17 new Hall of Famers!

[Archive]

Posted By: howard

Why argue about Simmons and Carter when we all should be wondering what the heck Rick ferrel and Ray Schalk are doing in the Hall?

[Archive]

Posted By: David Vargha

Maybe I missed it, but who are the seven with cards and would you also be kind enough to list their cards for us?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

[Archive]

Posted By: rp60

Most of these games where played either before or after the season..And while it seems obvious that the black players had more to prove. White players played not for the honor and pride of the white race, but rather for a pay check..

[Archive]

Posted By: Colt McClelland

I live in Kansas City, and one of the local news channels just aired a local press conference where Buck made a few comments. As some earlier posts on this thread suggested, Buck was all about being positive and supporting the 17 who got in. He said he would be in Cooperstown to support the 17 new members. He was basically every bit the great ambassador we've come to know and love. He said that God's been very good to him, so don't shed a tear for old Buck. I love this guy. I think he will get in someday, as he should. I just hope he's still alive to enjoy it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris Counts

Here's a quote I just found from Minnie in response to today's announcement ...

"I know that baseball fans have me in their own Hall of Fame -- the one in their hearts," the 83-year-old Minoso said. "That matters more to me than any official recognition.

"If it's meant to be, it's meant to be, and I am truly honored to be considered. I've given my life to baseball, and the game has given me so much."

No doubt Minnie will one day make it to the HOF, but like Buck, it would sure be nice to see his big grin up on that podium in Cooperstown posing next to his plaque ...

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

HOF voting is more about perception than specific statistics. Puckett, Joss, Youngs, Koufax, Dean all prove that point, as do Mattingly, Sutton, Blyleven, John.

Puckett and Mattingly have virtually identical career numbers but Mattingly had two distinct careers: the first half was all world instant first ballot HOF second coming of Lou Gehrig, then he got hurt and had a second half that was more Will Clark/Mark Grace. Puckett was a stellar player who was cut down in mid-career. We don't have a several year period of declining play to watch.

Don Sutton waited for years to get into the HOF despite being over 300 wins; Don Drysdale scooted in with around 90 fewer wins because he had a couple of great years and was perceived as a money player. To me, Sutton is more Eppa Rixey or Ted Lyons: a very accomplished player who isn't really in the pantheon of greats. Blyleven and John fall within the same category as Sutton, IMHO. Really fine players but not worthy of the Hall.

The ones I feel for are the guys who went to the Majors well after they were ready because of race and who are on the cusp as a result, like Minoso or Don Newcombe. Newk told me that he was told by the Dodgers that he was held back for three years in the minors because the Dodgers were not going to bring up that many black players all at once. Now add 50-60 wins to his career taking him over 200 with a very high winning %, ROY, MVP and Cy Young award as he has and you are looking at a HOFer. Poor Min (Cab Calloway reference) has the same problem. He wasn't perceived as enough of a pioneer to get there as Doby and Irvin did despite a very similar career.

O'Neill falls within the same hard to define place as Lefty O'Doul does. He has a lot to recommend him as a HOFer but not enough in any one category to cause the voters to rally to him.

Have to disagree with the comment re LaSorda. As much as I hated him when he was managing against my Yankees in the series, the division titles, four pennants and two WS wins qualifies him as a HOF manager, IMHO. When he retires, I think Joe Torre will also get in as a manager for his run in the Bronx, as will Bobby Cox for the ATL.

[Archive]

Posted By: Max Weder

My thoughts on the HOF announcement:

Sad that Robert Peterson passed away so soon before. One of the defining moments of my interest in baseball was finding his book Only the Ball was White, and its striking cover,in the Saskatoon Public Library. As a 14 year old I had a somewhat advanced historical knowledge before finding that book but it was mindblowing to find out about these stars that I'd never heard of before.


Max

[Archive]

Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Max,

I agree that it's sad Peterson wasn't alive to see this day. Fortunately, he cast his votes on February 10th, one day before he died. From what I understand, they were going to tally the votes from the other 11 voters before openning the envelope with his ballot. This means that Peterson probably cast the deciding vote for several of the 17 who were elected. It seems only fitting.

-Ryan

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhys

I am not going to comment on whether I agree or disagree with the recent inductions.

However, just so that people on this forum know, there are not autograph examples of several of the players inducted. I have owned examples of a few of the remaining players and they vary in rarity, but just about all will be VERY expensive after this induction. It is the belief of the big Cuban/Negro League autograph experts who have been searching for decades that several of them were completely illiterate.

Rhys

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Gross

On HOF topic:

"Manley was born March 27, 1900. Her birth, like much of her life, was controversial. Within the black community, Manley rarely discussed her heritage, and most people assumed she was a light-skinned black. But Manley claimed in an interview in 1973 that she was white. Her mother, Bertha Ford Brooks, was white, of German and Asian-Indian descent. Effa explained that Bertha, who earned a living as a seamstress, became pregnant by her white employer, John M. Bishop, a wealthy Philadelphian. Manley's black stepfather, Benjamin Brooks, sued Bishop and received a settlement of $10,000 before he and Bertha divorced. Bertha remarried, and Effa was raised in a household with a black step-father and black half-siblings, and so chose to live as a black person."

-- Aimee Crawford, MLB.com

(Italics added)

A fascinating person; perception is greater than reality ....


Off HOF topic:

I don't know who was the best catcher in the '80's, but we all know who was the best pitcher ...

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

I didn't realize Robert Peterson died before today's announcement. That is sad. Does anyone know why he cast his votes in advance? I thought the idea was that the committee would meet, discuss the candidates and base their votes at least partly on the discussion. Did he know he was going to die?

[Archive]

Posted By: Kenny Cole

Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Mendez, Mackey, Hill, Cooper, Torriente.

Kenny Cole

[Archive]

Posted By: howard

While it may or may not be true that Newk would have been brought up three years earlier (I suspect he was held back one or two years) what actually hurt him more was his two years of military service and the awful season he had the year he returned. That combined with the year or two he missed in the late forties might have cost him close to a hundred wins.

[Archive]

Posted By: tbob

What a frigging bad joke. Awful...
Yes she was active in the civil rights movement and yes she helped her husband run the Newark Eagles, but she got in for all the wrong reasons. She got in because she was a real ambassador for the Negro League players, like Buck wasn't and isn't. C'mon! I am still mad about Tony O. the most feared hitter in the American League (according to the top pitchers of that era)during the 1960's and early 1970's and a defensive demon with speed and a rifle arm not being in and watching guys like Billy Williams, Bruce Sutter, Bill Mazeroski and Kirby Puckett get in.
Effa Manley? Let's do the politically correct thing and vote in the first woman in to the Hall. Give me a frigging break...

[Archive]

Posted By: Bryan

The one good thing about Effa's selection is that it does answer the question of who is the worst HOF selection.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Bob- you alluded to the problem when you referenced "politically correct." I've always suspected that a large number of players got in due to politics- having the right connections in the veterans committee, or being courted by a group of influential "lobbyists" who were close to the voters. No doubt players like Mays and Aaron get inducted no matter what, but too many marginal players have gotten in for all the wrong reasons. Yes, Effa Manley may have made a contribution to the Negro Leagues but maybe the time had finally come to have a woman in the hall.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

Its hard to quibble with some of the choices in the 17 without knowing what the critera was...If its just solely on Negro/Pre-Negro League "black ball" contributions I guess I can stand Minnie and Buck not making it -- although it will greatly diminish from the induction ceremony itself since Bruce Sutter will be the only living inductee and both Minnie and Buck are among the finest and most admirable living ex-ballplayers as human beings (as opposed to Pete Rose, for example)

I think Minnie and Buck both clearly belong based on the totality of their contributions to North American baseball -- which I believe the Veterans Comm. can address.

I have some knowledge of the plus and minuses of the pure "player candidates" and the one I was most surprised NOT to see making it was Donaldson, one of the great Negro League Pitchers who also had the stats (such as they are) to back up his reputation and then some.

Manley's selection would have bothered me if Cum Posie had not made it...

As to the argument that 17 more 19th Century players belong, it doesn't fly for me and I'm a "19th Century fan". The only rationale for that many is if we use the worst 19th century player (McCarthy) as the baseline and go from there. Four or maybe five 19th Century sure, but otherwise it would further water down the HOF to add a bunch more. There is already one Freddy Lindstrom in the HOF -- we don't need his 19th Century equivalent.

About (th hopefully facetious) suggestion that the Negro Leaguers don't belong in the Hall of Fame... It would be worse for the HOF than the excluded players if that happened because it would de-legitmize the whole enterprise.

SO far I think I have 2 of the 7 -- I don't really expect to come by more than one or two more in the foreseeable future.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

I said Kirby had 2000 hits in his first 10 seasons. You come out and tell me that I am wrong. And then correct me by saying he had 1996 ? Come on....Pretty close to 2 Grand. And I do not have Kirby on a pedestal. I live in the Twin Cities, and have had plenty of contact with him. Both at the garbage dome, and in the community. I was simply spouting stats. I put very few people on pedestals. The ones I put up there are family and friends. Not athletes. I have thousands of cards. I collect them because I love the cards, the game, and the history. Yes, Puck belongs in the hall. He easily would have had over three thousand hits if he wouldn't have been beaned. But I suppose we could go back and pick out the dozens of other players who don't belong.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Here is a checklist of all the cards of the newly elected HOFers that I am aware of:

Raymond Brown
1. 1945-46 Felices
2. 1951-52 Denia

Willard Brown
1. 1948-49 Toleteros
2. 1949-50 Toleteros (2 variations)
3. 1950 Dominican
4. 1950-51 Toleteros
5. 1950-51 Toleteros In Action #32
6. 1950-51 Toleteros In Action #72
7. 1950-51 Toleteros In Action #93
8. 1950-51 Toleteros In Action #176
9. 1951-52 Denia
10. 1952 Dominican

Andy Cooper
1. 1923-24 Billiken
2. 1923-24 Nacionales
3. 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez

Pete Hill
1. 1909 Cabanas
2. 1910 Punch

Biz Mackey
1. 1924-25 Aguilitas

Jose Mendez
1. 1910 Punch
2. 1923-24 Billiken
3. 1923-24 Nacionales
4. 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez
5. 1924-25 Aguilitas

Cristobal Torriente
1. 1923-24 Billiken
2. 1923-24 Nacionales
3. 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez #62
4. 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez #83
5. 1924-25 Aguilitas

Sorry about hijacking this thread with a post not related to Kirby Puckett or Gary Carter.

-Ryan

[Archive]

Posted By: RP60

Simmons, Hodges, Minoso, Santo, Oliva, Rice, Parker, Dawson, Carter, Gossage, just to name 10 worthy off the top of my head...Such a large appointment of negro league players should not suprise anyone, since MLB and the HOF have adopted an apologist approach to all matters concerning race in baseball past and present..

[Archive]

Posted By: Chad

Make an argument why a single one of the 17 elected don't deserve it. Seriously. These guys aren't in for political correctness, they're in because they're great players. Willard Brown was a great player. Ray Brown is one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Period. To say these guys are getting their due now because of political correctness or as an apology is just pure, unadulterated BS. Effa Manley and Alex Pompez are the only iffy choices, but they're not without their merits. As for the rest, I defy you to make a rational argument why they don't belong.

--Chad

[Archive]

Posted By: RP60

I dont think the people posting (myself included) feel that these players are not worthy..What I find interesting is the size of the group, and a woman included in a non-playing or managing role..Then again the HOF or MLB have never been even handed.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chad

Yes, it's stupid. But 25 years from now, what does it matter? They're in. Does anyone care that King Kelly got elected to the HOF in a mass group? Many of these players should have been in decades ago. It's about time they rectified that. As for Manley, there are plenty of executives/pioneers in the HOF who didn't play. She's the weakest inductee, but she's not without a case. It's not an unreasonable selection. I would rather Home Run Johnson or Buck or Dick Redding had been elected, but people need to understand how hard, allmost impossible it was, to keep a franchise stable in the Negro Leagues. And it was the fact that there were a few stable franchises that made various incarnations of the Negro Leagues possible. The Monarchs, the Grays and the Eagles were all able to do it, and all three of their operators are in the Hall. I would have only voted for Posey and Wilkinson, but I can see the committees point on Pompez and Manley. They're not enshrinees out of left field.

--Chad

[Archive]

Posted By: David Vargha

Thanks for the list, Ryan!

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

[Archive]

Posted By: Ryan Christoff

rp60,

I asked you before, but please post your damn name so we know who the hell you are.

-Ryan

[Archive]

Posted By: pete

1. Tommy Lasorda "HAD" to have gone in as a manager since he sucked as a player.

2. I think I would of changed my name (or nickname) if it was Cum Posey.

3. Adam, wanting to keep all the negro leaguers out of the hall of fame is not a "racist" remark, its a predujice remark, which is a "belief" that we all are intitled to and we are protected by the constitution's freedom of speech. On the other hand "kicking" the negro leaguers (or anyone) out of the hall of fame because of color, religion, etc. is a racist act, and considered to be a "hate" crime is NOT protected by the constitution.

4. so point 4 is that I agree with t206 to a certain degree but I "believe" that women ball players, negro ball players, minor league ball players, and even "band" ball players deserve some type of recognition in the hall of fame, a special section.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chad

But equating negro league players with minor leaguers, women ballplayers and "band" ball players is pretty condescending. They were major league caliber players who weren't allowed to play against whites. But more than that, the Negro Leagues WERE a major league, especially when the top teams played each other. The Homestead Grays would have been the best team in MLB in their dynasty years. They don't deserve to be marginalized with a special section. And thankfully, they won't be.

Man, I'm really starting to repeat myself. I guess I just don't understand why it's so hard to recognize that these guys were as good as the white players their careers shadowed. If Willie Mays had spent his entire career in Birmingham competing against Aaron and Robinson and Campanella and Banks and Bob Gibson, would he not be as great a player as Mickey Mantle? Wouldn't it ne more iteresting to actually learn something about these guys and the leagues they played in than to dismiss them out of hand? Just because Andy Cooper is an unfamiliar name, does he deserve to be ignored? He wasn't unfamiliar to black baseball fans when he played. That white America wasn't paying attention doesn't decrease their talent or their accomplishments. The sin is ours, not his. Yesterday was a LONG time coming.

And that's it for me. Back to waiting for the next fake Wagner thread.

--Chad

[Archive]

Posted By: Wesley

There certainly seems to be a lot of backlash to the HOF admitting seventeen members at the same time by special committee vote. Time will tell but these recent entrants to the Hall may one day be seen as no different than players who gain entry by regular ballot. Perhaps in the long run they will be viewed as the same as regular ballot inductees rather than similar to veteran committee selections, managers, umpires, journalists and other special entry members who are honored in Cooperstown. Like Chad said, in twenty-five years maybe it will not matter.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

There are more than a few baseball historians, as well as former players, who actually felt the Negro League players were in fact better than the major leaguers! When they played barnstorming games, the major league teams always sent mediocre players. The thinking was if the major leaguers won, that would prove their superiority; and if the black players won, well, there was a built-in excuse that they weren't beating the best players anyway. If the majors sent their best players and lost, that would be a devastating blow to segregated baseball.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark

"The thinking was if the major leaguers won, that would prove their superiority; and if the black players won, well, there was a built-in excuse that they weren't beating the best players anyway. "

Reminds me of this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/worldclassic2006/index

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

The reason so many players got elected at one time is because this is a one-time, special election. This will never happen again and the only way a NeLer can get in now is via the VC like every other ball player.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

[Archive]

Posted By: identify7

I can understand rookie card collectors not accepting pre-rookie cards because the player was not yet a MLB rookie.

I can understand some people thinking that Negro Leaguers should not be in the HOF because they were not MLB players.

The same could apply to umpires, owners, managers, Japanese Leaguers, Cuban Leaguers, etc.

Evidence exists (Suzuki, Aaron, others) that Major League Baseball did and probably still does not have a talent monopoly in baseball.

I agree that Maranville and Ruth are HOFers who bring different levels of talent to the baseball table.

But the HOF is a tribute. Bestowed on those deserving, and withheld for reasons deemed valid. In recognition of those worthy of tribute some has been granted. More needs to be.

I wish that the HOF was something other than it is. But it is not. There aren’t degrees of greatness, categories of recipients, nor fixed criteria for assessment of value. And there are errors, politics and judgements.

The Hall of Fame; love it or leave it. I have chosen to leave it. I have no more regard for their choices and rationale than I do for grading companies who impose their evaluation criteria on our hobby.

Somehow to my thinking tho, there are greater omissions outstanding than the enshrinement of Minoso.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt Goebel

I think part of the problem is that people think of it as the "Major League" baseball Hall of Fame, when it is in fact the "National" baseball Hall of Fame. No where at all is it limited to Major Leaguers.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

The election just made my collection a whole lot messier to complete. I try to get autographed tribute cards of the NLers (e.g. Perez Steele, etc.). How the *&*&% am I supposed to do that for most of these guys??? The idiots at the HOF are so inconsiderate of us collectors! J/K

[Archive]

Posted By: pete

that i didnt mean the caliber of negro ball players wasnt as high as the major league players, because its obvious that there are a lot of negro leaguers that deserve the honor, probably more than we know of, but the fact that it was a different league, just like minor leaguers or the women ball players...on the band ball players i think that a special section that highlights their careers like jackson and rose particularly, then point out the reason WHY they arent in the hall
(and in no way am i back pedaling)
pete-

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

The only three HOF cards I own are Dihigo, Dandridge and now Ray Brown. I am damned glad I bought my 1945/46 Caramelos Felices set when I did.

I feel very badly for Buck right now...

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie Vognar

Effe and Minnie and Buck and all of em. Sutter's O.K. too. HOOOOHAAA (diNiro).