow, this is a great forum of people.

JOANN

Barry says I have a "near photographic memory", perhaps. However, I attribute my ability to recall all this stuff to my
mathematical mind. And yes, most of the time I...."can pop these posts off the top of my head at the keyboard".
I really appreciate your kind words.

BARRY

Here is what I remember from that call I placed to you back in the Spring of '83, I demanded......

"I want your Bowman's ! ....I'll buy them all ! ....especially your Richie (Ashburn) ! ....your Duke (Snider) ! ....your Jackie
(Robinson) ! ....your Satchell (Paige) ! ....how much do you want for them ! ?

Ha......what movie scene is this scenario a take off on ? ?
Hint, it's main characters were the "Chicago Connection" and it was cast there.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

I can't place it, but it sounds awfully familiar. Could I get another small hint?

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Posted By: Jerry Rucker

Was Ray Charles in that scene?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Blues Brothers? Funny, I was thinking John Belushi.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

That scene in that fancy restaurant is a classic Belushi act....the entire movie is a classic. Some really great movies in
the 1970's. Starting with The French Connection, American Graffiti, The Sting, Blazing Saddles, Jaws, The Blues Brothers.

What I really remember of our first encounter (on that Tel. call), was I first asked you if your Richie Ashburn card was
available. Then you made my day by telling me how much you enjoyed the 1949 Bowman set article. The Spring issue of
BB Cards magazine just out and you were the first to give me feedback on it. Then Ralph and I received 100's of positive
letters from all over the country. And, one "negative" letter from guess who....Keith Olberman. It was obvious to me from
his remarks that he didn't bother to read the article. So I responded sarcastically, telling him to read it in its entirety.
He sent me a 2nd letter with a "qualified" apology.

Me-thinks he suffers from the well known "non-invented here syndrome", that affects people who are always skeptical of
other's ideas....simply because they didn't think of them first.

Gee, 25 years of a beautiful friendship.....Thanks for reminiscing.

TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Cheers!

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Posted By: Dan P.

In John's post (3/25/08 at 2:09 pm) I recognize the handiwork on that aletered Plank photo--the work was done by Colin Clive.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"...I am surprised that Wonka bid $10,000 on this card in this auction. That's not a casual decision for most folks."


-Paul, the card is at almost $17K...



"It should be either destroyed or clearly marked on the card as restored."


-It is clearly graded "authentic/altered" by PSA.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...that it wouldn't sell for a lot of money. Heck, it sold for $15K in Mastro last April in the auction I pasted above.

Also, obviously PSA labeled the case "Altered" -- I meant that a card like this should have the word "altered" actually written on it, like the word "reprint."

In any event, if you want a further explanation of the reason for my comments on this post, feel free to email me. I am not interested in continuing them in public.


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Posted By: T206Collector

DUPLICATE

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Posted By: Joseph Shirley

Hi everyone! I am new to this forum. I am a long time stamp and coin collector, but only been into T206's for about 4 years. I have been lurking around here for about a week, and have been very impressed with the knowledgable collectors here. I will definately expand my knowledge of T206's listening to many of you here. Just wanted to post a thought about restored/altered cards.

I found some of the opinions that restored cards should be removed from the market and destroyed very interesting. I do not think that will ever happen. The best way to see how this will evolve, is simply to look at the postage stamp market. That market has been around a bit longer than cards, and is an interesting study to compare too. Because stamps are printed on paper and not carboard, many have deteriated worse over the years than cards.
Trimmed, reperfed, rebacked, regummed stamps are perfectly accepted in the collecting market place. However, it does require the collector to be carefull. Many dishonest dealers will sell a raw reperfed stamp as a non-reperfed stamp to an uneducated collector for a significant premium.

As long as PSA labels this card as altered or restored (I do not see a significant difference), I am ok with it. As these cards get older, and Third Party graders start to run out of cards to grade, we will see more of this. It will probably follow the same pattern as their sister division PSE for stamps. More raw cards will be allowed into slabs, but will be labelled more specifically. The qualifier labels will be expanded. Slabs with altered, rebacked, trimmed, etc. will apear.

In the long run I think keeping these cards available (as long as the are properly labelled) is very good for the hobby. As the supply of quality material falls behind demand, the prices of these cards will start to creep out of reach for many collectors. Many collectors will not even try to go after the monster. However, if restored cards are allowed, along with an expanded qualifier base to even the common cards; many people will remain interested in collecting. They can start to build the set or fill holes at an affordable price, and upgrading later when they are able.

In reference to the Plank card, and comparing it to the stamp market. Most restored stamps only sell for about 5% to 10% of their un-altered counterpart. Super rarities, and this Plank qualifies could go as high as 35%. Assuming this card would compare to a PSA-6 or PSA-7, it does not suprise me in the least that many collectors will bid this one up.

Anyway, just a thought.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...on the parallels between baseball cards and stamps. I think you hilighted both sides of the argument quite well. As Wonka said above, we all draw lines in the sand when we collect what we collect. The fact that I am for removing glue residue and erasing pencil marks makes me less conservative than those that find such practices as unpermissible alterations. My line in the sand has to do with adding paper, color and/or substance to a card. But I agree, as long as the card stays in the PSA holder, there should not be any fraud. To me, the major concern is what you referenced -- such a card in the wrong hands has the ability to do some major damage. Caveat emptor.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Here may be an interesting question:

What if this or any restored card was brought back to its original condition...rebuilt corners removed, added color removed etc.? Would you still consider it to be altered or restored?

Kevin

-------------


http://www.AlteredCards.com - an education on doctored cards...and more.

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Posted By: leon

My guess is that each person will have their own view of this subject. I remember when Mastro sold a restored Wagner. Later they sold the same card unrestored..(it had been reversed as you are saying) I don't remember the prices they sold for though. For me, if something was altered and then every bit of the altering was undone and couldn't be seen at all, then I would consider it unaltered....that's just me though...regards

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Posted By: peter ullman

to me it's like every time I place a filling...the cavity(the hole in which the filling gets placed) always get's bigger. So if you undo an alteration...it is likely that the card will be worse off than prior to restoration/repair. I realize that kevin is saying you wouldn't be able to tell...in which case I guess it's fine. Now that that's crystal clear...

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i am with Leon, if every bit of restoration is reveresed, i would consider the card, unaltered...

IF i won the Plank, i would do that very thing...have ALL of the restoration professionally removed...