NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post. Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 09-16-2018, 05:01 PM
SAllen2556's Avatar
SAllen2556 SAllen2556 is offline
Scott
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Detroit
Posts: 354
Default

Significant? I'm not enough of a baseball historian to know. But I did find this photo in the Detroit Free Press from this supposedly well known 1912 incident:

Another major controversy in Cobb's career occurred in 1912, and this led to the first players' strike. During a game in New York on May 15 of that year, Cobb was subjected to vicious and unrelenting heckling from the fans, especially a disabled man named Claude Lueker, who for several years had made sport of heckling Cobb whenever the Tigers visited Hilltop Park. Finally, unable to stand the abuse and urged on by his teammates, Cobb went into the stands and attacked Lueker, who had lost one hand and most of the other in a printing press accident. When he was informed of the incident, Ban Johnson suspended Cobb indefinitely. Despite their dislike for Cobb, his teammates were outraged, and announced that they would not play again until Cobb was reinstated. After a one-game farce in which the Tigers fielded a team of semipro players, the matter was resolved when Cobb's suspension was reduced to ten days.

Detroit_Free_Press_Mon__May_20__1912_.jpg
Detroit_Free_Press_Mon__May_20__1912_ copy.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-16-2018, 05:16 PM
sphere and ash sphere and ash is offline
P@u1 R31fer$0n
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 156
Default

The Lueker incident is a great case in point. Thank you for the newspaper image.

What strikes me is that Lueker was attacked on May 15; the newspaper image is five days later. Why didn’t anyone capture Cobb beating Lueker? Where was Charles Conlon that day at Hilltop? Where were others?

My “challenge” still stands.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-16-2018, 05:28 PM
Dewey's Avatar
Dewey Dewey is offline
Br377 D3w3y
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: El Lay
Posts: 605
Default

I respectfully disagree. The players' strike is more significant and newsworthy than Cobb laying the smackdown on a fan.
__________________
42 Collection: Jackie Robinson, Branch Rickey and the People Who Shaped the Story https://www.flickr.com/photos/158992...57668696860149
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-16-2018, 07:52 PM
prewarsports prewarsports is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,333
Default

Do the 3000 hit milestones and 300 win milestones not count toward the challenge? These were predictable events after 1920 and still no photographers.

I believe the answer is three-part.

1. Nobody really cared a whole lot. It was not until the advent of the radio photo or the wire photo in the late 1920's through the mid 1930's that spot photography or needing shots of an actual event became vogue. Up until this moment, a stock photo would work for nearly any event and public demand for a photographer on hand at every event did not drive the newspapers to be there in case something happened. It was supply and demand and there were stock photos on hand of pretty much every player (supply) and the public did not cry for images of actual events (no demand).

2. Even major newspapers would only have a handful of guys on staff taking pictures so there was absolutely no way to cover every sporting event. Often they would show up for the START of a game, take a few shots and hurry back to their offices to develop the images and make the evening edition. Getting photos of the event was paramount to being there in case something happened later in the game. Every city with a team was big enough to have competing newspapers and that meant an evening edition with deadlines. This is why essentially every major sporting event has pre-game images and almost no surviving images of the aftermath unless they were taken by amateurs. This method survived until wire photos became standard.

3. Major innovations took place in the 1920's to the quality and portability of cameras which is why as the decade wore on, the genre of "photo-journalism" really came into its own. The desire for better photographs was a byproduct of technology and not the other way around. The public did not know they wanted images of actual events until they started to become available, then the desire drove innovation to the advent of the wire photo.

It was a different world and the thought of a photographer sticking around for an entire game just in case something important happened was not important. It was a 9-5 job to these guys and they wanted to get the shot and get home to their families just like the rest of us.
__________________
Be sure to check out my site www.RMYAuctions.com
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-16-2018, 09:31 PM
sphere and ash sphere and ash is offline
P@u1 R31fer$0n
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 156
Default

Rhys—you can tell you’ve looked at a few hundred thousand images.

I agree with everything you say in paragraphs (1) and (2): it really wasn’t until October 1920 that newspapers felt they needed photographs of play-by-play to connect with their readers. And most newspaper photo departments were inadequately staffed (this is what had created the opening for the Bain and Thompson agencies). Even when photographers were at a game, they often photographed the first play or first few innings and then went to hand in their negatives for the evening edition.

I disagree with what you say in paragraph (3). The pivotal innovation in camera design in 1920 wasn’t making cameras more portable, but less so; making them extremely large by increasing the focal length so they could photograph action at second base. This is what allowed Wambsganss to be photographed.

I didn’t mean to diminish the idea that 3,000 hit milestones in the 1920s and 1930’s weren’t photographed; you yourself recognized in a previous post that such milestones weren’t celebrated at the time and didn’t become newsworthy until many years later.

Dewey—your point is well taken. It had never occurred to me that someone might think the walkout was historically significant, so I didn’t give it enough thought. I don’t think it would appear on anyone’s list of “100 Classic Baseball Moments,” but others may disagree. I do think the Lueker incident is more interesting, certainly photographically. Had I been a photo editor at the New York Evening Telegram, I would have loved for Conlon to bring back an image of Cobb stomping Lueker.

Last edited by sphere and ash; 10-01-2018 at 03:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-17-2018, 01:56 PM
TCMA's Avatar
TCMA TCMA is offline
Andrew Aronstein
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 662
Default

In terms of pre-1920 historically significant moments, the closest we may come are the posed shots of Opening Day festivities, World Series opposing players and managers shaking hands, Chalmers Award (MVP) presentations, Honey Boy Evans trophy (highest BA) presentations, etc.

Images of these moments differentiate themselves from the standard portrait or full body news service photo because we can easily pinpoint specifics. For example, here's a shot from the HOF website of Eddie Collins receiving the 1914 AL Chalmers Award in Philly before the 1914 World Series. I spy 5 HOFers between the two teams, though there were more present:

https://baseballhall.org/discover/in...-award-is-born



And here's Honus Wagner receiving his Honey Boy Evans trophy in 1909. BTW, the HOF website notes that the trophy was presented in Pittsburgh, which is incorrect, it was presented in NY - which reminds me I've been meaning to get in touch with them on that:

__________________
Visit TCMA Ltd. on Facebook!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-17-2018, 02:02 PM
TCMA's Avatar
TCMA TCMA is offline
Andrew Aronstein
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Peekskill, NY
Posts: 662
Default

John McGraw and Pants Rowland before the 1917 World Series, with Bill Klem:

__________________
Visit TCMA Ltd. on Facebook!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-17-2018, 05:41 PM
prewarsports prewarsports is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,333
Default

As to my point number (3), the Leica I became available to photographers in 1924-1925 and was the number one innovation in portable photography ever. It made high quality images available via 35mm film. I believe this innovation and those that followed led to many of the more "historical moments" being photographed as cameras overnight went from large clunky devices to something you could fit in your coat pocket, stay for the whole game, and still make the evening papers. Just my opinion.
__________________
Be sure to check out my site www.RMYAuctions.com
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-17-2018, 05:43 PM
prewarsports prewarsports is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,333
Default

Again, the examples being shown are awesome but ALL Pre-Game images to my point above. Photographers basically did not stay for the actual games which is why the famous moments were not photographed. Many of these early photographers by all accounts were not even sports fans, they just saw business opportunities or were assigned to events by the paper. They might shoot the World Series one day and then not do another sporting event for weeks and cover local beauty pageants and politics (where they would also show up, take a few shots and get home for dinner).
__________________
Be sure to check out my site www.RMYAuctions.com
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:20 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 5,008
Default

I was doing some looking to see if I could find out about film speeds historically. I didn't find any clear answer, but most of the older films were pretty slow. Perhaps too slow to capture action shots reliably on all but the brightest days.


The point about not having the same resources as later photographers was the one I was trying to make with my 1970's example. There's a big difference in ability to capture a lot of a game between the 1920's press cameras with individual 4x5 negatives. a slightly later 35mm camera with a 24 or 36 exposure roll, and the 70's example of a 3000 exposure roll and the ability to push a button and take 2 frames a second. (Or today, where If I was doing it I'd probably just run HD video and screen capture what I wanted. )
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Online Photography Identification Course drcy Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 5 11-02-2014 05:34 PM
WTB: A Portrait of Baseball Photography ibuysportsephemera Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 9 07-22-2013 04:00 PM
Sports photography question billyb Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 36 06-06-2013 06:57 PM
OT: Photography Help ibuysportsephemera Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 13 09-06-2012 09:05 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:39 AM.


ebay GSB