Joe Mauer announces retirement: HOF? Make Your Case:

[Yastrzemski Sports]

When we discuss a HOF candidate the player is compared to others at his position. Mauer played the majority of his career at catcher so any comparisons have to be done among other catchers. Mauers stats are 2123 hits, .306 ba, 923 rbi, 1018 runs along with 6 as, 3 gg and an mvp award. First, there are 4 other catchers who won mvp. 3 are in the hof and the other is Thurman Munson who would be and probably should be. Among hof catchers, His hit total is 3rd behind Berra and Fisk and his BA is 3rd behind Cochrane and Dickey (tied with Lombardi). His run and rbi totals are in the range of other hof catchers. His stats are good enough compared to others already there. The mvp award is huge and weighs heavily for a candidate because it shows dominance. Not every player who wins an mvp will be in the hof but for many it will make the difference to put someone in. When I put all of the factors together I think Mauer will be a HOF member as one of the best catchers of his generation whose numbers put him among the all time greats.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nomar just goes to show why you can't anoint a 25-26-27 year old young man as a lock all-time great or even HOFer.

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nomar just goes to show why you can't anoint a 25-26-27 year old young man as a lock all-time great or even HOFer.

Very unfortunate about Nomar. He had a heck of a career trajectory from 1997-2003.

Your statement is 99.99% true... with one exception! 27-year old Mike Trout, who is already rated as the 7th or 8th most valuable center fielder ever based on the ever popular WAR and JAWS metrics. He barely has over 1,100 hits, but I'd bet if Trout's career ended today, he would still eventually be enshrined at Cooperstown, simply due to the insane level of value he provided over his 7 year career.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l.../jaws_CF.shtml

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[packs]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

When we discuss a HOF candidate the player is compared to others at his position. Mauer played the majority of his career at catcher so any comparisons have to be done among other catchers. Mauers stats are 2123 hits, .306 ba, 923 rbi, 1018 runs along with 6 as, 3 gg and an mvp award. First, there are 4 other catchers who won mvp. 3 are in the hof and the other is Thurman Munson who would be and probably should be. Among hof catchers, His hit total is 3rd behind Berra and Fisk and his BA is 3rd behind Cochrane and Dickey (tied with Lombardi). His run and rbi totals are in the range of other hof catchers. His stats are good enough compared to others already there. The mvp award is huge and weighs heavily for a candidate because it shows dominance. Not every player who wins an mvp will be in the hof but for many it will make the difference to put someone in. When I put all of the factors together I think Mauer will be a HOF member as one of the best catchers of his generation whose numbers put him among the all time greats.

Elston Howard won an MVP too. He's not in the HOF either. I don't think the MVP means much for Mauer. The season was a total aberration. He never came close to repeating that performance. Among catchers all time he's probably the best pure hitter, but that's it. He was never an elite all world catcher like Johnny Bench or Pudge (cheating aside). I don't think he was as dominating a player as you're making him out to be. His career OPS of 827 is lower than Jorge Posada's 848.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

You’re right on Howard. An oversight on my part. Ellie’s career numbers were well below hof caliber but Mauers are not. I’ll use your own words - among catchers probably the best pure hitter. That’s saying a lot. If you’re the best then you belong among the immortals.
Posadas numbers are 1664 hits, 275 hr, .273 ba, 900 runs, 1065 rbi and 5 was rings. You could make an argument for Jorge but there is a much better argument for Mauer. Ops+ is a better indication of a players value taking ballparks and league into account - Mauers is 124, Posada is 121. Jorge has a higher ops because he hit a lot more hr - probably because he played in Yankee stadium. He has a lower ops+ because everyone hits more hr in Yankee stadium. 3 batting titles and an MVP make Mauer an elite hitting catcher and gold glove awards help to show his value at the position which Jorge does not have.
An mvp award means he was the best player in the league for a season and he received all first place votes. If that’s not dominant then I’m not sure what is.

Originally Posted by packs

Elston Howard won an MVP too. He's not in the HOF either. I don't think the MVP means much for Mauer. The season was a total aberration. He never came close to repeating that performance. Among catchers all time he's probably the best pure hitter, but that's it. He was never an elite all world catcher like Johnny Bench or Pudge (cheating aside). I don't think he was as dominating a player as you're making him out to be. His career OPS of 827 is lower than Jorge Posada's 848.

[packs]

Dominant for one season only. That's not a HOFer. He wasn't anywhere near elite any other time in his career. And when I say pure hitter, I mean able to hit 300. There are plenty of players who hit 300 over their careers (like Mattingly) who are not HOF players (even catchers like Bubbles Hargrave; Manny Sanguillen hit 300 as a catcher though his career average is 296).

Even while trying to take away from Posada, you listed a stat that Mauer leads by only 3 points. Posada was off the ballot in one vote and despite what might be popular opinion, I would take Posada over Mauer every time they stood next to each other.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Dominant for one season only. That's not a HOFer. He wasn't anywhere near elite any other time in his career. And when I say pure hitter, I mean able to hit 300. There are plenty of players who hit 300 over their careers (like Mattingly) who are not HOF players (even catchers like Bubbles Hargrave; Manny Sanguillen hit 300 as a catcher though his career average is 296).

Even while trying to take away from Posada, you listed a stat that Mauer leads by only 3 points. Posada was off the ballot in one vote and despite what might be popular opinion, I would take Posada over Mauer every time they stood next to each other.

It's insane to think Mauer belongs in the HOF when Mattingly does not, whatever the shortcomings of Mattingly's career stats.

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's insane to think Mauer belongs in the HOF when Mattingly does not, whatever the shortcomings of Mattingly's career stats.

I think this is due to comparing him to his peers at his position. Mauer ranks as the 7th most valuable catcher ever when measuring via WAR/JAWS. Mattingly ranks as the 40th most valuable 1st baseman: https://www.baseball-reference.com/l.../jaws_1B.shtml

Mattingly had an outstanding stretch from 1983 to 1987 primarily, including an MVP, and 8 gold gloves. But when compared to the sheer number of heavy hitters at 1st base all-time in the HOF, he simply falls way down the list, unfortunately.

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[clydepepper]

Since Baines (but, he's such a nice fellow) got in, isn't it time to start a grass-roots campaign for Paul Lo Duca?

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[packs]

double post