Question regarding the "GOODWIN & CO." line on 1889 OLD JUDGE cards...

[orator1]

According to Jay, Joe, and Richard's Old Judge book, the final line at the bottom of 1889 Old Judge cards is "GOODWIN & CO., New York".

Are there any cards in which the final line "GOODWIN & CO., New York" is omitted?

Reason I ask is that one of the following cards from 1889 has the "GOODWIN & CO., New York" line but the graded card does not.

Was the GOODWIN line cut off the bottom of the card or was the card produced that way and is simply a variation or an error? I thought that all the 1889 Old Judge cards were supposed to have the GOODWIN line at the bottom.

Also, the book states that 1889 cards are identified by the text "OLD JUDGE CIGARETTE FACTORY" as opposed to earlier years which had the text "OLD JUDGE CIGARETTES". The graded card was identified as an 1887 card, so is this card mis-labeled by SGC?

Thanks!

Paul C.

[oldjudge]

1.Yes, the date is wrong on the slab--it is an 1889 card

2. Joe provides a much better explanation for the missing last line in his post below.

[barrysloate]

Doesn't SGC put the 1887 date on all their Old Judge slabs? I don't ever recall seeing one dated 1888 or 1889.

[Fred]

Barry, I haven't seen any SGC flips with any year but 1887. I think it's the same for PSA also.

[cozmokramer]

that is correct... all grading companies simply slab OJs as 1887

[Joe_G.]

Good observation Paul, it's amazing what you will notice if you study pre-war cards, especially Old Judges. Like Jay noted, the card is complete, it wasn't trimmed short by Goodwin & Co. or any of its owners over the last 121 years. Any of the following three scenarios could be responsible for the O'Rourke card (most to least likely - in my opinion):

1) While the 24 card sheet that O'Rourke belonged to was being developed (exposed to sunlight), something, perhaps a neighboring sheet of albumen paper, was placed a bit too close and robbed O'Rourke of a full image. In this case, O'Rourke was probably in the bottom row of the sheet and just got clipped by whatever was placed just below it. While not common, examples of this are out there. I have a Stump Wiedman that is missing a good portion of its left border; Jay has a great example of a missing right border on a McCarthy card which can be seen on page 86 of the book.

2) In 1889 (as well as 1888 Fa & 1890 cards), the matte that was placed over the 24 image matrix did not contain the Old Judge advertising. In quite a few cases, this matte clips a portion of the advertisement, most often the "C" in "CIGARETTE" at the left border or the "." in "FACTORY." at the right but also sometimes clips a portion of the bottom line. There are many examples of this in the book including 12-2, 105-5 (Fa), 200-2, a pair of Nichols, 342-2 & 342-4, 402-3, and 447-4 (had my old notes handy). None of these are missing an entire line, but you can see how easily that could happen.

3) Third scenario being that the advertising line fell off before being photographed as a 24 image sheet. This may be the least likely since I believe this last line resided on same piece of paper as the lines above it making it an all or nothing situation (true for 1889 cards). Although, I suppose the last line could have been accidently cut off from the rest.

Better scans of both cards you presented could help determine most likely root cause. I'm sure I've provided far too much information but this is right up my alley. You need to be careful when you ask OJ questions

[orator1]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Good observation Paul, it's amazing what you will notice if you study pre-war cards, especially Old Judges. Like Jay noted, the card is complete, it wasn't trimmed short by Goodwin & Co. or any of its owners over the last 121 years. Any of the following three scenarios could be responsible for the O'Rourke card (most to least likely - in my opinion):

1) While the 24 card sheet that O'Rourke belonged to was being developed (exposed to sunlight), something, perhaps a neighboring sheet of albumen paper, was placed a bit too close and robbed O'Rourke of a full image. In this case, O'Rourke was probably in the bottom row of the sheet and just got clipped by whatever was placed just below it. While not common, examples of this are out there. I have a Stump Wiedman that is missing a good portion of its left border; Jay has a great example of a missing right border on a McCarthy card which can be seen on page 86 of the book.

2) In 1889 (as well as 1888 Fa & 1890 cards), the matte that was placed over the 24 image matrix did not contain the Old Judge advertising. In quite a few cases, this matte clips a portion of the advertisement, most often the "C" in "CIGARETTE" at the left border or the "." in "FACTORY." at the right but also sometimes clips a portion of the bottom line. There are many examples of this in the book including 12-2, 105-5 (Fa), 200-2, a pair of Nichols, 342-2 & 342-4, 402-3, and 447-4 (had my old notes handy). None of these are missing an entire line, but you can see how easily that could happen.

3) Third scenario being that the advertising line fell off before being photographed as a 24 image sheet. This may be the least likely since I believe this last line resided on same piece of paper as the lines above it making it an all or nothing situation (true for 1889 cards). Although, I suppose the last line could have been accidently cut off from the rest.

Better scans of both cards you presented could help determine most likely root cause. I'm sure I've provided far too much information but this is right up my alley. You need to be careful when you ask OJ questions

Joe,
Thanks for the detailed explanations. The card didn't appear to be cut across the bottom, but I've never seen one before where the "GOODWIN & CO., New York" line is completely missing. The examples you provided from your book with partial text missing were helpful, and I can see how this could happen.

I don't own either card so I am not able to provide better scans. The card with the missing line has been listed on ebay for several months for around $1000. I requested a better image from the seller but unfortunately I did not receive one.

Paul C.