Card Grading Is Upside Down

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Look at it this way. Tell me if you can tell the difference between a PSA 10 and a SGC 95 with the naked eye. I would be extremely impressed if you could.

So in a way we really don't need the grading companies. A PSA 10 looks like an SGC 95 looks like a GAI 10. However, at the other end of the spectrum what's the difference between a PSA 1 and a SGC 10. Does a card look better being a horrible mis-cut or with major creases through the face of the ballplayer. This is the area the grading companies should be concentrating on. I want them to tell me whether a card is legitimate and whether the centering is simply bad or awful.

Here's what I'm saying. There's no reason for the fine distinctions between the SGC 88 and the SGC 90. I would much rather see them make a distinction between the SGC 10 and the SGC 15, that's where I need some help.

Peter

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Posted By: Josh Adams

nevermind.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

For starters there is no such thing as an SGC 95 or an SGC 90 or an SGC 15. More importantly, what is your point?? What does any of this have to do with the need for grading companies?

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Posted By: Kyle

Random thought, any blind collectors on here?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I agree grading can be upside down. I got an SGC graded card in the mail, and when I pulled it out of the bubble wrap the label was on the bottom and all the writing was upside down. What is weird is I left the holder on the table and when I later returned to the room through a different door, someone had replaced the holder with one with label was on top and the writing was rightside up.

I've also seen SGC holders were the label is put in backwards. Evidently, they do this to identify when the card was put in backwards.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Only blind graders.

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Posted By: Mike Pugeda

Peter,

While some posters are busy un-bunching their panties, I'll try to answer your question. I agree that there is not enough distinction at the lower end of the grading spectrum. I have same-grade cards (i.e. SGC40) that I just don't understand. One looks like a 20, another like a 50. I know that there is subjectivity, but I just wish there was more consistency. There shouldn't be such a huge disparity within the same grade. I just feel that at this level, the top 2-3 grading companies should be fairly consistent.

I guess the bottom line is money. Higher graded cards sell for more, sometimes a single bump up could be worth hundreds or thousands. Hence more distinction at the higher end of the grading scale. Can I tell the difference between an 88,92,96,98? Probably not too often, but then again, I don't use a microscope, so........That's why I collect lower grade, I'm not willing to pay premiums for the difference between an 88 and a 96. It just doesn't matter to me.

Mike Pugeda

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Posted By: Steve f

Hey, at least he's cipoT nO.

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Posted By: Silver King

Hey Peter,

I understand your question and have always wondered why there isn't a different scale altogether, something like a 3-tier score. Why not grade the card, the corners, the wear, the back, etc. I guess that is just too much for any grading company to do. I don't own any high grade cards of any sort, but I do own a few lower grade SGC N172's and N173's from Authentic up to a 40. One of my SGC 40 pictures appears faded and washed out, but has excellent corners; my SGC 10 has a perfect picture but chipped corners. I think the SGC 10 is a much more appealing card due to the clarity of the picture so to me the grading scale is off.

I am not an investor and I bought the cards slabbed and just thought it odd that the card with the better picture is graded lower because of the corners. I see your point. I wish cards received multi-grades for different elements.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Don't make grading any more complicated than it is. That will just make it worse.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

When searching for cards on ebay I have more faith in a "grade" given then I do some scanned images that can easily be touched up a little. I'm not saying buy the "grade" or the "slab" - far from it. But I've given up on trying to by ungraded cards reflecting someone's view of VG or NM...I'll take the grading companies idea of what that is over a seller any day.

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Posted By: peter chao

King,

Actually CTA did this and issued a grading report that went with each card. But alas the hobby wasn't ready for this and CTA is out of business. They would then average the grades and come to a single number, however, the grading report will list all the numbers.

Now if you see a CTA card graded an 8 it is a true 8 in my opinion.

Peter

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Posted By: Rick

David, just to be fair, I have also had similar situations with PSA and GAI.

Rick

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Posted By: JimB

Aside from a PSA 10/SGC 98 or 100, there are nuances at the different grading levels. There can be a larger degree of variance as one moves down the scale because there are a wider variety and range of defects or combination of defects which are permissable at the lower levels. Thus, in many ways it can be tougher to determine vg/ex as opposed to ex than the difference between nm/mt and mint. Grading is subjective and will always be part art/part science. Though I have had disagreements with the determinations of all the major grading services from time to time, I think the truth is that we only have a standard enough system from which to gripe about grades because they have been so consistent overall.
JimB

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Who cares what someone else thinks of your low/mid grade card? Determine what characteristics you like, those you can't tolerate, and buy what results. But slabbing a vg/ex? Maybe for reasle if it is sufficiently rare; but even then only because the cattle can not tell the difference between a card and a McDonald's burger.

Free yourself from this!

Don't think of your cards in terms of what number someone else thinks it deserves.

How do you like it?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I know there is a difference in visual appeal and financial value between a Fair and Near Mint card, but professional grading, and their numbers, is often used as a method to create artificial rarity. This is especially true with plentiful issues where only a make believe rarity can exist. "There may be 10,000 of these cards but only 8 exist in a '9.'" So, yes, there are people who collect numbers and who would find important difference between a 92 and a 93.

My guess is that more than half of the people who buy professionally graded Mint cards don't buy them so much buy them because they're Mint, but because they perceive Mint as "rare." For these people, whether they can see the difference between a 9 and a 10 is besides the point.

I'm sure there are perfectionist collectors who, irrelevant to book value and population reports, genuinely want the perfect conditioned card or poster or mechanical bank as perfection condition is music to their eyes and hearts. However, I suspect that a minor edge touch does not make a significant aesthetic difference to most high grade card collectors, but these collectors perceive 9s and 10s as 'rare' and know they sell for more.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

if you want to use a subjective (attempting its best to be objective) third party appraisal system, then you have to just let go. Just let it go, don't try and play uber grader and vex over every frayed edge and print dot, accept that you are playing a game in which every participant has their role and enjoy it..........or else smash up the slabs and go birthday suit.

If you understand that you will percieve condition differently than I and every other collector, then why get all hung up over what a grader thinks? If it looks like they've made an egregious error, then resubmit and in all likelihood it will be rectified. If after another examination the opinion remains the same, then in all likelihood it is you who is making wishful observations and determinations.

And by tinkering any more with the grading breakdowns you will simply create more areas for disagreement. My wife sees the color yellow differently than I do, and where orange enters is an endless debate. Whose right?

A real waste of brain cells as I see it.
Play the game or don't, but gee, these aren't nucleotides were identifying, its cardboard.




Daniel

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

What is that, Chicago Transit Authority?

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Posted By: Joe D.

too many cards fall to the SGC 10 or PSA 1 grades.... and they are all not created equal.

I had a T206 that looked as though it was folded up, chewed on, spit out and then placed into an SGC 10 holder.
I had another T206 that looked like an SGC 40 from a normal viewing distance, but due to the number of hard-to-perceive spider wrinkles - it was given an SGC 10.

Those two SGC 10s were not in the same league.


I would like to see grades 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 (all the way to 30)... or at least more numbers within that range.

or PSA 1.1 1.2 1.3.... etc.


I think that is a flaw in the grading system. There is no differentiation of a good "SGC 10" and a terrible "SGC 10"

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Posted By: JK

If you buy the card, not the grade, it doesnt matter what the grader thinks.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- if they really create those many grades, as you suggest, you will make it impossible for collectors to grade their own cards. We will be entirely beholden to the grading services.

I'm happy to accept their third party opinion but still want to be able to make a judgment myself. Can you imagine a catalog description: "this is a little better than a 13, but not quite a 14"? We'll all end up in the loony bin.

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Posted By: John H.

What's the story with that Donovan card???

John

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I disagree that the grading system is broken, even at the "poor/fair" levels.

It just is what it is.

It's like cars. I used to know a guy who thought that Mercedes-Benz made the "best" cars. He was pretty wealthy, and so he had a small collection of 7 or 8 Mercedes. He drove them around, showed them off, and felt like he had a nice investment in classic (and new) vehicles that, by his standards, were "best." He'd buy one with the help of his mechanic, and give it to him, and a few months later he'd have a new, restored Mercedes.

I knew another guy who thought the first guy was ridiculous, and that the "best" cars were classic American sports cars - Corvettes and Mustangs, stuff like that. He had restored a '63 Vette and a Mustang Fastback all by himself, polished them up every Saturday, and took them out on weekends, being careful not to damage them or anything.

At the same time, I had a coworker who drove a Honda Accord, thought the other two guys were insane, and felt that he could drive his Accord for 500,000 miles without any major repairs, and that meant his car was the "best" buy out there.

During that time, I drove an Isuzu Rodeo SUV that Consumer Reports could not recommend, because there were not enough cup holders in the cabin and because the footrest for the driver's left foot was too narrow. I loved the car, though, it was perfect for me.

Who cares?

I know an SGC 10 might have a massive burn mark on the front of the card. It might also look great on the front but have a bunch of back damage. I make my decision based on what the card looks like, and I'm usually happy with what I decide, for my collection.

Someone else might not even look at an SGC 10, though. They might think the "best" card is an SGC 84 or better and nothing less. Even if the card looked great, they want Consumer Reports to say they "recommend" it for whatever reason.

All it is is a relatively objective look at a card, using a predefined set of standards that collectors can use - or not use - depending on their own preferences.

It's a big hobby, lots of room for all the opinions.

-Al

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

That sure looks like a CTA 7 or higher to me.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

I agree with Barry that grading is already complex enough.

That said, I would have much preferred if PSA had decided to differentiate between "poor" and "fair" and avoided the artifice of "gem mint", that is:

1 - P
2 - F
3 - G
4 - VG
5 - VG/EX
6 - EX
7 - EX/NM
8 - NM
9 - NM/MT
10 - MT

After all, who doesn't think that an "excellent" anything is better than a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10?

Of course, for reasons identified by David, it was in PSA's economic interest to create a scale with greater differentiation at the high end.

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Posted By: peter chao

Peter S.,

Your just picking on CTA, they really were pretty good. But darn it, I can't remember what the initials stood for, that's probably one of the reasons they went under.

Peter

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Does anyone here OWN any CTA graded cards? Do show.

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Posted By: Joe D.

"Can you imagine a catalog description: "this is a little better than a 13, but not quite a 14"? We'll all end up in the loony bin."

-- Barry, I would argue that we may very well belong in the loony bin anyway!



Honestly - I don't care much about the number grades themselves... and completely agree with Josh that you should buy the card not the holder. I go more for eye appeal than anything else. And if a good eye appeal card has a low grade, thats a jackpot for me because I get to buy it at a discounted price. What bothers the graders doesn't always bother me... and sometimes what bothers me - they completely overlook (poor registration).

My opinion was more or less pointing out a shortcoming of the grading system.

I would guess that more than 50%, heck maybe more than 60-70% of the raw prewar cards that exist would grade an SGC 10 or PSA 1 for technical reasons. Lumping the vast majority of cards out there into one grade is what I call a shortcoming in the system. just my opinion.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Home | Company Info | Submissions | Grading Scale | Population Report



>Understanding your Grading Report


>View our Flash Intro






CTA Grading Experts
PO Box 2556
Rohnert Park, CA 94927



Understanding your Grading Report
CTA's grade report has 8 zones; 4 on the front and 4 on the back. Four categories are judged within each zone: Corners, Edges, Surface and Centering. Centering is the only category that is graded in two zones. The front of the card is one zone and the back of the card is another. In each zone there is a graded number ranging from 0-4. Zero being no damage, 1 being very slight damage (usually factory related), 2 being slight but noticeable (usually man made), 3 being very visible yet moderate damage, and 4 being severe damage.

Corners: 1-very slight, 2-more noticeable (usually man made), 3-very noticeable corner damage 4-a rounded corner with extreme signs of mishandling. Very often, a 1 corner is missed by a novice collector.

Edges: A one indicates a slight chip in color or a very small factory roll. Two is associated with severe factory rolls, very rough cut edges, or slight rubber band marks. Three is usually an indentations on the edge or severe rubber band damage. Four will not show up on a grade report because it indicates the card has been shaven and is therefore ungradeable.

Zones 1 & 5, 2 & 6, 3 & 7, 4 & 8 are all the same for corners or edges and therefore only the most noticeable corner or edge will be called on the grading report. For example: if edge 1 is called edge 5 cannot be called.

Surface: A surface graded as a 1 shows very slight damage (a slightly visible printer's mark or a small scratch). Large, noticeable printers marks, slight stains, or noticeable scratches are graded as two. A 3 indicates a bad stain or a one-sided crease. These creases are usually factory related. Four is for serious stains and creases that go through to both sides of a card.

Centering: The two zones for centering are the front and the back. Centering is completely mathematical. On the front of the card 0=55/45 or better 1=60/40, 2=70/30, 3=80/20 and 4=90/10 or worse. On the Back 0=60/40 or better 1=70/30, 2=80/20, 3=90/10 and 4=card art runs off cardboard. The computer only allows points to come off one side of a card for centering and for this the computer takes the worse centered of the two.






The Worlds First Grading Company with a Computer Calculated Grade








Company Info | Submissions | Grading Scale | Population Report
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Posted By: barrysloate

Of course, as Joe just pointed out, a whole other aspect of grading that is given very little consideration is eye appeal. This is especially true with Old Judges and other photographic cards.

Some N172's have gem photos but because there is a touch of paper loss they get a 20. Others have a light blurry photo but a clean back and square corners and get a 70.

Likewise, there are many T and E cards that have pristine fronts but a back scrape on the checklist and they just get murdered. I realize this only adds more subjectivity to an already complicated process, but eye appeal certainly is important to collectors.

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Posted By: peter chao

Peter S.,

So you are familiar with CTA, you may not agree with their approach to grading, but at least they tried to make the process of grading clear to the consumer. I'm not sure why they failed to survive.

Peter

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

All that complication, and what do you end up with once it's on the secondary market? A 7.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-Topps-Aaron-Musial-Batting-Leader-1-CTA-7-NR-MINT_W0QQitemZ300111325454QQihZ020QQcategoryZ16273 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

In my experience, CTA failed because they were willing to grade cards that were previously rejected as altered by multiple competing grading services. They had the same credibility as PRO or ASA.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Well Bruce I guess you and Peter C., who thinks a CTA 8 is a "true" 8, may have a difference of opinion on that one.

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Posted By: peter chao

I'm just judging CTA by the dozen or so cards I've seen graded by them. From your link that you posted, it looks like a solid 7 to me. So as far as I can tell CTA is a fair grader.

If there were other problems with their quality control then Bruce's comment above, was the first time I heard about it.

Peter

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Posted By: JK

John H - the grade is due to some minor paperloss on the back. I have no problem with the technical grade.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

The reason many grading services like CTA have come and gone over the years is that they have failed to establish credibility with the consumer. Because it really isn't that hard to assign an accurate numerical grade to a card, the reason in virtually every case is that the companies either lacked the expertise to detect altered cards, or perhaps knowingly graded them.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

You cannot determine a grading company's ability by a dozen or so cards. Substance over form. You may have liked their grading report but to give them top grading company honors based on your very limited exposure to them shows your inexperience in the hobby.

Bruce is exactly right about CTA. They seemed to have lack the ability to determine if a card was altered. I would modify what you wrote about them to say that if you see a CTA card graded an 8 it is a true CTA 8 in my opinion. (LOL).

My guess is that CTA stood for Can't Tell Alterations.

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Posted By: Joe

Kudos to E, Daniel:

"....accept that you are playing a game in which every participant has their role and enjoy it..........or else smash up the slabs and go birthday suit."


Hooray for the rational thought! The point is, you either accept the concept of grading or you don't. Of course the opinions of authenticators will differ by degrees. Time discussing this, as E, Daniel further points out, is time wasted.

The OTHER thing you either accept or don't is the idea that this whole shebang is on the up and up. Now, THIS is something worth discussing. When differences in degrees mean dollars, the possibility of corruption and fraud are very real. Overgrading AND undergrading for profit have probably occurred a few more times than once.

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Posted By: JimB

I like Scot's 1-10 scale. The major companies are not going to change at this point, but I do perfer your scale.
JimB

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Thanks, Jim. I agree with you there is little chance PSA or SGC would change now. PSA will continue to have too little granularity at the low end and too much at the high end. To their credit, SGC has distinct P and F grades; however, they are even sillier than PSA at the high end with "NM+", "NM/MT+", "Gem Mint" and "Pristine" grades. Maybe they should add a "Gem Mint+" grade just below "Pristine" for good measure. Scot

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Posted By: barrysloate

Gem Mint + is your proverbial PSA 11 or SGC 105.

There is an oddity to SGC's grading system, and it makes no sense. From 10 to 80 it increases in standard 10 point increments. Then, it goes to 84, 86, 88, 92, 96, and 98. Sometimes it jumps by 4 points, then by 2, then back to 4. Why?

One thing I might change is to leave SGC 10 as poor, and 20 as fair, but add an intermediate 15 grade. 10 would be for cards that had holes or corners missing; while 15 would be for heavily worn cards that were entirely intact. I don't know how much that would matter, but it would take into account the idea that there are different levels of beaters.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

How about this for a grading approach a numerical grade plus an estimated population. For brand new cards the estimated population would be simply marked unknown.

Peter

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Posted By: Brian

I like applesauce

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Posted By: JK

Peter,

Dont the grading companies already provide an estimated population in the form of their pop reports (and we know how accurate they are). What good would it do having it listed on the flip? Further, what makes you believe that the grading companies are any better at estimating how many of a card are in existence than any number of experts who post on this board on a regular basis?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

It need not be listed on the flip, it could be listed on a dog tag that is attached on a string that fits through a hole in the upper right corner of the flip.

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Posted By: Brian

But Peter, would the slab also serve as a whistle. It would be a wonderful world if I could make cool whistle sounds with the slab. Of course, the data on the slab would need to be inverted so I could read the population guesses while whistling.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Each grade should whistle a different note so the owner can know if the label's been switched. Off tone for off center cards.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Slabs whistle when you throw them hard enough, with just the right wrist action.

Peter, would you be able to resubmit your cards for reholdering every time the population of a card increases? Or decreases?

Barry, your comment about adding the tier for cards with holes works pretty well - for you and me. But what about the other people who think that an otherwise EX card with a pinhole should be a VG card? I think a pinhole should automatically bring a card down to POOR, but other people feel entirely opposite.

We can try and get grading companies to create a scale that works perfectly for our own preferences, sure.

Or we can just understand that the grading companies grade cards based on the standards that they developed, and buy cards using the grade as a guide but not a bible - which is what the grading companies intended, anyway.

-Al

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

If the pops change dramatically, under my proposal you could just swap out the dogtag without having to resubmit.