The long awaited PSA half grade!

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Posted By: DD

I would think that dealers holding PSA 8 Pop 1's will be sending them in for a chance of having the grade bumped, whether they agree or not with PSA's new system.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Will the card be determined to get the bump BY EXAMINING IT IN THE CURRENT HOLDER (i.e., inspecting the card through plastic)? If so, I thought that was a no no. If not the case, then that would mean they take it out of the current slab, re-examine it, and either put it in a bumped-up slab or return it to the original slab (or create a new one if the original was destroyed in the process). It blows my mind to think in such an instance if they realize the card is altered that they would still install/re-install it in a slab opining the card as unaltered. For that matter, even if they make their final decisions by examining the card through a wall of plastic, it still blows my mind that they would knowingly return to circulation a card now determined to be altered. I think Joe Orlando is doing an extraordinary disservice to an industry he professes to serve by not coming on this Board and explaining exactly what PSA's policy is for cards determined upon re-submission to be altered. Do they buy them back and if so, how is the price determined? If they do not and instead return the card to circulation, then maybe its time some PSA lovers who have been blasting (and legitimately so) auction houses for shill bidding and/or card prepping to turn their crosshairs on PSA.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Do all T206 Cobb PSA 3's sell for the same price each time? Do all 33 Goudey Ruth PSA 8's sell for the same price each time? Of course not. High end cards for the grade have always sold for a premium and lower end examples sell for a discount. The hobby did not need a .5 on the holder to make that call. This is not going to change with a new half grade system and I doubt prices will reflect a significant change unless the registry folks buy into this process, which is what PSA is betting on.

The concept that upon submitting your card for the half grade consideration that it cannot go down in grade or be deemed altered seems inherently wrong. The implication is that you are paying a fee to buy a grade (albeit a half grade), risking nothing other than the submission fee. How can PSA only acknowledge betterment and not be required to address errors in their original assessments? The errors they made were only to the detriment to the collector by under grading a card? They never holdered an altered card or over graded one? Not that most of you have ever had faith in PSA but this process completely undermines their standing as a competent and neutral 3rd party grader and reinforces that PSA does is not looking to correct or grade more accurately the cards already in population.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

To address your last point first, I agree. PSA's motives here seem very transparent -- increase revenue through a flood of resubmissions. From the posts to date it seems unlikely they have any concern for the good of the industry.

In regard to intent, as I understand the law, in civil actions for fraud intent may be imputed. So just because PSA says they didn't know they were returning an altered card to circulation (a/k/a the stupidity defense), it won't fly. If the alteration is of such a nature that they reasonably should have detected it (e.g., rebuilt corners easily seen under black light), then I would think the necessary fraudulent intent would be imputed. Going further, let me give another analogy. Suppose a company sets up a new factory in, say, a primarily African American area with a high unemployment rate. And suppose 99% of the company's three thousand new hires are Caucasians. I'd love to hear the reaction to the company's defense to a discrimination lawsuit that "by golly, we took the best people who applied and 99% of them just happened to be Causcasian." Same too with resubmissions to PSA. I don't believe anybody can credibly argue that a significant percentage of high-grade-slabbed cards from certain issues are not altered. If PSA argues that the reason they never took out of circulation any of the thousands of such cards that were sent to it for re-submission was that they in good faith (utlizing all the necessary equipment) couldn't find a single altered one, nobody would believe them. All the more so if on top of this their stated policy is to return to circulation cards they did find to be altered (indicating that their real concern was not to incur loss from buying back altered cards). Just like in the factory example if the hiring manager headed the local chapter of the KKK; that hardly would seem to buttress his company's position that they acted without discriminatory intent.

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Posted By: Jimmy

I support both companies as they have had great impact on this hobby for years now, and just like any business they need to development and have change and new ideas. The question really is how would you feel if SGC turned around and said we need to add qualifiers just like PSA to be more accurate? PSA had a set registry than SGC wanted one; PSA started giving cards authentic grades, then other grading companies followed. I understand the process is about making money, but collectors have often said to PSA, why not have a half grading system like SGC. The past few years PSA has tried to improve customer service, but SGC will always be the best in that department. Now PSA has made a big change to include half grades like the other companies. The options that PSA have are more then just grading cards. SGC just grades cards and has no other services. We as collectors and dealers at least have options to pick the company to do business with or both if we want to, they are surviving the business ups and downs on a hobby. It really is too early to tell what kind of an impact this will have, and am not sure about the change either.

Jimmy

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Posted By: Matt

Jimmy as I stated earlier (although in a 100+ post thread, no foul for not reading all the way) what is upsetting people is not the implementation of the half point grading system. It is the guaranteed equal or greater then upgrade policy that they are using, which basically devalues their grades since, as a whole, cards graded by PSA will now carry higher grades for the same cards.

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Posted By: JimB

Of course PSA is trying to make money. So what. They are a business. I wish they had done this long ago. It will be frustrating for Jim Crandalls of the world. I would think that they should offer a reduced submission rate for re-evaluation of cards already in PSA holders for two reasons:
1. They have already been paid for authentication of the card. If they want to treat their customers with respect, they should not double charge them.
2. Since they presumably do not need to check for alterations or authenticity, only grade, the process should be less time consuming.

JimB

In general though, I like the idea of a greater breakdown of grades. I wish SGC would add additional half grades at 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, and 6.5. I strongly second the wish that SGC would improve their website, especially Pop Report and Registry.

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Posted By: DJ

I oppose this. For years, perhaps it was a good idea, but too many cards have been graded. It changes the balance of the way cards are bought, sold and collected.

All it does is bring into question whether something "deserves" a higher grade and all it makes us sheep do is send in hopes of...what...climb the atop the Registry and improve upon the award winning sets? If I had a complete PSA 8 set, I'm not sure I would be pleased about this because I would feel the rules had changed. If another guy with a PSA 8 set sends all his cards in, won't he trump me with his various 8 1/2's?

And why can't a PSA 7 now become a PSA 6 1/2 and how long before we use further fractions...like 6 1/4 or 6 1/8?

PSA is fantastic at this. They turned to grading signed balls on a scale (a perfect 10 Willie McCovey is now worth $350?) and it's simply put in place to squeeze a fraction out of us.

DJ

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Posted By: Matt

It would be best for the hobby if companies simply authenticated and inspected for alterations.

We all look for different things in a card - one may want a clean front and not care about back damage; another wants solid registration and doesn't mind corner wear, etc. Leaving the number off of the cards would allow each card to be evaluated with an open mind.

The only argument I see against this is that with the increase of internet sales, scanned cards do not do justice to hidden creases/nicks. If the card has such damage and the seller doesn't make it known, then seller should allow returns within a reasonable time frame. If you want to press this point further, I would suggest the companies detail the "issues" with the card (to be viewed online via the serial number) but not assign a number grade; that way I would know if the card indeed has a crease not visible by the scan, but I could come to my own conclusions about how I would weigh such a defect.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"In general though, I like the idea of a greater breakdown of grades. I wish SGC would add additional half grades at 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, and 6.5. I strongly second the wish that SGC would improve their website, especially Pop Report and Registry."


Jim, i agree with every point your made.

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Posted By: Martin Neal

Personally I have to deal with the necessary evil of the grading companies. I, as well as many here, buy large groups of cards and have to sell off the dupes in order to finance my purchases. Although I love my T205 Mordacai
Browns, I don't need 6 of them in my collection. I must get them graded in order to realize at least what I have in them. Although they look awful sweet in their Sgc holders!

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"It blows my mind to think in such an instance if they realize the card is altered that they would still install/re-install it in a slab opining the card as unaltered. For that matter, even if they make their final decisions by examining the card through a wall of plastic, it still blows my mind that they would knowingly return to circulation a card now determined to be altered."



We can easily put this to the test. I have quite a few "known altered cards" that look higher than their actual grade.

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Posted By: barrysloate

DJ stated exactly what I was thinking. The PSA registry is very competitive, and in many cases the difference between the #1 set and the #2 set is just hundreths of a point. So if the guy with the number one set chooses not to send his cards in, but the the guy with the number two set resubmits his cards, just a handful of half grade bumps may be enough to move him into the number one slot. So now the other guy is forced to send his whole set in even if he doesn't want to, because he will not be able to live with being second best.

What a marketing coup this is!

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

The registry is very competitive but this may place too large of a price tag on trying to move up the ladder. It is one thing to pay up for a high grade card but it is another to spend another 20 or 30 thousand dollars (or far more) to buy a few grade points. This just might be a wake up call to registry participants. In essence adding the half grade starts over the set building process.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Not one poster so far has come close to understanding the economics for a major owner of slabbed cards.

There are a lot of big smiles by major set registry participants currently.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- since you are a member of the PSA Hall of Fame (is that a good place to take the kids on a rainy Saturday?), and since you feel we all missed the point, please elaborate.

I'm sure you have a better read on this than I do.

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Posted By: JimB

It makes logical sense that a card would not be downgraded. Assuming the cards were assessed accurately the first time, I have always assumed that any card graded a 7 was somewhere in the hypothetical 7.0-7.99 range. So presumably those at the higher end of that would now get a half grade bump. What is the big controversy?
JimB

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Posted By: peter ullman

my guess is some of these registry types probably think lots of their high grade gems ae undergraded...so with the new policy they'll get bumped up...thereby knocking a crony or two down the ladder below them on the almighty registry. The $$$ for the service is nominal for the rush!

pete in mn

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Posted By: Steve

Do all T206 Cobb PSA 3's sell for the same price each time? Do all 33 Goudey Ruth PSA 8's sell for the same price each time? Of course not. High end cards for the grade have always sold for a premium and lower end examples sell for a discount. The hobby did not need a .5 on the holder to make that call. This is not going to change with a new half grade system and I doubt prices will reflect a significant change unless the registry folks buy into this process, which is what PSA is betting on.



BINGO!!

The market almost always rewarded hi end for the grade cards.


Steve

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

My economics are simple. I own about 400 PSA Graded Cards. If I can get them all regraded at the bulk rate of $6.00 (100 card min.) then the cost to me is $2400.00. I refuse to do this, hell I paid to have them graded once.
I'd rather use SGC (If I decide to keep grading cards) and their $5.00 Non-Sport grading special. I could give a rat's rear end about resale value. When my time comes I will be cremated with my collection providing the fuel for the fire.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Spoke to Joe for 30 minutes--made me an offer I couldn't refuse--intend on sending him 22,000 PSA 8s--couldn't be happier.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, is it true that you previously tried to stop PSA from going to the half grade system?

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Posted By: DJ

As a person who keeps being overlooked by the PSA Hall Of Fame Resgistry, I kind of expected more from Jim C. and his line of thinking, since he could shed some light into this new collecting world on the overall benefits for those who need to measure their collections. After that, then maybe I can expect this to be a record setting thread.

DJ

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- how does one ship 22,000 cards across country? That is like moving a couple of pianos. And can you share with us a little of your good fortune and tell us what is going on? And finally, might you be getting a little better deal than the average guy who doesn't have 22,000 cards to resubmit?

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Posted By: leon

Since you were ALL FOR discussing auction house pricing, and thought it should be very public, please do tell of the deal Joe gave you. I know I can speak for the rest of the board when I say I am overwhelmed at your happiness. best regards

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Posted By: Marc S.

I'm pretty confident that the deal is a private one that will not be divulged here. PSA, love them or hate them, is somewhat smart in how they approach their business model. I have no doubt in my mind that they lined up at least half a dozen to a dozen of their major collectors to sign on to the move before managing to proceed forward with the announcement.

That said, I imagine that the costs to Jim, or people like him, are deceptively minimal (probably on the order of $1 - $2 / per card), and I would also imagine that to ensure buy-in, there is some explicit understanding of a goal percentage of cards to get bumped. Deals like these will not be available to the general collecting public.

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Posted By: Eric B

I think Jim's point is that it's NOT an expense in the long-term since roughly 1/2 of his (or anybody's) cards will get a bump in grade and hence increase the value of his (or anybody's) collection.

But I'm not sure I agree with this. That would be saying that the total value of slabbed cards will automatically increase in value once they are regraded for 1/2 points. But that's not true. The entire value should be unchanged, similar to the value of a company that remains unchanged after a stock split.

I believe that cards that receive a bump in grade will increase in value to the detriment of cards that do not receive a bump in grade. And the gains will equal the losses.

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Posted By: Chuck Ross

Hmmm....just popping in from the nonsports side, I have to say this whole thread makes me a little sad. Having started collecting baseball cards back in the 60's when Bill Mastro was bringing his Wagner to shows in a grocery bag, collectors were friends, trust was built through mags like the Trader Speaks and egos were submerged because collections weren't on public display like show dogs, I hate to see that hobby transformed into a commodities market. But it is what it is.

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Posted By: leon

I hear ya....but when Jim says stuff like this:

"First, I am all for disclosing fees and think its great when people come on and talk to deals they are getting from auction houses"


I just figure he wants to help out collectors? BTW, since you are a registry guy what do you think about this move on PSA's part? Just curious....take care..

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

"I just figure he wants to help out collectors?"

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha

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Posted By: barrysloate

Marc- if it is true that certain elite customers will get an inordinate share of bumps, and that they will get special deals not available to the public, then this is not about grading cards. It's about who you know.

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Posted By: Marc S.

I was not suggesting an inordinate amount of bumps. I was rather suggesting that there may have been an explicit discussion that based upon a review submission of say, 22,000 cards, we generally would expect XX% to receive a bump.

Marc

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Posted By: Cobby33

It's obvious that PSA gives preferential treatment to "regulars."
To the average collector, this half-grade business means just about nothing and short of re-submitting cards, you can be hurt by it as much as (and probably more than) benefitting from it- given PSA's questionable competence in grading certain cards.

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Posted By: Anthony Stephenson

As those 22,000 cards careen across the country to PSA, they'll be crossing paths with an itty-bitty package containing this card (and a few others) heading out to the East Coast to SGC.

The whole notion that one can resubmit a card to PSA for a potential higher grade with no risk of the card being removed from the holder if it is deemed upon this second, and presumably closer, inspection to be altered renders the whole concept (conceit) of authentication null and void.





p.s. I borrowed Leon's quarter on the scan technique and personalized it a bit with cuff links. The "hangover" cuff link contains a hidden compartment to stash an aspirin in. Always got a kick out of that.

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Posted By: Marc S.

"I just figure he wants to help out collectors? BTW, since you are a registry guy what do you think about this move on PSA's part? Just curious....take care.."

Leon, I really do not think of myself as a Registry guy anymore.

I sold off my 1955 Bowman set in 2007.

I have publicly stated on numerous forums that I would never, EVER start another player Registry set. Although I do have a really nice Mike Schmidt collection, I really am not actively upgrading much, nore do I have much to do with that set...

I do have a few random team sets here and there. But 90% of my collecting focus in the past year has been on collecting interests of mine that fall outside of the Registry. I find that I have a SIGNIFICANTLY more fun time in this hobby communicating and trading with people than competing with others on a Registry.

As for my perspective of this move by PSA, I think they are doing it because they have significant revenue/profitability concerns. Furthermore, I think this decision will adversely affect valuation of the straight grades (the value of a PSA 8 will drop, and the value of a PSA 9 will also drop, albeit more slightly). I think we collectors in this hobby place an extraordinary amount of our collecting budget in the "services" provided by the grading companies and other experts. I think this move just shifts more of our budget away from collecting and more toward services...ultimately not creating any value for anyone. I am very happy about my current collecting foci, and am furthermore happy that I'm relatively less impacted by this move by PSA. We as collectors need to value consistency. And I find it hard to judge why it makes sense after 15 years of grading and millions upon millions of cards graded, to suddenly change the rules of the game.



Marc

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Posted By: Fred C

Anyone that thinks PSA did this to benefit collectors is either STUPID or REALLY STUPID. In advance, I'm sorry if you feel PSA did this for the hobby's benefit because I think I just called you stupid or really stupid.

If you thought pop reports are worthless now, just wait until they sucker the collectors into trying for a regrade.

The question should be whether or not to resubmit with the card in the holder or to remove it from the holder. I wouldn't crack it because if you get the card back with an AUT label because of some perceived "trim" job, then you've just screwed yourself. If I were going to resubmit (which I wouldn't waste my time with) I'd certainly leave it in the original holder so that they could screw me too badly.

PSA - Pretty Stupid Authenticators (it's not PLA so I can't use Pretty Lousy Authenticators)

Can we see some other good PSA definitions. Here's another:

PSA - Plastic Slab Addicts

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Posted By: Steve

Pretty Slick Accountants

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Marc, I agree with you. At one point I mostly collected high grade Registry sets and while the anal-retentive/obsessive-compulsive side of me enjoyed plugging in those holes with 8s I really hated having to spend big dollars on cards I knew I'd never look at. When I think of the common 8s I sold in order to buy a 1914 CJ Jackson, E102 Cobb, HM Taylor Cobb postcard, 1921 Herpolsheimer Cobb, etc. etc., I shudder to think that I could ever have valued the Registry commons.

For my few remaining high grade Registry sets I just have no interest in resubmitting them. If I sell them one day I might send in a few of the higher dollar cards because it would make sense. I hate the thought of being a victim of the Registry, i.e. addicted to it. I'm much happier spending big loot on rare Cobb cards.

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Posted By: Cobby33

"The whole notion that one can resubmit a card to PSA for a potential higher grade with no risk of the card being removed from the holder if it is deemed upon this second, and presumably closer, inspection to be altered renders the whole concept (conceit) of authentication null and void."

Absolutely. Are they really not breaking them out? Absurd.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Fred - a favorite amongst friends of mine -
"please stop authenticating"
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

This is a bad move and will cause me to become an ex-"Registry guy". The costs, as outlined now, would be prohibitive. $60 to review a $2000 card; $100 for a $5,000 card? And that's with no guarantee of anything being upgraded.

I'm out.

Frank

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Posted By: JimB

Agreed that they need a lower fee for simple grade review with no need to spend time authenticating or checking for alterations.
JimB


Generally, I like the idea of half grades. I hear the complaints, but I often think many people will gripe no matter what PSA does.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Are those the costs for a review? What kind of idiots do they think we are? They're treating Registry people as if we're crack addicts.

No matter what anyone says, this is not good for someone with Registry sets unless you submit your cards. If you do nothing you fall behind and your sets are devalued slightly. Therefore, if you're worried about value you have to resubmit. The value you'll get from the bump ups will most likely offset the submission costs (which is why they're so high I suspect). But eventually saturation will be reached and collectors will get turned off. Somehow I can't imagine some of the level-headed Registry guys rushing to fill in their 1/2 grade rejects with the 1/2 higher grade. Think how long that would take? Years? At some point people will just say FU to PSA.

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Posted By: Cy

Am I the only one who sees this differently? PSA is a company in business to make money. I am sure that they did some research to test if the half-grades will go over well. Their tests probably told them that they will do well with it. Now they are putting together a business decision to create revenue. Isn't that what a business is supposed to do? PSA didn't form to make us feel all cuddly and warm about our card collecting. They formed to make money and they feel that this decision will help to increase their revenues, pure and simple. In these times of a dire economy, if this works, wouldn't it be a good decision for PSA?

Sincerely,

Cy

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

22.000 cards submission are you kidding me. even at 2 dollars a card that is 44k! Man I WOULD BE OUTRAGAGED. PSA has lost all of my business trimmed altered redone cards in there holders and now this . They really must be desperate to keep the stock price up.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff--yes I did--about 3 1/2 yrs ago.

Barry--brinks truck? its an issue.

Fair to say--cannot disclose.

Leon,

First I gave Joe Orlando my word. If someone gave their word to an auction house I never advocated they break it--but if the auction house does not care then I do not see the harm in publicizing the percentage fee or giveback.

This would be easier for me if it never happened but I do not believe there is anything I can do to prevent it. My sense is all big collectors will go along if others are getting the type of deal I got from Joe.

The way I would calculate the economics is first estimate the percentage of the collection that would receive a bump to 8.5 or 9. Second, estimate the average increase in price coming from the bumps.
Subtract from this the decline in value of the cards that would not be bumped. Subtract grading fees. Based on this I would hope tghe value of my collection might increase well into six figures as a result of submitting 22,000 cards but I may be optimistic.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jim:

With all due respect, I am confused and I'm hoping you'll enlighten me. You're a friend, so please do not take this the wrong way. And I'm posting this on this board (as opposed to privately) because I think it would enlighten others of us here who may be wondering the same thing.

On multiple occasions, on this board and others, you have stated very clearly and unequivocally that you felt that PSA going to half grades was a very bad move, and that moving to half grades would be the only thing that would cause you to cross your collection to another grading company. You have started threads on this topic on the SGC and PSA message boards, and chimed in on several threads here, and your opinion was always the same.

I thought maybe I was crazy, so before I asked this question I looked it up. Sure enough, as recently as two months ago you made a post right on this board, indicating that you would have crossed your cards to Global if PSA had switched to half grades.

Here in this thread you state that you are in favor of the idea, that it is a smart move, and that you will be submitting your cards to PSA for review.

What has changed?

-Al

EDITED twice for clarity

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

I'm really having "NEW Coke" flashbacks just thinking about this PSA decision.

I am for any company making money, just don't try to sugar coat it with a bunch of feel-good platitudes about helping the collector or other such nonsense.

The "same grade" guarantee is bogus. They should re-holder the newly reviewed card with either a new flip marked 5.0 or whatever or a simple color or style change to the flip to keep a previously reviewed card from being submitted over and over again. By refusing to admit that a card has been reviewed and not bumped with no change to the flip or holder, PSA presents themselves as money grubbing hucksters with no credibility.

Oh well...you can only vote with your wallet. I rarely use PSA and my membership just lapsed this past week. Glad this came along now as it made my decision to NOT renew even easier. I've basically been only buying SGC anyway.

Best of luck to everyone in their new half-life.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

I wonder if Joe O specifically told Jim that trimmed and altered cards in his collection that appeared nicer than the grade were eligible for the half grade kiss? If not then Kevin S will be getting on a plane to NJ shortly to assist Jim in the arduous task of separating the altered graded cards from the 22,000 holders.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Al,

For a "friend" you sure don't act like it all the time but to answer your question what changed is the deal I got--I never dreamed I would get the kind of deal Joe gave me.