SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by steve B

... I'd use PSA if they didn't have a silly cover charge. Pay me so you get the right to pay me ......for me that's pretty much a non starter.

Steve B

PSA hasn't required a membership to submit cards for grading in a long time. Yet, about once every six months or so, someone complains that they do.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I strongly suspect that, for both grading services, high volume submitters tend to get better grades.

I wouldn't rule it out, but as a very low volume submitter I've received a few grades I thought were low, and a few that were at least mildly generous. Most have been accurate including a couple I thought were low that I asked about in person and the guy I asked very quickly found the small flaws I'd missed.

To some extent I think it may come down to experience If I submit say 1000 cards a month and take time to actually look at which ones didn't do as well as I'd thought I would eventually get better at removing those.

And from the opposite end, if a submitter has sent in say 750 cards that are certain 8s and 200 7s and 50 that Might be 8s or maybe 9s .......Maybe track record carries some weight. It shouldn't, but with nearly all people it will. Think of it like the veteran batter with a rep for not going after bad pitches. He'll get the benefit of a smaller strike zone. The same with a pitcher known for great control. He might get strikes on pitches off the plate.

I'd imagine there's similar stuff in all fields, in law are the guys who nearly always pick profitable winning cases given more leeway in which ones they decide to take?
I know if I say a bicycle thing can be fixed hardly anyone even questions it anymore. They may not want to pay the price, but the know it can be fixed.

Steve B

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I strongly suspect that, for both grading services, high volume submitters tend to get better grades.

For Sure!

[chipperhank44]

Originally Posted by rocarroll

Piggy backing on what I said earlier about it being a "self fulfilling prophecy" I really do think it is a heard mentality. People think PSA is better cause that's what other people are telling them.........In short its a reputation that has no real gold backing the currency so to speak. People just think its better.

If an industry wide rumor started next week that SGC was better within a month you would see the pricing reverse.

The above truth can be directly applied to the comment below

Originally Posted by callou2131

I would love to send a T206 to BGS just to see the confusion on the graders face

[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I wouldn't doubt it in the slightest. I feel like Polar Bears have always gotten a little bit of leeway.

I've done cross overs on two dozen SGC 60 graded Polar Bears over to PSA and have only had three of them come back PSA 5. One came back PSA 4.5, some were 4s, one a 3.5, and four as trimmed (a separate topic for another day!). Just my two cent observation on the topic of Polar Bears. SGC graded Polar Bears like the link to the Cobb seem to be extremely poor candidates for a flip.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

I've done cross overs on two dozen SGC 60 graded Polar Bears over to PSA and have only had three of them come back PSA 5. One came back PSA 4.5, some were 4s, one a 3.5, and four as trimmed (a separate topic for another day!). Just my two cent observation on the topic of Polar Bears. SGC graded Polar Bears like the link to the Cobb seem to be extremely poor candidates for a flip.

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, does it?

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

were those true cross overs or did you crack them first?

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLA...item54190aa31e

Peter, you may be correct. However, give this card sharper corners plus a crease, and it gets a "5" every day from PSA, IMHO.
Val

[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

were those true cross overs or did you crack them first?

Half and half. After the trims came back I have started true cross overs, and no more cracking on Polar Bears.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

I've done cross overs on two dozen SGC 60 graded Polar Bears over to PSA and have only had three of them come back PSA 5. One came back PSA 4.5, some were 4s, one a 3.5, and four as trimmed (a separate topic for another day!). Just my two cent observation on the topic of Polar Bears. SGC graded Polar Bears like the link to the Cobb seem to be extremely poor candidates for a flip.

Doesn't everyone know that you can't flip a polar bear, ................... unless the polar bear wants to flip.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video...t=mozilla&tt=b

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

Half and half. After the trims came back I have started true cross overs, and no more cracking on Polar Bears.

So Luke what do you have available for trims ???

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Most of my 5s and the ones I have seen look much more like this, if not better.

Peter - Here is my most recent purchase for comparison to yours:

I think mine looks a bit better, though I'm not sure it would be a 6 (although the back is very nice! )

I think the dark background of the SGC case also has an influence.

I got mine for the PSA SMR price (which I use as a baseline when researching how much I should pay - I also sometimes get emotional and buy the card anyway lol )

WALTER JOHNSON T206 Portrait SGC 60 EX.jpg

09WJ.jpg

[Steve_NY]

What scares me more than anything else is that a collector will pay $1,000s of dollars for a perfect 10 common card worth probably about $5 - $10 just because it is graded by a human being as a perfect 10.

But don't get me wrong; grading has made me a lot of money, not because I graded cards, but because I have never graded cards. Dealers and collectors continue to buy my ungraded cards and always say, "why don't you have them graded yourself?"

Maybe I am a leftover from another generation, but if and when this "trend" has its peak, I will still be there (assuming I live that long) to keep all of my customers happy.

But if you still want to buy ungraded cards and get them graded on your own, see me at this year's National at booth 1110P, 6 booths in the door.

By the way, I have also enjoyed the past several months of posts. I am busy for most of the year on a huge project for the #1 business publication in the world, but when I get free, your knowledge and ability to share those details freely is unsurpassed. Thank you all!!! Stop by and say hello.

Steve Sabow DynamicTwo@aol.com

[LKeeler]

[QUOTE=frankbmd;1433265]Doesn't everyone know that you can't flip a polar bear, ................... unless the polar bear wants to flip.

Haha, Frank. That is awesome.

[clydepepper]

[QUOTE=LKeeler;1433292]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Doesn't everyone know that you can't flip a polar bear, ................... unless the polar bear wants to flip.

Haha. Awesome.

A polar bear once asked me for a Coca-Cola but I flipped him off.

Does that count?
.
.

[The Nasty Nati]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I agree with everything you said.....plus I wonder how market share is with the 25-45 year olds..who will be defining the buying market the next 20 years..i assuming psa is getting a bigger market share ...

I'm 29 and I can say no joke probably 90% of collectors in my age group collect either Beckett or PSA graded cards. You could even argue many have never heard of SGC. When you're getting back into collecting you generally like to collect cards you always wanted as a kid. Most of those cards are graded in PSA as my age group idolized stars from the 80s (if you're 30-45 years old probably 1970s players). From there you build loyalty to PSA especially because of the registry. Registry is so key. For teens they are collecting the modern players, and because modern card collecting is all about autograph cards, Beckett is very popular with teens today. SGC is totally nonexistent to them.

Also, a popular thing to do is to show your PSA submission mail returns on YouTube. You almost never see SGC videos online. People on this forum should post more SGC submission return videos to gain more interest in SGC for the younger crowd...it's all about social media these days.

Personally I collect SGC graded cards as I love the look of them with the T206s and for the simple fact that they are cheaper to submit and buy. That being said if I had to do it over again I would probably go with PSA as the registry is much stronger and like others have said, sell for more.

[ullmandds]

PSA's advantage is in the registry...and the marketing...which create a "perception" as has been stated. They most certainly do NOT offer a superior product to the other TPG'ers.

[packs]

In all honesty, if this is seriously a problem for someone, it's a problem you've created yourself by playing this game in the first place. Unless people start ponying up an extra few hundo for a PSA 1 or SGC 40, this is something that will never affect me.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by packs

In all honesty, if this is seriously a problem for someone, it's a problem you've created yourself by playing this game in the first place. Unless people start ponying up an extra few hundo for a PSA 1 or SGC 40, this is something that will never affect me.

+1 for me too!

[the 'stache]

I'm still trying to get past the "Clayton Kershaw is overhyped" comment, myself.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'm still trying to get past the "Clayton Kershaw is overhyped" comment, myself.

I think that post was limited to Kershaw's far less than stellar playoff performance to date, Bill.

Highest regards,

Larry

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

I think that post was limited to Kershaw's far less than stellar playoff performance to date, Bill.

Highest regards,

Larry

Hi Larry,

I thought about that, but the comparison was made that Kershaw was over-hyped, while Sale just dominates. Sale has never even pitched in the post season, so that would be an odd comparison, to me. Kershaw has been a very mixed bag in post season baseball, absolutely. There have been a few times he was quite good. But taken as a whole, he's been awful.

But to suggest that Kershaw is over-hyped because he plays in Los Angeles, while Sale somehow flies under the radar because he plays in Chicago, is silly, imho. Some of the most hyped athletes in American sports history-Michael Jordan, Gale Sayers, Walter Payton, to name a few, have played their entire careers in Chicago (well, Jordan played two in Washington after being retired three years). That's not to question their greatness (or that of Chris Sale), but Kershaw has won three Cy Young Awards in four years (and was runner-up the other). He's been simply spectacular.

Since 1960, there have been 634 pitchers to throw 1,000 or more innings. Only Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm (relievers) and Pedro Martinez have a higher ERA + in that time than Kershaw's 150. And since the start of the 2011 season, nearly five full seasons, his ERA + has been 167. That includes a record of 79-32 (.718 win pct), a 2.18 ERA, 1,122 Ks in 1,026.1 IP. His WHIP is a silly 0.951. He's led the National League in ERA and WHIP each of the last four years.

That's not hype, it's greatness. That 167 ERA + matches identically the same figure Sandy Koufax had in his last five seasons.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Hi Larry,

I thought about that, but the comparison was made that Kershaw was over-hyped, while Sale just dominates. Sale has never even pitched in the post season, so that would be an odd comparison, to me. Kershaw has been a very mixed bag in post season baseball, absolutely. There have been a few times he was quite good. But taken as a whole, he's been awful.

But to suggest that Kershaw is over-hyped because he plays in Los Angeles, while Sale somehow flies under the radar because he plays in Chicago, is silly, imho. Some of the most hyped athletes in American sports history-Michael Jordan, Gale Sayers, Walter Payton, to name a few, have played their entire careers in Chicago (well, Jordan played two in Washington after being retired three years). That's not to question their greatness (or that of Chris Sale), but Kershaw has won three Cy Young Awards in four years (and was runner-up the other). He's been simply spectacular.

Since 1960, there have been 634 pitchers to throw 1,000 or more innings. Only Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm (relievers) and Pedro Martinez have a higher ERA + in that time than Kershaw's 150. And since the start of the 2011 season, nearly five full seasons, his ERA + has been 167. That includes a record of 79-32 (.718 win pct), a 2.18 ERA, 1,122 Ks in 1,026.1 IP. His WHIP is a silly 0.951. He's led the National League in ERA and WHIP each of the last four years.

That's not hype, it's greatness. That 167 ERA + matches identically the same figure Sandy Koufax had in his last five seasons.

And they both begin with K

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill all true, but when you get shelled in the playoffs it undercuts a lot of that in people's minds. Look at pre-roid confession ARod, whose legacy was already banged up from not performing in the post-season. Or, for much of his career, Bonds.

[RGold]

Imdee.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

And they both begin with K

I'm just really enjoying the fact that all three (Koufax, Kershaw, & Sale) are left-handed!!
.
.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Why are SGC cards losing value? Sale price really means nothing if you do not account for purchase price.

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

Kevin you should've been a lawyer!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Kershaw is the man...

I still thinks its cheesy for relievers to be in the Hall of Fame....Kershaw could of been great closer....so would Nolan ryan for example ..but would Rivera on the Yankees be a good starting pitcher.... Rivera is considered one of the best closers and he pitched like 1200 innings...Didn't Nolan ryan pitch that amount in like 7 years? Why does Nolan Ryan have to pitch another 15 years or so to prove his worth and pitch 5000+ innings....while rivera only has to pitch 1200

basially back to Kershaw....the fact hes a Starting Pitcher makes him more the man!

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Kevin you should've been a lawyer!

I guess I should have said, looks narrow to me, however, despite the grade..

[Sophiedog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

I agree 100%
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Pied...p2047675.l2557

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I'm just really enjoying the fact that all three (Koufax, Kershaw, & Sale) are left-handed!!.

it's scary, very scary

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Sophiedog

I agree 100%
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Pied...p2047675.l2557

That's one of my favorite cards in the set, and a beautiful example.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Kershaw is the man...

I still thinks its cheesy for relievers to be in the Hall of Fame....Kershaw could of been great closer....so would Nolan ryan for example ..but would Rivera on the Yankees be a good starting pitcher.... Rivera is considered one of the best closers and he pitched like 1200 innings...Didn't Nolan ryan pitch that amount in like 7 years? Why does Nolan Ryan have to pitch another 15 years or so to prove his worth and pitch 5000+ innings....while rivera only has to pitch 1200

basially back to Kershaw....the fact hes a Starting Pitcher makes him more the man!

Apples and oranges. A closer has a much narrower margin of error than a starter, as the game is usually on the line and a mistake is potentially much more costly. You can't just give up a run or two, settle into your rhythm and wait for your team to catch up. Great starters would not necessarily make great relievers. Rivera's worth for most of his career was unfathomable.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Apples and oranges. A closer has a much narrower margin of error than a starter, as the game is usually on the line and a mistake is potentially much more costly. You can't just give up a run or two, settle into your rhythm and wait for your team to catch up. Great starters would not necessarily make great relievers. Rivera's worth for most of his career was unfathomable.

still 1200 is a small sample size in terms of innings versus 5000 innings.....plus the set up man many times gets the real 'save' ie. faces the 3rd 4th and 5th hitters..while the closer gets the bottom of the order and a 4th OF bat for the pitcher......the SP face the whole lineup several times... closers are worth a lot I agree..but not as much as stud pitchers....the best SP ever is way over the league of whoever the best closer is ever....

you can agree that more great SPs can be closers than great RPs to be SPs...... Smoltz and Eckersley both SPs who later became elite closers....not any elite (ie HOF type )SPs that used to be closers?


and again..6000 innings for a SP to make the HOF and only 1200 for a relief pitcher? So whats next...a pinch hitter with 2000 clutch ABs. versus someone with 10000 abs?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Sophiedog

I agree 100%
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-Pied...p2047675.l2557

With the staining on the back from scrapbook glue I'd say that's a weak 7. A nice card, but I don't think it should get a 7. (Of course, if it was PSA it would be 7ST )

Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

still 1200 is a small sample size in terms of innings versus 5000 innings.....plus the set up man many times gets the real 'save' ie. faces the 3rd 4th and 5th hitters..while the closer gets the bottom of the order and a 4th OF bat for the pitcher......the SP face the whole lineup several times... closers are worth a lot I agree..but not as much as stud pitchers....the best SP ever is way over the league of whoever the best closer is ever....

you can agree that more great SPs can be closers than great RPs to be SPs...... Smoltz and Eckersley both SPs who later became elite closers....not any elite (ie HOF type )SPs that used to be closers?


and again..6000 innings for a SP to make the HOF and only 1200 for a relief pitcher? So whats next...a pinch hitter with 2000 clutch ABs. versus someone with 10000 abs?

Not HOFers, but RA Dickey, Kenny Rogers, Charlie Hough were pretty good starters who originally were relievers.

[darwinbulldog]

Punishing relievers for only pitching 1200 innings is like punishing pitchers for only playing 500 games.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

PSA hasn't required a membership to submit cards for grading in a long time. Yet, about once every six months or so, someone complains that they do.

Interesting.

They sure do hide that fact. Not a surprise since the club membership must be a good money maker.

I was just looking at the site, and it's a bit hard to find stuff. Kinda cluttered. Finally found the specials and they're not all that great this month. Nice price, but 25 card minimum and they need to be under $100 value . I think I've maybe done 30 -40 cards over several years. So while I can send in, it would be at the $17 rate which is a lot more than the $10 regular fee at SGC (whose specials this month are more than PSAs specials but with more value allowed and no minimum quantity. )

If I had a loads of modernish cards where the price difference would be worth it, I might join.
But for what I do SGC makes it really easy.

Steve B

[rats60]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

I would be more concerned with the looks narrow than the price falling between a psa 7 and 6, which is where I would expect it to sell. I think more people are buying cards and not holders. I pass on cards in the grade I want all the time because I don't like the card.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by steve B

Interesting.

They sure do hide that fact. Not a surprise since the club membership must be a good money maker.

I was just looking at the site, and it's a bit hard to find stuff. Kinda cluttered. Finally found the specials and they're not all that great this month. Nice price, but 25 card minimum and they need to be under $100 value . I think I've maybe done 30 -40 cards over several years. So while I can send in, it would be at the $17 rate which is a lot more than the $10 regular fee at SGC (whose specials this month are more than PSAs specials but with more value allowed and no minimum quantity. )

If I had a loads of modernish cards where the price difference would be worth it, I might join.
But for what I do SGC makes it really easy.

Steve B

That's right. You don't need a PSA membership to submit to PSA. However, if you want to use their specials, then you do need the membership. I've always found the membership worthwhile because for the Platinum membership, it averages out to ~$17 per card which is about the same for that declared value when there is a special on it. And you also receive a year's subscription to the SMR magazine and the free gift. The current free gift is just a t-shirt, which isn't anything special, but in the past, I've gotten the Cracker Jack and T206 books, which are nice coffee table items.

I do admit this month's SGC $10 special for cards under $500 is especially good. However, PSA's special for cards under $100 are pretty decent also. It's pretty rare for the specials to break $6 these days, and 25 cards minimum isn't bad. (In comparison, this month's Beckett special is $7 per card, and you need to submit 100 cards minimum. Of course, Beckett does not have a declared value maximum for their specials. That's still a lot of cards, however.)

I thought that the ST qualifier for PSA was only for wax stains and not for other types of stains. I could be wrong, however.

[e107collector]

Does anyone know that if I joined the PSA collector's club, am I able to use my (6) free grading vouchers all for crossover reviews? Each of the cards are in the less than $499 declared value category.

Any info is appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony

[glchen]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Does anyone know that if I joined the PSA collector's club, am I able to use my (6) free grading vouchers all for crossover reviews? Each of the cards are in the less than $499 declared value category.

Any info is appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony

Yes, you can. I believe the only caveat is that they must all be crossovers, however. That is, you can't put a PSA card in this submission for a review also along with SGC, Beckett cards. They *may* also need to be the same size, e.g., no mixing of postcard sized cards with standard size ones. However, I think they are somewhat lenient here when using the voucher.

[e107collector]

Originally Posted by glchen

Yes, you can. I believe the only caveat is that they must all be crossovers, however. That is, you can't put a PSA card in this submission for a review also along with SGC, Beckett cards. They *may* also need to be the same size, e.g., no mixing of postcard sized cards with standard size ones. However, I think they are somewhat lenient here when using the voucher.

Gary,

Thanks for the info and quick response. I'll post the results when I get my order back. They are in BGS and SGC slabs currently.

Tony

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

T206 SGC 84 Ed Walsh,very tough Hofer, well centered (looked narrow to me), last night went for $1026 on Ebay. Enough said....

I'm an SGC guy but, to me, this card looks way overgraded. Those bottom two corners should have made it an SGC 80 (6). And there appears to be some edge wear on the top border as well, although it could just be my eyes. If it's edge wear, then that knocks it down to a 60 (5). IMO, the seller made out like a bandit on this card. No way it's worth $1026. The buyer obviously bought the holder and not the card.

[ullmandds]

I think many of the issues being discussed here can be avoided if one buys the card and not the holder...if this walsh is in fact narrow...this is likely why the price is/was low.

If one compares quality graded cards(cards that are especially nice for the grade)...I think the disparity will be much narrower...if at all.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

not sure about post-war, but modern stuff they're handing out GEM MINT 10s left and right. imo it's great for prewar collectors if the sgc/psa value gap is that big, you get more bang for the bucks with sgc cards.

+1

[tbob]

I buy PSA and BVG graded cards but I prefer SGC graded cards. I agree with Quan, you can get a better card in an SGC holder for the same price or even less than one in a PSA holder. In the pre-war cards I have often bought SGC 60s and some times 70s for less than PSA 4s. It's all in the eye appeal for me, for many others it is in the holder. I do agree that PSAs sell for more in post-war and even often in pre-war but if you can find a better looking card in a higher SGC holder, it's a no-brainer for me because I am a collector first and an investor second. Many are not and more power to them....

[glchen]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Gary,

Thanks for the info and quick response. I'll post the results when I get my order back. They are in BGS and SGC slabs currently.

Tony

Tony, if you are going to National, you might want to wait until then to sign up for the PSA membership and voucher albeit you probably need to wait in a long line. This year, it looks like you can exchange your voucher for onsite grading although it's at a reduced rate. Link. In the past, they've also given away some freebies that you could sell on ebay and make part of your membership fee back. Unfortunately, it looks like this year, there is only a poster.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm an SGC guy but, to me, this card looks way overgraded. Those bottom two corners should have made it an SGC 80 (6). And there appears to be some edge wear on the top border as well, although it could just be my eyes. If it's edge wear, then that knocks it down to a 60 (5). IMO, the seller made out like a bandit on this card. No way it's worth $1026. The buyer obviously bought the holder and not the card.

And paper loss above the "ME" in "AMER."?