Now that the dust has settled....observations regarding The 2018 Cleveland National

[Vintagecatcher]

Every year, many of us wait with great anticipation for The National Convention.

Whether we are lucky enough to attend or whether we simple are excited to hear about the show and the great purchases that occur following this grand event.

Is it just me or was this year's show not up to the standards of past shows?

I would love to hear in greater detail from those who were fortunate enough to attend this year's show what they felt about the show.

Was there much less vintage pre-war to be had? We all come to expect the prices to be inflated at the National, but was this year worse then past years?

Has the pre-war material simply dried up?

Look forward to your responses!

Patrick

[ullmandds]

In years past...usually I go to Chicago and it ends up costing $1500 just for the trip...most cards are overpriced and I end up regretting that I could have stayed home and bought a babe ruth card with the $$$$.

This year I decided to go last minute...Lee Behrens offered a free bed one night, and a home base at his table...combine that with a mid $200 flight...a free hotel with points for fri night...it was a very cheap trip!

I liked the venue...I found it much easier to navigate than Chicago...there were a lot of food options...ladies hawking beer like at a ballgame. People complained about the parking but I did not have a car. It really added to my experience being able to hang out at Lee and Glen Mechanick's booth...Glen has some sick 19th century stuff and it was cool to have people coming up wanting to sell stuff. As per usual most tables were ebay shrines with overpriced cards that we see on ebay every day.

There were definitely deals to be had. I feel like I got a very fair price on an r315 ruth. I've been looking for a nice centered 53 bowman whitey ford for a long time. In one row at the national there were 2 similar examples...neither centered well enough for my taste...one graded one not. The graded one was $350 ...the non graded $70. I thought I'd have patience to sort through bargain boxes but I did not.

Friday I spent most of the day there and by 1-2 I was walking dead...exhausted!!!!! I tried to go through the whole show once then I circled back to see if the ruth was still there and I snagged it.

Green cobb...being the hot card in the hobby now was scantly represented. Most examples for sale were lower grade and shamelessly overpriced...one Pathetic example with the corner torn off had an asking price of $2300. All cobbs were hot...overpriced dietsches sometimes not even 1907 examples priced at rookie prices.

Goudey Ruths were flying off the shelves when fairly priced. There were a fe handfuls of oddball ruth issues mostly 150% priced. Lots of rookies at the auction houses.

Unbeilievable stuff on display at SGC and the big houses. I saw 3 wagners...pristine mantles...handfuls of ruth rookies...amazing autographed card collection in next REA...incredible game used ruth bats...tons of rtuh auto balls.

I enjoyed it this year!

[Vintagecatcher]

Thanks Pete...appreciate the feedback.

Patrick

[Exhibitman]

One thing that surprises me year in and year out are the people who complain about the high prices at the show. Not directed at you specifically, Peter. Perhaps it is a side effect of eBay and all the auctions but it seems that collectors have forgotten how to negotiate. I mean, does anyone whining about prices stop to consider that these are asking prices and that offers are expected? I price my stuff well over 'market' for the show but I expect that people will haggle, bundle and seek a discount.

As far as the OP question, the place is a cornucopia of stuff but as is the case anywhere, if you are looking for a specific prewar card from an obscure set with a few examples, you probably won't find one. Nor, realistically, should you expect to find one except perhaps in an auctioneer's inventory.

The other thing is, you have to dig. Even if you don't enjoy sifting through bargain boxes, you still have to attack stacks of stuff, or you do not get a fair read on the inventory at the show. To give an example, I am always looking out for rare Exhibit cards. One of the cards on my list is the Salutations Johnny Rizzo, which is one of the toughest cards to find but since Rizzo is a nobody is occasionally overlooked. Now, on my table it would be a showcase item because I know the demand is so high for the card. I saw one example in the entire show and it was buried in one of several stacks of Exhibits at one booth. It was priced properly at $600 but it was buried in there. If I'd still needed a Rizzo to finish my set and I'd not have gone through every stack of Exhibits in the room, I'd have whined about the lack of supply of rare vintage cards.


Other impressions re baseball:

--Ruth cards have been strong at auction over the last year or two and the prices I saw appeared to reflect anticipated further gains. I think I noticed more Ruth cards than usual.
--Certain hot issues had very few cards overall at the show. Mendelsohns, I think I saw only a few. Not unexpected: why would you sell into a rising market.
--Very few Western regionals. I think having the show over and over again in the East is hurting the breadth of the show. It is simply too time consuming for West dealers to drive in and too expensive and difficult for West dealers to ship in a lot of inventory. I was pretty much limited to what I could carry on the plane from LA.

[ullmandds]

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

One thing that surprises me year in and year out are the people who complain about the high prices at the show. Not directed at you specifically, Peter. Perhaps it is a side effect of eBay and all the auctions but it seems that collectors have forgotten how to negotiate. I mean, does anyone whining about prices stop to consider that these are asking prices and that offers are expected? I price my stuff well over 'market' for the show but I expect that people will haggle, bundle and seek a discount.

As far as the OP question, the place is a cornucopia of stuff but as is the case anywhere, if you are looking for a specific prewar card from an obscure set with a few examples, you probably won't find one. Nor, realistically, should you expect to find one except perhaps in an auctioneer's inventory.

The other thing is, you have to dig. Even if you don't enjoy sifting through bargain boxes, you still have to attack stacks of stuff, or you do not get a fair read on the inventory at the show. To give an example, I am always looking out for rare Exhibit cards. One of the cards on my list is the Salutations Johnny Rizzo, which is one of the toughest cards to find but since Rizzo is a nobody is occasionally overlooked. Now, on my table it would be a showcase item because I know the demand is so high for the card. I saw one example in the entire show and it was buried in one of several stacks of Exhibits at one booth. It was priced properly at $600 but it was buried in there. If I'd still needed a Rizzo to finish my set and I'd not have gone through every stack of Exhibits in the room, I'd have whined about the lack of supply of rare vintage cards.


Other impressions re baseball:

--Ruth cards have been strong at auction over the last year or two and the prices I saw appeared to reflect anticipated further gains. I think I noticed more Ruth cards than usual.
--Certain hot issues had very few cards overall at the show. Mendelsohns, I think I saw only a few. Not unexpected: why would you sell into a rising market.
--Very few Western regionals. I think having the show over and over again in the East is hurting the breadth of the show. It is simply too time consuming for West dealers to drive in and too expensive and difficult for West dealers to ship in a lot of inventory. I was pretty much limited to what I could carry on the plane from LA.

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

Obviously, HE is a master negotiator and got you to negotiate against yourself!

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

Thats his loss. The polite thing to do is to counter with his asking price to bring you back to his BATNA. Guy probably just doesnt know how to negotiate.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

Insulted? Really? Though I wasn't in Cleveland this year I have had similar experiences with dealers over the years. My observation with these kind of dealers is that they are either Type A personalities with ego's the size of the room and are projecting their ego on you or they are the socially awkward type who shouldn't be in the business of dealing with the public. I try to find and spend money with dealers who are pleasant, greet you at their table, engage in conversation and are willing to negotiate. Makes the whole card collecting experience much more enjoyable.

Bob

[hcv123]

I was there with my kids Wednesday and Thursday. We were at A/C 2 years ago and Cleveland 3 years ago. At the 2 prior shows I/we were frantically hunting for rare Roberto Clemente cards from a very short want list - came up empty both times. Kids had fun - custom baseball cards and some boxes of new cards (baseball, basketball and pokemon). Both the earlier shows were big disappointments for me.
This year was different - I expected to find no new Clemente items (didn't stop us from asking though) - I decided this year was about my kids and getting them more involved (we have been collecting Pittsburgh Pirates team sets) - This year was great! The kids picked out A LOT of cards for our team sets and had a lot of fun interacting with dealers and learning the art of negotiation. Got some great Pokemon cards (at least that's what they tell me as I do not speak fluent Pokemon). We rode the ferris wheel a few times. Go figure, the year I go in expecting to find nothing Clemente - I find 2 great items!!
It seemed like there was more foot traffic than I recall seeing last 2 shows - anyone notice this?
I went in with very low expectations and just a desire to have a great time with my kids - we had a great show and experience and picked up some great stuff.
I do concur regarding the "museum pricing" on stuff - I was looking for a few graded Clemente cards to add to my registry set and while I did find probably a couple dozen that fit the bill - every single one of them was priced between 15% and 50% over current market price (that is after attempted negotiation) - None of them were that special that I could justify paying that much more. That I couldn't find one negotiable to market price was just a little bit frustrating.

[packs]

My opinion is that the dealers are the biggest offenders of "hobby disappearance". I went to the National in Atlantic City. It was the same museum collections I see all the time. Nothing was for sale at a price that reflected what was being sold. I didn't leave that show feeling like the National was anything I'd travel for unless I was after an elusive signer who was appearing.

[T205 GB]

I was there Thursday till Saturday afternoon. There were some bargains to be had. You had to dig and grind for them but it was worth the patience. Picked up a nice 56 Mantle and the next morning a dealer had to have it. Got to meet up with some old friends and some new guys also. It was hard to meet up afterwards because of how spread out everyone was. Overall the show was great. The city was not impressive.

To bad there is not a Southern National in the end of May. Cities like Baton Rouge, Little Rock, Atlanta, Tallahassee, Macon, ect. I often wonder what would be found at these shows. A small hoard of tango eggs cards or Red Sun’s.

[topcat61]

You know, even Lionel Carter complained about the prices at the 1972 Detroit Show. Value is a double edged sword, but in my humble opinion, the hobby isn't today how Jefferson Burdick and company envisioned it to be. There are plenty of options on purchasing what you want either at the National or ebay and in many cases you can simply walk away if you don't feel comfortable with the transaction -personally, I'd feel better doing that than to overspend on a card leaving me with that pit at the bottom of your stomach feeling -you know the kind, most of us do...I wanted to attend this National but Camden Yards kept calling my name, so next year Chicago it is and I cant wait! Perhaps I will meet some of you fine folks, shake your hands and talk about cards.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by topcat61

...I wanted to attend this National but Camden Yards kept calling my name, so next year Chicago it is and I cant wait! ...

Yes, Camden Yards is a wonderful stadium, but I don't understand how it could be calling your name this year. Oh wait, I think I get it - you went to root for the visiting team!