SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

If SGC was smart they'd rebrand their registry by allowing other TPG holders so that collectors with mixed sets could register all their cards in one spot.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

If SGC was smart they'd rebrand their registry by allowing other TPG holders so that collectors with mixed sets could register all their cards in one spot.

I always wondered that...I also wondered why hasn't PSA made a mid grade classification for older cards...best psa 4-5 set etc....so all of sudden people would be fighting for and bidding on psa 5 goudeys for example....in boxing you have different weight classes...my analogy would be you could be the best in your class..even its psa 5

in addition...to protect from fraud I wonder why they don't allow registered owners to be contacted by prospective buyers of a card (in a way to protect privacy ) to see if the card they are bidding on is real...example..you see a cert verified 1952 mantle psa 4...and would like to bid on it..wouldn't it be nice to have an email sent to the person that owns that card who can advise if his card is really on ebay..?

[callou2131]

I would love to send a T206 to BGS just to see the confusion on the graders face

[brewing]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I agree with everything you said.....plus I wonder how market share is with the 25-45 year olds..who will be defining the buying market the next 20 years..i assuming psa is getting a bigger market share ...

I believe you are correct.

PSA tries to reach the younger demographic. While both have Twitter accounts, PSA uses theirs, while SGC hasn't posted in several years. It's FREE advertising, yet SGC ignores it.

This should matter to collectors with cards in SGC slabs. In 10 years, will SGC slabs be considered equal to GAI or worse? You can say buy the card, not the holder, but I think we can agree that it doesn't happen consistently.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by callou2131

I would love to send a T206 to BGS just to see the confusion on the graders face

Beckett Vintage Grading would grade a T206 and they probably know what one is.

As for the debate about SGC vs PSA. If it is a registry card then PSA has the dominance. If it isn't then not so much.

[AddieJoss]

I used to be an SGC guy, but 2 years ago I pointed out on thier POP reports they have cards errors and sets mixed together and they didn't care to correct. It is impossible to sort many of their sets on the POP report as well. Then....I submitted 2 cards for autograph authentication, both of which I got signed personally and they came back and wouldn't authenticate. Thier lack of ability to authenticate autographs also hurts the brand in my eyes. Also, given they are so much smaller of a company, they are one or two guys away from not being able to continue the business. I do not see a long-term succession plan for those folks who are grading.
In conclusion, I still buy some SGC cards but I'll send my raw cards to PSA as I've lost some confidence in SGC and I would urge no one to use or buy cards from their autograph authentication service.

Cory Weiser

[Dpeck100]

One of the primary issues that is driving the spread is market share. Collectors Universe is obviously a publicly traded company and has to report various metrics and one of those is market share.

Last year in one of their quarterly reports they indicated that they have 90% of the new card submission market. SGC has 1 or 2 points of market share for all cards being graded currently.

Take position bias out of the discussion and if you are in an industry where another competitor is this much larger you aren't even considered relevant.

I have used SGC once and their customer service was great and I was pleased with the grading accuracy and presentation in the holder. That said I have no illusions that those cards will ever sell for what they would in comparable grades in a PSA holder.

PSA is the 800 pound gorilla at this point and the values have followed.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

One of the primary issues that is driving the spread is market share. Collectors Universe is obviously a publicly traded company and has to report various metrics and one of those is market share.

Last year in one of their quarterly reports they indicated that they have 90% of the new card submission market. SGC has 1 or 2 points of market share for all cards being graded currently.

Take position bias out of the discussion and if you are in an industry where another competitor is this much larger you aren't even considered relevant.

I have used SGC once and their customer service was great and I was pleased with the grading accuracy and presentation in the holder. That said I have no illusions that those cards will ever sell for what they would in comparable grades in a PSA holder.

PSA is the 800 pound gorilla at this point and the values have followed.

right when I first came on net54...it was real hard to reach deals on sgc cards when I didn't agree to pay the same price as psa cards of the same level.....the market share on net54 is like 90% of SGC..at least that's what it feels like on BST on the big cards.....but in the outside world PSA dominates

[2dueces]

The registry is a powerful drug.

[e107collector]

Just to be clear, I never had any of my cards graded by PSA, but I am seriously beginning to think about crossing them over to their slabs, if I do decide to sell them in the future.

If I am reading their website correctly, if I have a card valued at $10,000+, I have to choose the same day service of $500 per card?? That seems absurd. Do I have this correct? I can't use the 5 day service of $35.00 a card?

Thanks,
Tony

[glchen]

Originally Posted by e107collector

Just to be clear, I never had any of my cards graded by PSA, but I am seriously beginning to think about crossing them over to their slabs, if I do decide to sell them in the future.

If I am reading their website correctly, if I have a card valued at $10,000+, I have to choose the same day service of $500 per card?? That seems absurd. Do I have this correct? I can't use the 5 day service of $35.00 a card?

Thanks,
Tony

Yes, you would use the $500 fee. You could choose the $35 fee, but if PSA loses or damages your card, they could use the declared value that you stated as the basis for compensating you. Therefore, you need to choose a value that you could stomach.

If the card is already in an SGC slab and it's a 10K+ card, I really don't know if I would bother the crossover. If the card does not cross at the grade you want it, you would still be out the $500 fee and the card would still be in the existing slab.

[sbfinley]

Edited... I hate typing on phones

[Orioles1954]

SGC has gone stagnant. Their set registry is non-existent, the pop reports are atrocious and the holders have obvious flaws. Any market share they had is going out the window. Speaking as a collector, I used to be exclusively SGC, but even their turn around times have slipped. Never thought I would go PSA, but I have....and am realizing more money because of it.

James Feagin

[bxb]

I'm more or less a PSA registry addict, so I only buy PSA cards. When I get a catalog, I skip the SGC cards.

The one exception would be if it's an SGC card that I can't find in a PSA holder. Then if I win it I cross it over to PSA.

Here is a link to one of my HOF sets:

http://www.psacard.com/PSASetRegistr...t.aspx?s=18882

[cincyredlegs]

I am confused with this comment:

"SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector"

Shouldn't it say "it's scary if you are an "investor"?

I personally am a collector, first and foremost. I am not interested in the registry game nor whether my collection is going to triple in price in the next 5 years. Therefore, I am more than happy to buy a nicely centered, crease free SGC 40 T206 at a fraction of the price of a PSA 4. Just means I can finish my set faster.

Mark

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by cincyredlegs

I am confused with this comment:

"SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector"

Shouldn't it say "it's scary if you are an "investor"?

I personally am a collector, first and foremost. I am not interested in the registry game nor whether my collection is going to triple in price in the next 5 years. Therefore, I am more than happy to buy a nicely centered, crease free SGC 40 T206 at a fraction of the price of a PSA 4. Just means I can finish my set faster.

Mark

I agree...for a collector SGCs are terrific if not worried about re-sale....

[Exhibitman]

If you are investing wouldn't the smart thing be to buy SGC cards at 1-2 grade below PSA prices then cross them over?

[yanks4]

I still am a SGC guy because of the flips, and service and the arrogance of PSA over the years,.... but I to am wondering why they refuse to market themselves better .....I think the registry is ugly and not a real improvement as was their first new flip....they seriously need a sharp graphic guy or gal and someone that's knows how to market themselves ..I still think there is a heck of an opportunity for someone who is capitalized to partner or purchase the brand....I hope it happens ...the sooner the better....

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I agree...for a collector SGCs are terrific if not worried about re-sale....

Why are SGC cards losing value? Sale price really means nothing if you do not account for purchase price.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by yanks4

I still am a SGC guy because of the flips, and service and the arrogance of PSA over the years,.... but I to am wondering why they refuse to market themselves better .....I think the registry is ugly and not a real improvement as was their first new flip....they seriously need a sharp graphic guy or gal and someone that's knows how to market themselves ..I still think there is a heck of an opportunity for someone who is capitalized to partner or purchase the brand....I hope it happens ...the sooner the better....

Perhaps they are content with the business as it is.

[Jay Wolt]

Will SGC's upcoming move from Jersey to Fla be a good thing, bad thing or no big deal?

[vintagebb2014]

As a long time collector that has used SGC exclusively for grading pre-war, their turnaround times have been very disappointing lately and it seems that their consistency has slipped. What other business can you think of that you pay for a 10 day turn around that takes 20+ days? It appears that they may need a shake up at SGC before they loose a lot of loyal customers. I renewed my PSA membership this week as I plan to slowly begin the process of crossing over to PSA just for the reason that Kevin brought up. I am a true collector first and foremost; however, I would like the greatest return once I choose to sell off my collection.

[EvilKing00]

I never sell, but i can say i like the look of the sgc holder better, as well think its more of a secure holder than psa.

I do buy, t205's and ruths graded by sgc, psa, bvg and raw. I always buy the card not the holder.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

In economic marketplaces you need at least two healthy companies to spur competition in creating innovation as well as consumer focused pricing and service. I'm a PSA supporter but hope that SGC and BVG can get their acts together. No one wants a TPG monopoly. Investing in technology (websites that are mobile responsive and look like this decade a good start) and marketing is much needed.

In my experience over the last 24 months, I've cracked 50+ cards out of SGC holders and received an average of 1 grade lower per PSA grading standards. (after the first couple times sending the cards in the holders for crossover and receiving uniformly lower grades, I always break them out first and surprisingly get the same results).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

In economic marketplaces you need at least two healthy companies to spur competition in creating innovation as well as consumer focused pricing and service. I'm a PSA supporter but hope that SGC and BVG can get their acts together. No one wants a TPG monopoly. Investing in technology (websites that are mobile responsive and look like this decade a good start) and marketing is much needed.

In my experience over the last 24 months, I've cracked 50+ cards out of SGC holders and received an average of 1 grade lower per PSA grading standards. (after the first couple times sending the cards in the holders for crossover and receiving uniformly lower grades, I always break them out first and surprisingly get the same results).

As I was saying about PSA being stricter these days...

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Will SGC's upcoming move from Jersey to Fla be a good thing, bad thing or no big deal?

SGC is moving to Florida?

[glchen]

I also tend to send more of my submissions to PSA, but I still send some to both SGC and Beckett every year, and like AJ, I would like to see a competitive market rather than a monopoly. Frankly, I think since SGC is a smaller company and needs to conserve their capital, I think they should just stick with their bread and butter which is consistent and strong grading, great customer service and delivering cards within their expected turnaround times. They are already foraying into autograph authentication, so let them digest and perfect that before moving onto techy gizmos and the like. I also think that the registry wars are already over. PSA has won that battle. So instead of trying to outdo PSA there, I would just try to have a simple registry that acts more like a checklist that collectors can use rather than battle on points. As others have suggested, allow cards from other TPG's or even raw cards. If they wanted to splurge on their registry, I would have them partner with a company like VCP, so they could integrate current market values into the cards listed on the registry to that collectors could get a rough idea on how much their collection is worth. I know people don't like to say it's investing, but still if people could see their cards like an investment portfolio, it might be a nice touch.

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

SGC is moving to Florida?

That's what I heard awhile ago.
The owner, Dave Forman lives in Fla so it makes sense for his company to be there too.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Why are SGC cards losing value? Sale price really means nothing if you do not account for purchase price.

true purchase price counts..if both cards are a '3' and the sgc is bought for 100 and the psa is bought for 200....and they sell for the same amounts...than neither card lost value

i think the discussion is when you look at sales prices for a '3'...the PSAs sell for more than the SGCs ..

whats the issue is i think people that have kept cars for a number of years back when the 3's were being sold at the same price....now are attempting to sell the card and they are seeing that the 3s from the SGC don't sell in general as much as the 3's for PSA....

CMIZE that started the thread wasn't talking about new purchases..he is concerned about purchases he made long ago and how his SGC cards appear to have lost their value from when he bought it.....so that's what i believe people mean about PSA keeping their value..

if you look at B/S/T you will see sellers wanting the same money for their SGC as the PSA counterpart and its just not happening more and more...they have to sell them for less........but yes..now that it does appears that SGCS are being bought for less..they aren't losing value as they may of 4 years ago when they were being bought for the same as their counterparts....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

In economic marketplaces you need at least two healthy companies to spur competition in creating innovation as well as consumer focused pricing and service. I'm a PSA supporter but hope that SGC and BVG can get their acts together. No one wants a TPG monopoly. Investing in technology (websites that are mobile responsive and look like this decade a good start) and marketing is much needed.

In my experience over the last 24 months, I've cracked 50+ cards out of SGC holders and received an average of 1 grade lower per PSA grading standards. (after the first couple times sending the cards in the holders for crossover and receiving uniformly lower grades, I always break them out first and surprisingly get the same results).

right, i will buy an SGC card considering it will crossover 1 grade lower.....yet dealers to this day and i suspect many at the National ..will get mad if you make an offer on an SGC 3 card based on VCP of a PSA 2 ..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

That's what I heard awhile ago.
The owner, Dave Forman lives in Fla so it makes sense for his company to be there too.

Certainly more convenient for when he needs to go into the office.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Certainly more convenient for when he needs to go into the office.

Common sense solutions to pedestrian problems.

[RGold]

For you songwriters, pedestrian rhymes with equestrian.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by cincyredlegs

I am confused with this comment:

"SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector"

Shouldn't it say "it's scary if you are an "investor"?

I personally am a collector, first and foremost. I am not interested in the registry game nor whether my collection is going to triple in price in the next 5 years. Therefore, I am more than happy to buy a nicely centered, crease free SGC 40 T206 at a fraction of the price of a PSA 4. Just means I can finish my set faster.

I saw this thread yesterday and had the same reaction. The original post was written from the perspective of somebody who is selling cards, or buying them with the intention of selling them (i.e. an investor). From the perspective of a pure collector, it seems like it would be a good thing if SGC-graded cards are selling for less -- it means that there are more bargains to be had.

On the spectrum from pure collector (buying/trading for cards only for enjoyment, with no thought whatsoever to potential resale value) to pure investor (only concerned with resale value, treating cards as commodities), I am pretty far towards the "pure collector" side. I've always been a very price-conscious collector, looking for bargains and trying to get the most bang for my buck; that's why I tend to collect cards that wouldn't necessarily get a high technical grade, but which have decent eye appeal. I seldom spend more than $100 for a card, and I don't think I've ever spent more than $200.

The vast majority of my N/T/E card collection is raw, partly because many of my cards were bought years ago before TPGs were a significant factor, but also because raw cards are nearly always cheaper than graded ones, so it's much easier to find good deals. I've never sent a card to a TPG to be graded, and honestly wouldn't know how to go about it. Of the relatively few slabbed cards in my collection (all obtained either on the B/S/T section of this board or on eBay, for what I considered very good prices), most are in SGC holders. That provides some anecdotal support for the OP's observation about SGC-graded cards selling for less than PSA-graded ones, but it could also have something to do with the fact that many of them are Old Judges, and as Joe G. (I think) has pointed out, SGC grades more Old Judges than PSA does, and that trend has been accelerating in recent years.

All that being said, it's not the case that I pay no attention at all to potential resale value. All else being equal, I'd prefer to own cards that will hold their value in the future, which is why I generally try to get the nicest-condition, nicest-looking card that my limited budget will allow. But as with my investments in mutual funds, I have a very long-term time horizon, so any resale value I'm thinking of is many years in the future, probably decades. I figure if and when it ever comes time for me or my descendents to sell my (raw) cards, they can always be sent to a grading company if it would enhance their market value, as it probably would. But that's so far in the future that I'm not going to worry now about which grading company would be best to send my cards to, because so many things could change by then.

Are you guys still talking purely T206's? I mean I've noticed cards in SGC holders tend to sell for a bit less than their PSA counterparts but I have not noticed a full grade difference, which again is why I'm asking if you are talking exclusively T206's (which I own a few of but don't collect exclusively)?

[GregMitch34]

As for non-T206s, I will say again there is a vast gap in value for Cracker Jack 1914s and 1915s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think it's fair to say that there is, in general, a reasonable gap for higher grade 1950s cards, and I would assume 1960s as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLA...item54190aa31e

[packs]

SGC cases keep my mostly mid-grade / collector grade cards protected and they look great in them. I couldn't care less about how much a theoretical card graded an 8 by two different companies sells for. Nor am I frightened.

[GregMitch34]

Peter, you are wrong on that--there were some really funky PSA 5s in the big t206 auction this weekend from Small Traditions. More like "3" corners.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Most of my 5s and the ones I have seen look much more like this, if not better.

Originally Posted by packs

SGC cases keep my mostly mid-grade / collector grade cards protected and they look great in them. I couldn't care less about how much a theoretical card graded an 8 by two different companies sells for. Nor am I frightened.

Ha, true. I guess I needn't worry either as most of my cards are in that same collector grade (4-6) range and display far better in the SGC cases in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLA...item54190aa31e

I agree, that's some pretty heavy corner wear. Looks like a 4.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by rocarroll

Piggy backing on what I said earlier about it being a "self fulfilling prophecy" I really do think it is a heard mentality. People think PSA is better cause that's what other people are telling them. Its almost like certain auctions that take place and their stuff sells for more just because they are selling it. Have you ever noticed when PWCC has an auction on EBAY their cards sell for about 30%or more than they would if I were selling them. I looked at that previous auction that closed recently and compared it to almost identically graded cards selling at the same time by individual buyers and they were going for way more. Tolstoi PSA 3's by an individual selling for in the $80s PWCC going for $110-120. In short its a reputation that has no real gold backing the currency so to speak. People just think its better.

If an industry wide rumor started next week that SGC was better within a month you would see the pricing reverse.

Ryan you really hit the nail on the head with this !!!

[steve B]

I've seen a few like that recently. Like maybe the last 6 months to a year.
And yes, I don't think they should be 5s

On the other hand it's making me think of resubmitting my 5s and 4s.

Steve B

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLA...item54190aa31e

[steve B]

SGC

The revamped registry isn't bad. But it's not a whole lot better than the old one.
Relevant? That's sort of silly. If you only collect PSA the SGC registry is just as irrelevant to you as the PSA registry is to me. Relevance is entirely subjective.

The changed then rechanged flip being a complaint is also amusing. They made a change customers didn't like and listened to their customers. I'm not seeing a problem other than a lack of market research that could have saved them some effort.

PSA

I haven't seen one, but from all I hear the new case is pretty good. Unless you use PSAs own storage boxes, then it's not so good. But a more tamper resistant case isn't a bad thing.

New flip?!?!? I didn't notice. really new? or just tweaks to the same design they've had since the start?

HEH! SGC registry had photos when I did my first submission- I forget when, maybe 2010? So much for innovation.

App? Haven't followed that. I'm betting I can't get it for my phone. It's apple/android only right? (Like every D*** app! Can I sue for discrimination? ) Just kidding, I know I probably can't.

SGC does have stuff they could do better. All companies do. I'd use PSA if they didn't have a silly cover charge. Pay me so you get the right to pay me ......for me that's pretty much a non starter.

Steve B

Originally Posted by brewing

I used to send 90% of my submissions to SGC, I now send 90% to PSA.

Outside of turnaround time PSA beats SGC up and down the block in everything else.

In the past 3 years the following actions have taken place by the companies.

SGC:
Revamped registry site, minimal improvement. Still irrelevant compared to PSA.
Changed flip and rechanged after customers voiced displeasure.

PSA:
New case which is harder to tamper with.
New Flip.
Upgraded Registry to allow for photo albums.
Released app that allows you to scan or input the registration number.

To me, it seems like either SGC isn't trying, doesn't want to improve , or is inept at marketing.

Brent Ingr@m

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Here is an example of what I feel are different grading standards. I don't think a card with this much corner rounding would grade a PSA 5.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-POLA...item54190aa31e

It could very easily have something to do with it being a Polar Bear. I'm sure that both PSA and SGC take into account for Polar Bears being way harder to get in great shape.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

It could very easily have something to do with it being a Polar Bear. I'm sure that both PSA and SGC take into account for Polar Bears being way harder to get in great shape.

if this is occurring...this is a big problem.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

if this is occurring...this is a big problem.

I wouldn't doubt it in the slightest. I feel like Polar Bears have always gotten a little bit of leeway.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I've seen a few like that recently. Like maybe the last 6 months to a year.
And yes, I don't think they should be 5s

On the other hand it's making me think of resubmitting my 5s and 4s.

Steve B

I strongly suspect that, for both grading services, high volume submitters tend to get better grades.