T209-1 Contentnea survey

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Posted By: Rob G.

Hello,
My name is Rob, I'm a long time lurker, and this is also my first post. I was recently checking my set of T209's. I noticed that some of my cards have a factory 12 overprint on the back. I was just curious to see how many others have the overprint on them. I've done some research, and I can only confirm the existence of 2 other cards. I know most don't collect this set, but if you do have any it would be appreciated if you could check. I'm trying to upload a scan of some of my cards, but I've never posted a scan to the web, so hopefully it will appear. Thanks!



edited size

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I've been collecting the T209's since the mid '80's.
I have 2 sets of the type 1's, and 219 of the type 2's.
The purple stamp factory 12, is definitely part of the type 1 set.
However, you wont find them on all the type 1's.
Time, and handling will wear off some of them.
I've always found both sets to be interesting.
If you're trying to collect the set, go for it, and lots of luck.

Joe P.

Oops, I forgot.

Welcome Aboard!

Those are nice cards.

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Posted By: John S

I have one example (and it has the factory overprint). I would be interested to see the results as well. There is an old thread that relates to the factory overprints on T209-1's. Welcome to the board.





Found it....

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1151101585/T209+%28color%29+Factory+overprint+stamp

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Posted By: leon

I have about 5 from the set as it's one of the obscure sets I think is cool....then I have this one with a different overprint....

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Posted By: Ray Piskadlo

Cool card Leon! I only have two so far... Walsh and Hoffman. Neither has an overprint.

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Posted By: Rob G.

Thanks for the replys and the warm welcome. I have 6 different players that have the overprint. Walsh, Gilmore, Crockett, Cooper, Hoffman, and Lane. I've seen a copy of Stubbe and Martin, and now the Pope. Do you guys think its possible to complete this set with just overprints. I've searched everywhere on the web trying to find information about these, but there just isn't much information out there. Joe, I never thought about the possiblity of them wearing away over time, that might explain why they seem harder to come by.

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Posted By: John S

Leon,

It looks as if you have the other half of my card...very cool.

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Posted By: leon

I forgot to welcome you aboard....so Welcome Aboard......and let me know if I can ever help you in any way......and good luck in the quest...also, my T209-1 with the factory overprint is Stubbe......

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Posted By: Rob G.

Thanks Leon, and also thanks for making my image smaller. I did see the copy of Stubbe on your website, and thats the only example I've seen of him.

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Posted By: Mark

I have Martin of Spartanburg - w/Fact. 12 Overprint.

Although the overprints seems harder to locate, eitherway a very tough issue - tougher than most realize.

Hope the info helps,

Mark

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Gentleman, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what is being referred to as an overprint, is really a hand stamp.
Factory 12 was not part of the printing process.

After going over the extra's that I have, I'm still kicking around in my head why not more stamped T209 type 1's?
The wear and age of the card, doesn't seem to be enough for the absent of so many stamped cards.

Rob, I strongly believe that one can collect a stamped T209 type 1 set. ... as a matter of fact ... you got me thinkin.

The stamped ones that I have:
Booles...
Cooper...
Crockett...
Hoffman...

John S. thanks for the link to the old thread.

Leon, that's one beautiful ghost. ... can we talk?

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Posted By: Dylan

This is 100% a handstamp, but whether or not its an overprint all depends on how you define "overprint." D355 Niagra Baking is a handstamp, which in all likelihood wasn't part of the production process but added later by the store for their own purpose. Im sure the "old put" overprint is a handstamp too in the same way Niagra baking is. The set that I think is an exception is E94. The overprint is much more detailed and due to them all having similer designs but different advertisers, it leads me to believe the producer of the cards produced the overprint as well. The toy town stamp isnt a legitimate overprint as the stamp comes from a childs game and not from an advertiser. This is why random cards from multiple sets have the stamp. I think its likely that one person from a long time ago stamped their own cards with the toy town stam similer to how we find a persons initials placed on all their cards. According to your definition(i think) a card is only an overprint if the overprint was placed on the card by the original manufacturer of the card set. By that definition only the E94(if what i said above is true) would be a true "overprint" and everything else would be "handstamps." But to me this is all semantics. People value the old put and the Niagra baking because of their rarity and their connection to a legitimate advertiser. Whether the advertiser or the card producer placed it on the card is just details.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

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Posted By: leon

I have to agree with you that these Contentnea factory #'s were handstamps but I think they were done by workers at the factory and then inserted into cigarette packs. Maybe the packs didn't have the factory # on them so they put them on the cards? I have only seen a few packs of Contentnea and don't remember if they had factory numbers or not...and even if they did there might have been packs that didn't have them too. Just a guess on that. As for the darn D355's I agree with you. Unfortunately, in my book whatever Burdick said is the gospel in collecting. I would correlate it to the English language and vocabulary. Sometimes they don't make sense at all but we don't change them. We live with them. I know others have different opinions and that's ok too. I agree about the Old Puts also. I think they were put on at a cigar store and given away at the Point of Sale to advertise the brand. Fascinating to think a candy card became a tobacco card in that regard. As for E94 Overprints I never miss a photo opportunity (see below). However, I do think there were only 2 different advertisers and one was Blomes and the other was "The George Close Company." All of the ones that aren't Blomes are different kinds of candy but the same mfg. Another tidbit of worthless info...Seven of the ones I have are pictured in Lew Lipset's encyclopedia and are the exact ones in it as they come from his collection..When they were originally collected, I guess in the 70's or early 80's, they were probably valued at $5-$10 ea....(sorry for hijacking the thread too...but I don't think it was in a bad way).....regards

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Posted By: Rob G.

I agree that these are hand stamped, and have no problem refering to them as hand stamped. I only used the term "overprint" because basically thats the term that others were using for these. Its nice to know that multiple copies are out there. But so far, I can't account for the other 6 cards in the set. They must be out there, right?

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Now you got me digging up my place, looking for my Contentnea pack.

Maybe Jon Canfield can shed some light on the Contentnea packs?

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Posted By: Ed

I decided I would allow some of the users here posts their opinions before I stepped up to the plate and try & shed some light on this.The T-209 Contentnea Colored Type ones were indeed hand stamped so for those of you who stated that give yourself a pat on the back.The cards were not stamped & placed into the packs.The reason for the hand stamping was for a redeemed card in which you could recieve either a Contentnea Cigarette lighter or a TypeII B.E. Thompson Card.Now which do you think most sought after.If you guessed the Thompson card your indeed correct.The ratio as far as cards being stamped are 30% Stamped & 70 % not stamped.I had a complete set in Nr. Mt condition that was not stamped,I am not saying that the cards that are stamped can't be found in a high grade because they can be but if one notices the handstamped cards are 95% of the time found in lower grades because they were handled by the employees & at that time they could care less if the cards were damaged & you know it's kind of too bad we today didn't think the same way and make this a HOBBY as it was then. I hope this helps if you have questions I'll try & answer them.
Thank-you

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Posted By: robert a

Hi Ed,

That's great information. Thanks for sharing.
Did you find documentation that supports the theory?

Also, care to shed any light on why one would want to "be sure and save B.E. Thompson's picture?"

Robert

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Posted By: leon

Very interesting and thanks for stepping up to the plate. May I ask where you found your info? I think that a lot of the fun in the hobby is this kind of investigative stuff and I love to hear how it came about. I remember a story was told about ole B.E. but I forget it now.....it was good though. If I am not mistaking he was the President of the League (or commissioner)....best regards and thanks again..

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Posted By: Rob G.

Ed,
Thanks so much for sharing. That was a great post.

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Posted By: mark macrae

I checked my set of color Contentneas. 15 of the 16 have the handstamp (Lane does not). I've owned a few hundred of the Type 1's and recall that a high percentage of the cards that I've seen have the overstamp, although in many cases it is a very light impression. There is certainly a higher percentage of T-209-1's found with the stamp in comparison to the T-212 Obaks with the two digit stamp on the back. I agree that they were most likely done at the factory. The Type 2 Contentneas have the factory designation incorporated into the typesetting. I do have an empty Contentnea pack, which is also from Factory 12. Leon, nice printer's scrap cards. I have 3 more from most likely the same sheet.

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Posted By: Ed

Robert I did a lot of research on these & other Tobacco cards & the documentation I have I got from the Hobby pioneers.As for the B.E. Thompson card it is very obvious.Who does he look like on the card? If you guessed uncle Sam then your correct.There is some speculation that Mr. Thompson was a umpire who later became a manager.I have not been able to verify which team he managed.If you saved up enough BE Thompson cards you were given several cards in return for his one which if you go back & read my first post it makes sense(Thats why more B.E. Thompson cards were redeemed ,oh & before I forget I at one time owned one of those Contentnea Lighters & the thing was all silver & the Contentnea was written the same way on the card & it was the old Flint lighter.Hope that helps.

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Posted By: leon

Thanks.....I think you probably know the gentleman it came from...Mike Berkus from The National fame....so it was from an original hobby collection...

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Posted By: Ed

My Error I got the numbers mixed up on the stamped versus no stamp ratio it's reversed 70% were hand stamped & 30% were not,Sorry

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Posted By: robert a

Thanks Ed.

I recall speculation that Mr. Thompson was the commish of the league, but since his cards have the Wilson designation I always thought it would make more sense that he was the manager of that particular team.

Maybe both.

Robert

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I do not think the stamp was used to validate any redemption. I would go with the theory of the factrory stamp needing to be on the card. Why else would every tobacco issue have the factory info? I have seen quite a few high grade ones with the stamp as well.

The B. E. Thompson card states "save your B.E. Thompson cards" I do believe they were part of a prize program.

B.E. Thompson was the league commissioner.

Scott

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

The stamped cards were redeemed for prizes.

Somewhere in my live in Planet, I have a Contentnea lighter that I've forgotten about.
I know that I'm not that old, and I don't recall sending in for the prize.
Ed, thanks for filling in that part of the puzzle.

What you said, wasn't conjecture - speculation - assumption or a theory. ... It was a fact ... what a breath of fresh air.

Welcome Aboard Ed.

Mark, how's your Type II coming along?

Joe

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Posted By: scott brockelman

What leads you to believe the type 1's were redeemed for anything? It would make much sense that the type 2 B E Thompson was the redemption card as it states "save this card"

Scott

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Posted By: Ed

Scott lets look at this situation a bit closely.It makes sense that the type one cards were the ones used for the type two's because the colored cards being colored were printed to only 16 subjects.The Thompson card was from what I have been told & read a card that was redeemed for more than one of the b&w type two's.I hope this helps and I will be doing some research as to Thompson being the league commish.Thanks for the reply & I hope this helps.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

You lost me there.

The type 1 color 16 cards were the "1st series" of colors. the 2nd color series was never produced, although I do have mock ups of some of them. The type 1 colors are all line drawings and were probably halted due to production costs. below are 2 pieces that are probably cut from an ad piece. You will see 2 of the type 1 players, the other 6 were intended to be in the "2nd Series"





The type 2's are all real photo's taken either in studio or at the local ball park.

Thompson only appeared in type 2. I believe that the knife and possibly other prizes were redeemed for his card as it states on the back "see your local merchant". it's also possible one could get more cards for redeeming his but I don't think so, that would be counterproductive to a premium/prize insert marketing strategy.

EDITED to add, I have been told by several baseball historians that B. E. Thompson was the commissioner, however I never gave the fact that his card says "Wilson" a thought. Perhaps he was the manager of the Wilson club. I have looked for more info on him to no avail.

Scott

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Posted By: robert a

Scott.

Perhaps your wonderful piece could've been part of a "mock up" for the 1st series and only a couple players from the two "sheets" that you have were chosen for the set of 16.

Rob

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Posted By: Ed

Scott,
Sorry that I lost you.Let me try this again. The part where you stated the color cards were costly I agree with you 100% & that is what I was trying to point out.This is why the type ones were used to redeem cards etc.. & I never stated the B.E. Thompson card was in type one but the card is to believed to of been a promotion for the type II B&W cards as were the colored type ones.I The back of the Thompson card is different so who's to say these were not printed the same time as the Colored? Thank-you for the scans I find them interesting.I hope we both can understand each other better on this issue .I have read many of books on the cards & have talked with several Hobby Pioneers.I have a book in my archives that I hope I can find as I know you would find it interesting as it relates to the southern league teams of this era.I guess we could go back & forth but I will say this, I like all the replies I have read as I will digest all the info & leave it as anyones guess & I hope to read more posts on these cards

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Ed,

I did not mean to say that you indicated the Thompson was a type 1, I do think, based on the real photo that is was issued at the same time as the type 2's and I still don;t think the type 1's were meant to be redeemed, but that's just my opinion and I am certainly open to further discussion pending any proof of such. Again, as others have indicated I believe the factory stamp was added because it was supposed to be there by law and wasn't.

Now here's an interesting thought. Do we know for a fact that the type 1's were produced first??? they very well could have been produced after the Black and Whites. Then production ceased due to costs', or the end of the season may have arrived and the second series may have not been needed. A little research of the players and their major league/minor league dates may prove out such.

Rob,

You may be correct but I would still think they were intended for the second series. Again we have no proof either way, but they were definitely on the drawing board. Also there are more to the pieces I have shown as they do not match up on the cuts, so somewhere if they still survived are more players pictured.

Scott

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Posted By: Rob G.

I just wanted to say thanks to those who replied. It was very intresting to hear some of the hobby veterans chime in and shed some knowledge on a little talked about set. Joe, I forgot my manners, thanks for the nice comment about my cards, I was just excited to acctually be getting replies to my first post.

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Posted By: Tom Hufford

I'm not sure where the speculation comes from that B.E. Thompson was the "league commisioner." What is a "league commissioner," is it the same as league president?

The T209-2 set has teams from the 1910 Virginia League (Jacob Wells,theater promoter/former major leaguer from Norfolk was league president), Carolina Association (Joseph H. Wearn, a lumber businessman from Charlotte, NC was league president), and the Eastern Carolina League (Dr. Joel D. Whitaker,a physician from Raleigh, NC was league president). The 1910 Wilson team of the Eastern Carolina League was managed by Charles McGeehan. So, the idea of Thompson being a league president or the Wilson manager doesn't fit.

I had thought that perhaps B.E. Thompson was president of the Contentnea Cigarette Co., and his photo used for a promotion, but then why include the word "Wilson?"

I have checked the U.S. Census and North Carolina records for a B.E. Thompson that might fit. The best I have come up with is:

Benjamin E. Thompson
b. January 1839 NC
d. Nov. 28, 1920 Nash Co., NC

This fellow was living in Wilson in 1900, occupation listed as a farmer, and he died in Nash Co., adjacent to Wilson Co., in 1920. Perhaps he was a big tobacco farmer who supplied tobacco to Contentnea, someone thought he looked like Uncle Sam, and they used him in a promotion. All pure speculation on my part. So, the research will continue...

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Any way you cut it, that's excellent digging. ... Thank you Tom.

One thing for sure, it's recharged my old battery, and wet my appetite to get back into the digging mode of this great overlooked set.

I can't help but feel that some of the other T209 critters on this board, feel the same way?

Rob G, you see what you've started?

Tom, thanks again for the jump start.

jOE

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I looked quite a bit to find him on the census and with your bit of info I have now located him on the 1880 census in Wilson county occupation Miller, 1900 in Wilson county occupation listed as Farmer. I was hoping to find him with an occupation connected to the team or company, but could not, at least yet. I have yet to find him on the 1910 census.

I am beginning to think the League commissioner is probably incorrect and you have definitive names of the various presidents. Perhaps he was just a prominent tobacco grower???

Again, thanks for some very good facts.

Scott

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Posted By: Jay

Great posts guys! This is the board at its best.

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Posted By: Mark Macrae

Some additional trivia...The Contentnea brand of cigarettes was marketed by the Erwin Nadal Tobacco Company in Wilson, North Carolina. If one digs out a map, you'll note that Wilson sits in the middle of 4 cities, Raleigh, Goldsboro, Rocky Mount and Greenville. Each of the five cities hosted baseball clubs which were featured in the T-209 series. At the turn of the century, this region, needless to say was "tobacco country". Today there is a nature preserve and creek which bears the Contentnea name. Joe Pelaez & I talked about this series a few years back with the same amount of curiosity about the identity of B.E Thompson. We have yet to recruit a local, North Carolina based historian that might have a clue to Thompson's prominance in Wilson at the time. While many cities in the US had directories, which often times contained advertising or personal information, I've yet to locate one from Wilson which was printed around 1910. As touched on above by Scott B, I believe that there was a regulation requiring 'point of origin' to be included on the insert cards of the 20th Century. The only baseball set that seems to have bypassed this regulation was the T-217 Mono Cigarette series.... I believe that Tom H has identified the correct individual as well.... I'll email another friend who began studying the subjects in T-209 & T-210 about 10 years ago and will post any updates on Thompson's identity (if known) ......interesting post on such an obscure set....

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I just dug out my set of T209 Type One set.

Armstrong, Lane, Cowell, Gilmore & Bourquise do not have the Fact 12 stamp.

The other 11 do have the stamp.

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Posted By: Andy Cook

I checked my set and only 2 have the back stamp - Armstrong and Walsh.

Andy

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Posted By: Seth B.

Out of touch most of the summer, I somehow missed this post. 3 of my T209s are stamped, they are Lane, McGeehan, and Hoffman.

By the way, this was a very impressive thread, and a great read. Good work guys,

-Seth B.

[Potomac Yank]

I just re read this thread after two years, and the topic still grabs you.

Has anyone come up with any updates?