17 new Hall of Famers!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

http://baseballhalloffame.org/news/2006/060227.htm

Wow!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Bruce Sutter just got a whole bunch of company... although I don't know how many of the folks elected are still alive?

I guess relatives will give their speeches for the deceased?

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Posted By: Chad

The link isn't working. All it says for sure is Effa Manley.

--Chad

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Ray Brown
Willard Brown
Andy Cooper
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Biz Mackey
Effa Manley
José Méndez
Alex Pompez
Cum Posey
Louis Santop
Mule Suttles
Ben Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
Sol White
J.L. Wilkinson
Jud Wilson


-Ryan

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I fixed the link now.

Crap. Buck O'Neill lives 15 minutes away from me... and got screwed.

I was hoping to go visit him and congratulate him.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

It's nice to see the other guys get in, but as far as I'm concerned, the HOF is still a joke without Minnie Minoso ...

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Posted By: Chad

Some surprises there. I can't believe Buck didn't make it. Andy Cooper is probably the biggest surprise, but he's deserving. Effa Manley and Alex Pompez I just don't get, to be honest.

--Chad

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Posted By: Chad

I'm guessing the committee didn't include him because he didn't spend much time in the Negro Leagues. He deserves it, tho, and I think it's up to the Veteran's committee to get it done.

--Chad

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Posted By: Chad

But the more I think about it, the more irritated I am by Buck O'Neil not making it. In a world where Tommy Lasorda is a HOFer, why the hell isn't Buck?

--Chad

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

I would guess that O'Neil didn't make it for the same reason Minoso didn't. While I think O'Neil fully deserves election for his overall contributions to baseball, I don't think he deserves it as a Negro Leaguer in this election. Every other player except Minoso had a better claim than he did when it comes to induction based upon play in the Negro Leagues.

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Posted By: Sean Coe

Suprised Dick"Cannonball"Redding didn't make it.

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Posted By: Chad

Which is too bad for Buck. Can't get in as a NLer because a lot of what he accomplished was in MLB, and can't get in through the Veteran's because he didn't play in MLB. Crimony. Bud, where are you? Take a break from extorting money from D.C. and put Buck in the Hall!

--Chad

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Posted By: Chris Counts

I just sent a ramblin' rant off to Cooperstown. I know it won't do much good, but it felt better. I was going to go off on this thread, but I feel it's a bit like kicking your dog after a bad day at work. You're in my Hall of Fame, Minnie ...

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Posted By: Matt Goebel

I agree the Minoso should be in the HOF, but not on a Negro League ballot. Send a letter to the veterans committee, they are the real culprits.

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Posted By: Wesley

The new inductees are not what many have guessed. The whole selection process seems so arbitary.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Chris,

If it makes you feel any better, I would have flown to Cooperstown and picketed the HOF if Minoso got in unless literally all 38 of the other Negro Leaguers got in as well. I agree that he should be in, but I take into consideration his playing days in Cuba as well as the Majors. His Negro League stint was so short I don't even consider it when evaluating his career.

He shouldn't have even been on this list and it would have been an injustice had he gotten in this way.


Kenny,

Why couldn't Buck O'Neil's entire baseball life have been considered instead of just his playing days? They obviously wanted some Negro League executives and owners in, why not Buck? Oddly, had he been a worse player I think he might have had a better chance of getting in. Maybe some voters considered him a player, while others as a manager/coach/scout/ambassador. He is not Hall-worthy in any one of those categories. I agree with you that when you add them up, Buck O'Neil should be in the Hall of Fame.

-Ryan

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Posted By: dennis

i hope this is only a temporary setback for minnie and the veterens comitee puts him in.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Most glaring omissions:

1. Dick Redding
2. John Beckwith
3. Dick Lundy
4. Buck O'Neil

There are others like Oms, Marcelle and Brewer that also should have gotten in before some of the ones that did, but Redding and Beckwith are the only two that I would truly call mistakes.

Most surprising inductees:

1. Sol White
2. Alejandro Pompez
3. Andy Cooper

None of those are undeserving, but there are others that are much more deserving. The problem is, Sol White was a good player but not HOF-caliber. He is in because he wrote a book. If Sol White is in, Buck O'Neil should be in. Neither of them as players, but both of them for their overall contributions to the game.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Chad

I'd include him as a glaring omission as well. It'll be interesting to see the encyclopedia the HOF is going to publish to get an idea of what they based their votes on. I like Andy Cooper, but I'm surprised he got in and I had him rated higher than most people. Home Run Johnson was a truly great player. He hit better than Ben Taylor and played shortstop and he played at a high level forever. I really hope that the HOF comes to its senses and reapproaches the NEgro elagues again in a few years after the dust has settled. The work here isn't done yet.

--Chad

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Posted By: t206King

Well to me, Negro leaguers shouldnt be in. i'm not racist or anything but its like electing minor leaguers into the majors. ppl say it was like major league baseball. but how can u compare the two leagues? just by words? or the players? doesnt make sense.

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's gratifying to see all those fine players who toiled for years without recognition finally get their due. On the other hand, inducting 17 players in one day does dilute the process. As for collectors, now those who collect HOFers need to find 17 more cards, many that are extremely rare or don't exist. It's going to be nuts if every time one of these player's cards or autographs comes up for sale a hundred guys will have to bid on them at the same time. Some sense of order is needed here.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Barry,

Only 7 of them have cards.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

t206king,

No, you don't sound racist at all.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Boy am I glad that my niche collecting doesn't require me to have one of every HOF player... holy smoke, it's going to be the deepest pockets picking up the cards of the new HOF players that have a limited number of cards to choose from...

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Posted By: Chad

You saved me from writing a long post I'd probably regret.

--Chad

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Posted By: Chad

And to think, Matt Goebbel had one on the BST thread a month ago for 1500 bucks. Talk about an underpriced card!

--Chad

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Good for Sol White, he should be in... He was much more to baseball than just a book.

I think 17 is too many, but I'm not big on political correctness, and that is what this is, although I do have respect for Frank Robinson.

And Buck should have gone in. I'd have been happy with Buck and Sol.


But since reading Mr. James' book about the politics of the Hall, I've come to some conclusions from which I cannot be dissuaded...

1. Too many players are in the Hall.

2. After understanding the origins and purposes of the leagues and their formation, and the evils of gambling, I firmly believe Pete Rose should be allowed inside the Hall for the day, any day he buys an admission ticket, as a vistor/patron.

3. And that ever since they let Kirby Puckett and Gary Carter in there, it isn't really that big of a deal.


Buck should have gone in ahead of about 3 dozen of the current members, and all of the 17 just announced.

I've reached a point in life where I just don't know if my thoughts have matured or manured, I just know I have them, and I'm pretty firmly set in my ways. I don't mind living in a democracy, and tagging along with the majority decissions. Just so long as the majority doesn't automatically presume that they are right all of the time. And this could be one of those times.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ryan- Only seven have cards, but what about wire photos, team photos, and autographs? How are all the collectors going to fill in the holes? It will be impossible. And I agree with Frank that there are already too many HOFers. You can't put Babe Ruth and Bill Mazeroski in the same category.

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Posted By: Paul

Hal,

I'm curious to know what you plan to do about Pete Hill. I'm looking for a satisfying explanation why neither one of us needs him.

Paul

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Posted By: Chad

1.Invest in clones so you can harvest their organs and keep yourself alive for a couple of hundred years.

2. Pray that Matt's descendants don't like baseball.

Kidding Matt! I'm kidding! (sort of...)

--Chad

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Posted By: Matt Goebel

Barry,

This day isn't a surprise, we've known it has been coming for years, so there are some of us collectors who were prepared. Anyway, there have been feeding frenzies for E107's, N167's and other rare and important cards, so why not Negro League HOFers?

Frank,

Buck is a greast guy and a very sexy choice, but I think if you were to ask him he would say all 12 players that were elected were more deserving than he was.

OH - and if wanting to keep all Negro Leaguers out of the HOF isn't racist, then i don't know what is. While we're at it let's kick out Aaron, Mays and Clemente for good measure!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Matt, I believe you... Buck would say that. Would those guys, though? That is part of why Buck should be in.

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Posted By: Scott Gross

I think Effa Manley falls into to "Tinker to Evers to Chance" name recognition category. If you gave the original list to a array of baseball fans (from obsessive to casual), and asked them to pick out a recognizable name and give a one sentence bio, the majority would say: "Effa Manley, she was a black businesswoman who owned a Negro League team." Hate to say it, but if not for this board, I (closer to the obsessive end of scale) would not know who Pete Hill is (please excuse dangling participle).

And ........ I have absolutely no problem with that. Name recognition is a (if not "the") fundamental part of business, and baseball is a business. Why is the HOF photo of Mrs. Manley a beautifully posed professional portrait? Because Mrs. Manley posed for a beautifully posed professional portrait. If it were not for self-promotion, we'd still just be playing pickup games every other Sunday at the Athletic Club of Philadelphia.

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Posted By: Wesley

Scott,

Effa Manley, according to the AP article, is white.

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Posted By: Chad

Andy Cooper, by all acoounts, was a hell of a human being. In fact, he was Buck's manager when Buck first came to the KC Monarchs. Everybody seemed to love the guy. Sadly, he died suddenly at the age of 41. I'm sure Buck will be disappointed today, but I be he's jazzed that his former mentor, Cooper, got in. He's probably also ecstatic Willard Brown, his former teammate and player, made it and that JL Wilkinson, the man who paid his salary got in. All in all, I think it's a happy day for Buck because it's a happy day for the Monarchs.

--Chad

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Posted By: Jeff Sherman

The scuttlebutt was that Buck's playing days numbers weren't that impressive, but NO ONE has been a greater asset to the consciousness-raising of the sports fan than he has, and its just criminal that he isn't given the ultimate recognition for his ultimate ambassadorship.... maybe next year.... he is such a class act, and a joy to listen to, I hope he is around when the electors wake up and bestow the accolade he most fittingly deserves....

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Posted By: Matt Goebel

Chad - well said!

Frank,

I'm actually not disagreeing that Buck O'neil should be a HOFer, I was more just taking exception to your comment that he is MORE deserving than the other guys.

Matt

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Posted By: jay behrens

My understading is that the committee was a one time deal. I don't think we will see any more Negro Leaguers inducted unless it is thru the VC. Minoso and O'Niel may eventually get in thru the VC, but I doubt seriously we will see anyone else from NLs inducted any time in the near future, if ever again.

Frank, I know Carter wasn't a popular choice, but who was a better catcher in the 80s? I would much rather have had him then Fisk, Parrish or Boone as their prime days as a catcher were already past them by then.

As for Puckett, he got for a number of reasons. He his numbers weren't spectacular, but they were respectable. He was a great ambassador for the game while he played. The thing clinched him for it was the 1991 WS and his "climb my back and I'll carry you guys" statement and then lived up to it. Being a media darling helps a lot. He's not the perfect hoice, but he is more than worthy. Now if you want to talk about Ross Youngs, Marranville and other questionable players from the 30s, then you've got a better argument for unworthy choices.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: James Feagin

From the HOF website:

"The research resulted in a raw narrative and bibliography of nearly 800 pages and a statistical database, which includes 3,000 day-by-day records, league leaders and all-time leaders. The research was culled from box scores from 128 newspapers of sanctioned league games played from 1920-54.

With the research now complete, the study includes sanctioned league game box scores from almost 100% of games played in the 1920s, in excess of 90% of the box scores from games played in the 1930s and box scores from 50-70% of games played in the 1940s and 50s, during which time the various leagues began to disband and newspapers ceased to report game information. The end result is the most comprehensive compilation of statistics on the Negro leagues that have ever been accumulated."

I suppose the nominations and inductions of the 17 were based on these newly compiled statistics? If they weren't, when will these stats be released so that we can judge for ourselves if they are "Hall" worthy? I never have had a problem with the caliber of player that the Negro Leaguers were, but legends spin legends which spin legends. Will these statisics actually quantify how many HR's Josh Gibson hit, the Wins and SO's of Paige, and how many SB's Cool Papa Bell had. I hope the committee had some facts to back these inductions up, and not some myths or legends of how great these players were purported to be. Otherwise, it will look like Hall of Fame affirmative action (Frankie Frisch where are you) if it comes out that some of these players were just good, and not great.

Jim

Jim

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Posted By: Mike

Mr. Wakefield. I am a pre war collector through and through. Always have been. But I must disagree with you on the Kirby Puckett issue. He had 2000 hits in his first 10 seasons. I believe only he and Paul Waner did that. I am not a huge fan of his, but you must admit that is quite a feat. Not his fault he took it in the noggin'. Griffey was once quoted as saying" that Puck was the best player in the game" while he was active. Just throwing my two cents worth in. If Puck had played in the negro leagues, everybody would be screaming bloody murder if he wasn't elected into the hall. Not trying to start anything, just a comment.

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Posted By: howard

I don't agree that is is necessarily racist to say that Negro Leaguers should be kept out of the Hall of Fame but I think it is ridiculous to compare them to minor leaguers. Minor leaguers were not major leaguers, for the most part, because they were not good enough for the majors. True, many years ago there were some very good minor leagues that held onto their star players but the best ones still usually ended up in the majors. Black players, on the other hand, were BARRED from the majors, so even the best ones never got a shot. Is there any reason to believe that the best of them were not Hall of Fame caliber players?

Thanks,
Howard

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Posted By: Adam Smith

"OH - and if wanting to keep all Negro Leaguers out of the HOF isn't racist, then i don't know what is. While we're at it let's kick out Aaron, Mays and Clemente for good measure!"

That is asinine. Aaron, Mays and Clemente played and excelled in the major league.

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Posted By: rp60

Its a big list..Funny how this vets group has no problem with former negro leagers. I wonder if the same size list could be put together with white 19th century players?

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Adam,

Mays and Aaron DID play in the Negro Leagues. I think the point was that had Mays, Clemente and Aaron been born 20 years earlier, all of them would have spent their careers in the Negro Leagues, not the Majors. We'd be having this discussion about why Mays, Aaron and Clemente didn't deserve to be in the Hall because they played in the Negro Leagues or because there are already too many players in the Hall.

For those who believe there are already too many players in the Hall of Fame, please answer this question: Of the 17 just elected to day, which ones aren't worthy and why?

-Ryan

P.S. rp60 (maybe use your name when you post), do you think there are 17 19th century players not already in the HOF that should be? I know of a few that certainly should. Are there 17? There definitely are some other 19th century players that should be in. The question is, how many?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Mike

Kirby didn't have 2000 hits his first 10 seasons.... unless you are counting women he beat on.

He had 2304 hits in 12 years.... a HOF season???

He had 308 hits his last 2 years, that means he had 1996 hits the first 10. A bunch of hits, but not enough. If that is what it takes, let KP step back outside, and put Vada Pinson in, or Lave Cross. I'd like to see George Van Haltren in there, or Fred Lange.

If I could put one guy in, it would be Ed Reulbach. His connections with taking up for players in the Players' Association really hampered his playing opportunities at the end of his career. Otherwise, he'd have numbers that would demand his induction. How does it go... Every year Ed pitched his walks plus hits allowed totalled less than his innings pitched, something no HOF pitcher can claim. Pitched 2 shutouts in ML in one day. One of the best pitching performances in a WS game in the first 50 years of the WS. He should be in.

But I'd rather have the ability to pull a couple of dozen out.

A lot of folks liked Kirby, especially the press. His 1987 WS helped his Hall vote. A likeable guy. But not HOF material.

I used to work on acquiring HOF autographs, and have a bunch. But when that meant writing Kirby and Gary Carter (GARY CARTER, why not Ted Simmons before Gary [Ted has more hits than KP...]) that is when I backed off on it. I'd rather have Simmons' autograph than KP or GC.

Still, it is obvious you love your baseball, so keep Kirby on a pedestal.

Knowing a lot about baseball is like knowing a lot about whittling.

Baseball is a lot like church, many attend, few understand.

And I must be wrong about my feelings about the Hall, all of those smart baseball writers voted him in.

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Posted By: Genaro

John Holway is as much a authority on the subject as anyone.
Holway states in his book that black big leaguers won 57.1% of the games against white major leaguers. And Don’t tell me when white players didn’t want to win vs. the games were very spirited. Babe Ruth struck out 3 times vs. Satchel Paige and said he’s glad he didn’t have to face him in the majors.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Simmons had a long, productive career. That's it. He was in the top 10 in MVP voting once. The only thing he consistantly ranked in the top 10 in hitting was GIDP. He never lead the league in any major offensive catagory and his player similarity score is Alan Trammell. Cart on the hand was in the top 6 in MVP voting 4 times, lead the league in RBI one year. He also have 3 Gold Gloves and % Silver Slugger awards. Simmons had one SS. Carter's similarity score is Johnny Bench. I guess bench doesn't belong in the HOF either.

Puckett is like Bonds, you either love him or you hate him. If Koufax can get in with the mediocre career numbers posted, then why not Puckett? No one is claiming he is most deserving, but he is far from the least deserving.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

who uses that unarmed opponent stuff.... I need that quote.

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Posted By: howard

While the Negro League players obviously did well against white pros, using Holway's research is problematic. Holway considered a team to be major league if it included just five major leaguers (including the pitcher). The white barnstormers were often forced to use minor leaguers because many top big leaguers refused to play against blacks.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Carter 2092 hits, Simmons 2472
Carter 371 doubles, Simmons 483
Carter 31 triples, Simmons 47
Carter 324 home runs, Simmons 248

who played in cozy Shay, who in the expanses of humid Busch?

Carter .262 average, Simmons .285
Carter .335 OBP, Simmons .348
Carter .439 slugging, Simmons .437 ballparks...

who was it that remained in baseball, respected for his knowledge of the game????

Now 3 things occur to me...

1. Gary Carter got in because of New York media and bias and prejudice and ignorance...

2. And the real focus of this thread is that 17 got in, Buck wasn't one of them, the Hall is for baseball, not just white baseball, that I still think Buck should go in before some of the 17, that the Hall has long ago become diluted with the likes of ________ and _______.

And 3. Maybe Buck will reap the greater share of glory if he's inducted separately, soon, and while still alive enough to enjoy it.

Peace.