cards removed from scrapbook

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Posted By: Rich W

I have been fortunate to handle several fantastic 19th century tobacco card scrapbooks over the past couple of years. I have been rather successful removing cards from the scrapbooks, but most of the cards are left with a glue staining or toning. Also, I get a few cards with very minor paper loss. The grading companies absolutely murder the cards with these types of back damage. I am interested to hear people's opinions on compromised value for these examples. Obviously they are still collectible, but do you feel the value is severely compromised in most cases? Or can you live with the card at a high percentage of retail (obviously rarity, desire, etc. play a factor)despite the staining or paper loss?

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's possible that a professional paper conservator could remove the cards more carefully and avoid most or all of the back damage. You would have to pay him a fee, but if it translated into higher grades, it would more than pay for itself. Either way, my guess is you are buying the cards right so you're probably ahead of the game even with the back damage. But there's no way to get a high grade with paper loss, that's just the way it is.

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Posted By: jP

grading co. shouldnt be so brutal with grading cards that were in a scrapbook. i mean thats what people did back then ,thats how you collected back in those days. i will still buy a card even if it was in a scrapbook and has glue and paperloss, to me the front of the card is most important, that is where all the life and magic of the card is in the front.

c'mon grading companies be a little less critical.

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

Has anyone ever seen an 1988 Scrapps "card" that hasn't been in a scrapbook at one time?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Years ago, some people thought the Scrapps were tobacco cards (Scrapps brand tobacco), in part because of the 'tobacco stains' often found on back. The brown stains are 1800s glue, from the cards being pasted into an album or such.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The Scrapps are so delicate that it would be nearly impossible for them to survive unless they were glued in a scrapbook. Did you know they were given the name "Scrapps" by Rob Lifson? Or so the legend goes.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It wasn't long ago that the cards were catalogued as 'Scrapps Tobacco' in some price guides. People even did research trying to find record of Scrapps brand cigarettes.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Ive removed cards from a scrapbook and received pretty nice grades even with some toning (sgc 60 and 80). However, if there is glue on the back or paperloss, you are correct - you will get a much lower grade than it might otherwise warrant. I love trotting out this card because its such a perfect example (paperloss on the reverse from scrapbook removal accounts for the grade).

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

and same thing......SGC has given me 70's and 80's on some N162's from a scrapbook. Others have had some back damage. I would not pay anywhere near retail for BASEBALL cards that had print on the back that was compromised UNLESS it was something that was really scarce or something I needed even as a filler till another specimen came along.

That said....the stuff you've been selling over last few months, for the most part, is mainstream A&G stuff that you can find out there so even in decent shape they sell for $10 to $15, so you can pretty often get the $7-$10 for a compromised card because someone needs it to finish a set (I speak from experience because I've bought quite a few from you over that period....only a couple with back damage but a few with printing on them as well). The tougher stuff like A&G Large cards or other manufacturers or sets that are tougher have been bringing more for you from what I've seen--even with damage.

JMO........

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Posted By: James Gallo

I think the back needs to be taken into account when grading. Sure the front is the most important part, but you are not grading a one sided picture you are grading a full card. As such the whole thing needs to be looked over.

I have some cards with heavy paper loss on the back and one that is similar to the card Josh shows above where the front looks EX or better but there is paper loss to the back.
I like these types of cards especially for high priced cards as it gives a very nice looking front for a fraction of the price.

I have an 1888 R&S Scrap that I just sent to SGC and it had almost no evidence of being glued down. There was a SUPER tiny amount of surface paper from a page that easily scrapped off (I didn't Soak it). It was really clean so it should be interesting how it gets graded.

Regardless I think the advice of having a professional look at the book might help, depending on how good they are and what they will charge.

James Gallo

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Rich W.

Tom:

That's about what I was figuring, and having sold several thousand in the past 12 months, that's kind of the consensus I've gotten. I've been trying to get a better feel from the grading companies so I don't send in 100 with glue stains and find that 95 come back as Poor-to-Fairs. My interested has been piqued since I saw an A & G Flags cards in PSA 5 do $153.00. I'm guessing it is a fluke.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I agree that the back needs to be accounted for in the technical grade. However, I will take the card pictured above over most sgc 30s or 40s any day. In fact, I sold my donovan sgc 40 because it couldnt compete with this card as far as presentation.

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Posted By: Rich W.

Barry:

Thanks for your response. I am wary regarding paper conservators because I've seen some shoddy work in the past. Ironically, this past scrapbook that I bought had the baseball cards removed previously by a "paper expert", and sold separately (I did not buy these). All the baseball cards (specifically the N28's)exhibited 40-50% paper loss on the back. The N28's left in my scrapbook came out with only light glue staining and no paper loss, and were, in fact, some of the easier cards I removed from the scrapbook. I fear giving thousands of dollars in cards to a conservator who may come back with a bill and an "Oops!".

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Posted By: Rich W.

Personally, I would like a grading company to offer a more succinct grading system to 19th century cards. Nine years ago, my buddy and I were fortunate to buy one of the largest group of N300 Mayo cards known to date, a hoard of 200+ in a scrapbook. Some came out with back damage, and when we sent lists out to prospective buyers, we listed a grade for the front and a percentage of back damage (with detail) on the back. This was very well received. Although it would be a nightmare for each grading companies' registries, I think a weighted average or a dual grade would better serve the 19th century collector. I would much rather have a N300 Anson with EX front and 50% back damage over a Good condition example with a crease and rounded corners.

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Posted By: barrysloate

While I agree you would want to use a good conservator, I don't think they would charge thousands of dollars just to remove some from a scrapbook. I would guess a few hundred is more realistic. After all, how many high end cards are we talking about- a dozen or two? But I understand your being concerned.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The fee from a top conservator is about $300 for a clean removal (in most cases). I contemplated having the scrap book remnant cleaned off a nice OJ I have. I'm sure it would have increased the value of the card by far but I figured the album remnant gave it a little character.