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  #1  
Old 12-14-2006, 08:35 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Scott L

I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question but does anyone know what trophy he is holding in this picture?


Is it what used to be the World Series Trophy?

Also, why do his cards carry a premium, he's not a HOF'er right?

New to collecting the set and just curious.

Regards,

Scott

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  #2  
Old 12-14-2006, 08:50 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: MVSNYC

ah, prince hal...

he would be in the HOF, if he didn't get banned from baseball from commishiner Landis...he was known to "throw" a game here and there. arguably, one of the best 1st baseman of all time, certainly one of the best of his era...he is the only player in the T206 set with 5 cards!

...as for the trophy, not sure, maybe someone else can answer that.


he always commands a premium...not a stupid question at all...it is a relief to talk about something as cool as hal chase & his T206 cards vs. some of the recent politically charged posts...

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Chase_Hal.stm


edited to try to get the link correct




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  #3  
Old 12-14-2006, 08:50 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Scott,

Chase was realistically one of the most skilled base ballists of his day. Fans almost universally adored him. His problem was that he would throw games for money. He'd miss a throw at first, fail to hold onto a ball that bounced in the dirt, go 3 for 5 on a day he tried, and 1 for 5 with a hit that didn't count for anything on a day he was going down. He was a great hitter and fielder, but he at one time held the AL record for most errors lifetime by a first baseman. I think he ended pro ball when he was banned from the PCL, but I should look that up. He has more different poses than anyone else in T206, due to his popularity of the day. He played with the Highlanders, and I think his trophy was presented to him by his team-mates... he had broken his Highlanders contract, holding out for more money, and played in California under an alias until he was "found", then he was suspended, then rejoined the Highlanders, team-mates were so happy for his return that they gave him a silver cup. I'm sure some of the other guys will fine tune what I've said here. This is from recollection, I should have looked at my Hal Chase book to answer better.

T206 subjects primarily come from players of note from 1905 through 1908. Chase was a star then. Sometimes, if you look at some obscure T206 player and wonder why he's in a 1909 - 1911 bunch of cards, the answer can be found in what the guy did in 1906 or 1908.

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  #4  
Old 12-14-2006, 09:08 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Scott L

In light of recent "discussions" THAT'S WHY THIS BOARD IS AWESOME!

Unbelievably cool info, thanks gentlemen. I had no idea Hal was on the take, played under an alias or was banned by KML. I didn't know he was that good either. Too cool.

There's a book about him? What's it called? Might be a good read. It would be neat to see a newspaper clipping from the day discussing his banishment.

Thanks again guys, very interesting stuff.

Best.

Scott

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  #5  
Old 12-14-2006, 09:18 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Scott L

Among the most unsavory characters in the history of the game, Chase was an oddly charismatic star. He was considered by contemporary observers to be the best-fielding first baseman ever, but he repeatedly threw games for the quick money he could make betting against his own team, and he was eventually banned for life.

He led his league's first basemen in errors seven times, but only in 1911, as a playing manager, did he lead in any positive fielding categories (putouts and assists, but also errors once again). He holds the AL career first baseman's mark for errors (285). On September 21, 1906, he tied the ML record for putouts by a first baseman in a nine-inning game with 22; two other times he had 21.

The venal gate attraction jumped the Highlanders (later the Yankees) after the 1907 season, demanding a $4,000 salary. Management gave in to him, but he jumped anyway, playing for San Jose (California League) under an assumed name. He was suspended, then reinstated; when he returned to New York, his teammates presented the redhead with a silver loving cup. In 1910 manager George Stallings accused Chase of throwing games. Chase beat the charge and then used his popularity to take over the managerial post himself at the end of the season. In his first full year at the helm, the team dropped from second place (88-63) to sixth (76-76). Traded to the White Sox in June 1913 after his lackadaisical play became blatant, he jumped to the Federal League a year later. Playing in a small park, he hit an atypical 17 HR (his previous high was four) to lead the league in 1915. This made him much sought-after when the FL folded, and he was signed by the Reds. He led the NL in batting in 1916 with a career-high .339. He hit .300 four times, but usually with very few walks. He did steal as many as 40 bases (1910), and he finished his career with 363 steals. However, Chase never scored more than 85 runs or drove in more than 89, both highs coming in 1915.

In 1918, playing under the scrupulously honest Christy Mathewson, Chase was suspended for throwing games. He was initially cleared by an establishment eager to disbelieve Chase's accusers, but the charge was later proven. John McGraw of the Giants, always sure of his ability to reform the wayward, tried Chase in 1919, but by the end of the season wouldn't play him. Chase was implicated in the Black Sox scandal when the World Series was thrown at the end of the season, and thereafter he was persona non grata.

Does anyone know how he was implicated in the Black Sox scandal if he wasn't on the team? I wonder if he helped make arrangements between the ring leaders and the players. Maybe he coached the players on how to throw a game without making it look obvious (although it doesn't sound like he was too good at that)!

Neat stuff.

P.S. I have to get me one of them Pink Portraits, awesome card.

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  #6  
Old 12-14-2006, 09:52 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The Black Prince of Baseball: Hal Chase and the Mythology of the Game, by Donald Dewey and Nicholas Acocella... look at www.abebooks.com or, A Prince at First, The Fictional Autobiography of Baseball's Hal Chase, by Ed Dinger.


And a REALLY good way to get a grip on the Blacksox thing is to read Rothstein: The Life, Times, and Murder of the Criminal Genius Who Fixed The 1919 World Series by David Pietrusza. It is really good. You have to slow down and not have phone calls or family talking to you while you get through the fix. The idea is that Rothstein, not wanting to take a chance on his fix falling through, had two separate fixes going on at the same time... this is one fine book. Abe Atell, Sleepy Burns (in T206), Jean Dubuc (also in T206) and Hal Chase are in the book. Chase knew most players in the game, knew who to talk to, attended meetings... This is a 2003 book that gets way beyond what is in Asinof's Eight Men Out. Highly recommended if you're digging as far as one can go into the Black Sox mess 80 plus years later.

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  #7  
Old 12-15-2006, 04:44 AM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

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  #8  
Old 12-15-2006, 05:04 AM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: John S

The coloration of the baseball in Chase's hand in the dark cap pose reaffirms the standard condition of baseballs used during that era.

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  #9  
Old 12-15-2006, 09:03 AM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Scot Reader

It's a "loving cup" (as Scott said above).

Anybody know where the cup is now?

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  #10  
Old 12-15-2006, 09:42 AM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: T206Collector

From the fictional autobiography "A Prince At First" by Ed Dinger:

"When the newspapers announced that I was finally strong enough to play, you better believe that town was excited. At home plate before my first at bat, I was presented with a silver-plated loving cup. I had to smile. A loving cup for me! The fans rose to their feet to cheer the Prince. To welcome him back. All is forgiven! Even my teammates and the clucks on the other side stood to applaud. To oblige them I raised the cup over my head and presented it from one foul pole to the other. Look at the goddamn cattle, I thought. Look at them all."

http://www.amazon.com/Prince-1st-Fictional-Autobiography-Baseballs/dp/0786413301/sr=8-7/qid=1159809313/ref=sr_1_7/104-3467459-6117550?ie=UTF8&s=books

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  #11  
Old 12-15-2006, 10:03 AM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: steve f

Terrific book about a real POS. Highly recommended

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  #12  
Old 12-15-2006, 04:17 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Scott L

Guys
Thanks for all the information. I'm definitely going to read one of the books you suggested.

To oblige them I raised the cup over my head and presented it from one foul pole to the other. Look at the goddamn cattle, I thought. Look at them all."

Priceless!

PS Jeff your two cards are stunning. Congrats.

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  #13  
Old 03-10-2007, 01:59 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Joe D.

I stumbled across Honus Wagner's 1907 Trophy presented to him by the National League (and then dug up this few-month-old thread).

The trophy looks very similar to the one that Hal Chase holds in his T206.

http://www.sportscardsplus.com/html/auctions/0803auction.htm

Could the American League have followed suit and presented a similar trophy to their Prince Hal?

C'mon someone find this trophy!

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  #14  
Old 03-11-2007, 09:21 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Allen Miller

The Wagner cup was a great piece of mem and one of my favorite pieces we've handled at SCP. It was actually made by Tiffany & Co. The circumstances around the presentation were great as well as Honus had no idea he was going to receive the cup when he was summoned to NYC. I can post the entire story behind the Wagner Loving cup when I get in to the office on Monday if anyone would care to read it.

But, yes, someone needs to find Prince Hal's cup!

Allen - SCP

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  #15  
Old 03-11-2007, 10:09 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Mark L

Allen,
if it's not too much trouble I'd really like to see the story.

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  #16  
Old 03-13-2007, 11:50 AM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Allen Miller



Figured I'd just post a scan instead of typing it all out.

Allen Miller
SCP

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  #17  
Old 03-13-2007, 11:56 AM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: leon

Thanks a lot for posting the article...and thanks too for pushing your company to be a banner ad sponsor.....You guys do a great job and some of my best cards have come from SCP.....My Lone Jack Comisky and T207 Red Cross Weaver to name a few......best regards and good luck in the future....

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  #18  
Old 03-20-2007, 04:42 PM
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Default T206 Hal Chase Question

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Allen,

Thanks for posting the 'cup' page.


Frank W.

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