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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

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  #1  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:30 AM
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Default #1 set on PSA registry has fakes!

CORRECTION: The Probstein listing calls this the #1 set on the registry, but it doesn't appear to be.

For those of you who don't know the difference between the 1969 MLBPA pin set and a related 1983 unlicensed reboot, the new article on the SABR baseball cards blog provides several.

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/2019/...h-tony-horton/

Among the most evident is that the authentics have the player name on the bottom, not top.

So yes, the "#1 All-Time Set on PSA Registry," as described in the listing, currently consigned to Probstein, has a fake Clemente that PSA slabbed as a 9.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F382895025611

This feels like a gigantic miss, and it's particularly odd that the collector himself wouldn't have known this, given that he took the trouble to assemble ostensibly the top set in the world.

I contacted Probstein to let him know. My guess is the auction will come down. Right?

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Last edited by jason.1969; 08-13-2019 at 08:19 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-14-2019, 12:52 AM
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several things to say on this:

1) yep, it's a reprint that was slabbed as an original, and the buyer made a $5000 boo-boo when it was purchased a few years ago. Here's the link from the CC forum discussion on the exact item from a MH auction, showing images of a real '69 Clemente, and the '83 reprint version, which the item slabbed as cert #81751818 clearly is: https://forums.collectors.com/discus...mment_11686941

(like you said the most strikingly obvious difference is that the team name and the player name are oppositely top/bottom for the original and reprint, so this was a very bad mistake on PSA's part and happens b/c they apparently don't do the obviously simple thing in this digital age of using stock photos of known good items for comparison to help their authenticators along, and they don't have enough oversight to catch things like this going through)

2) I checked the cert again just now and it comes up as unknown, which is weird, b/c it's been there before (I'm pretty sure I remember checking it in the past) and b/c the pop report still lists 1/1 MINT 9. I follow this player set very closely and the odds that another has graded out in the past few days is less than remote. It's supposed to be this one, which is messed up if the cert is now not registering as anything.

3) it's come up before and why does PSA not do anything about it until now? Just b/c of all the other nonsense being brought to light? Like you wondered, what about the collector, who should be the resident expert on these. Once he figured out his mistake, why not return it to PSA and get the $5k as a refund based on their authentication guarantee, rather than try to pass it on to some other unsuspecting person, who perhaps is less likely to notice since it is now bunched in a full lot? Whether the consignment company will now do anything about it is anyone's guess. As we've all seen they've all seemed to prove themselves to be remarkably tone-deaf about the ethics and transparency that should be the bedrock of the business model. They're all just so cowardly about doing the right thing when they have visions in their head about the acute impact to the bottom line for one sale rather than the chronic effect on trust. Short-sighted.
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  #3  
Old 08-14-2019, 12:53 AM
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Another PSA f***up? How unique...
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  #4  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:05 AM
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PSA should absolutely step up and find a way to buy that worthless pin back. It's embarrassing they validated such a well known counterfeit item.

Last edited by a761506; 08-14-2019 at 02:05 AM.
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  #5  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:27 AM
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So someone went through all the trouble to put together the highest graded set but was too stupid to know when he bought an obvious fake?

PSA is at fault but so are the idiots who don't educate themselves about what they buy.
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  #6  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:24 AM
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Let me get this straight....

This pin was submitted to PSA, who didn't notice it was a reprint and slabbed it. Then it was sold in a MH auction, who didn't notice. Then it was bought by a collector, who didn't notice, and now it's for sale through Probstein, who probably didn't notice but still hasn't taken down the listing?

Wowsers.

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  #7  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:48 AM
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Right. I contacted Probstein yesterday AM so we'll see what happens. This is such a black and white issue that I would consider it 100% unethical to keep the item for sale with that description and at that price.

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Old 08-14-2019, 08:04 AM
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Even though the Clemente is not authentic, has it been properly conserved? Perhaps we need PWCC to render an opinion.

After all, they may be the next auction house to sell the set.

What? Me Worry?
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  #9  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just.Rachel View Post
Let me get this straight....

This pin was submitted to PSA, who didn't notice it was a reprint and slabbed it. Then it was sold in a MH auction, who didn't notice. Then it was bought by a collector, who didn't notice, and now it's for sale through Probstein, who probably didn't notice but still hasn't taken down the listing?

Wowsers.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
So someone went through all the trouble to put together the highest graded set but was too stupid to know when he bought an obvious fake?

PSA is at fault but so are the idiots who don't educate themselves about what they buy.

And there's the problem. TPG encourages across the board laziness. Why do any due diligence when PSA backstops you? And then when you do learn of a problem, just pass it down the line through any number of consignment sellers who are happy to offer a PSA slab without any critical evaluation because it is a PSA slab.
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  #10  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:44 PM
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I think the biggest question here is why did the cert number suddenly come up “unknown”. Is 5his how the6 are trying to hide all the fake/trimmed items that are turning up due to the scandal?
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  #11  
Old 08-14-2019, 08:29 PM
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Pin is still in the Cert verification:
https://www.psacard.com/cert/81751818/

I also reported it as "Item Misclassified" at the following link:
https://www.psacard.com/auctionprice...auction/69038/
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Last edited by swarmee; 08-14-2019 at 08:31 PM.
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  #12  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
So someone went through all the trouble to put together the highest graded set but was too stupid to know when he bought an obvious fake?

PSA is at fault but so are the idiots who don't educate themselves about what they buy.
I want to agree with criticizing a bad buy, because in theory at least it seems artificial sales hurt other buyers by inflating values and overpricing future items.

But at the same time, I feel like any of us are prone to doing boneheaded things from time to time (even in life in general) and so the 'walk in someone elses shoes' metaphor comes to mind and I'm thinking we should rather commiserate.

But it sure is tough to figure out, since this wasn't a 3-day eBay auction that one might come across at the last minute, but would have been a 3-4 week marathon auction as those AH types tend to be, so with plenty of time to figure out what you're after and why. Now if he's like a gazillionaire for whom $5k is nothing, then I'm less apt to be empathetic over the mistake and instead just jealous of his gazillions...
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  #13  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty77 View Post
I want to agree with criticizing a bad buy, because in theory at least it seems artificial sales hurt other buyers by inflating values and overpricing future items.

But at the same time, I feel like any of us are prone to doing boneheaded things from time to time (even in life in general) and so the 'walk in someone elses shoes' metaphor comes to mind and I'm thinking we should rather commiserate.
Anyone can get taken by good counterfeits but a 5 year old child can see that Clemente is different from the others. Takes a 1 second Google search to find out why.
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  #14  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
And there's the problem. TPG encourages across the board laziness. Why do any due diligence when PSA backstops you? And then when you do learn of a problem, just pass it down the line through any number of consignment sellers who are happy to offer a PSA slab without any critical evaluation because it is a PSA slab.
^^^This^^^

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Old 08-15-2019, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
And there's the problem. TPG encourages across the board laziness. Why do any due diligence when PSA backstops you? And then when you do learn of a problem, just pass it down the line through any number of consignment sellers who are happy to offer a PSA slab without any critical evaluation because it is a PSA slab.
“Never get cheated. There’s always a venue for our mistakes. We guarantee it.”
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  #16  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:10 PM
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The listing was pulled.
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Old 08-15-2019, 06:17 PM
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Well, that's good.

Still waiting on PSA to eliminate all the cert numbers from the 1948 Leaf, 1952 Topps Look-n-See, Parkhurst Hockeys, etc that were all trimmed in super high numbers so that all the ones embedded in set registries are returned to them under the Grade Guarantee.
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  #18  
Old 08-17-2019, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman View Post
The listing was pulled.
Has now been broken up into 60 separate Set Break listings but with a true PSA 8 1969 Clemente subbed in.

Over/under on when we see the 1983 Clemente reappear?

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  #19  
Old 08-17-2019, 09:40 AM
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It's not the only one... these are in the Auction Prices Realized database.
Sold for $30.
Mantle sold for $455. Resold on COMC for $58 in February.
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Oh, what a difference a year makes.

Last edited by swarmee; 08-17-2019 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:06 PM
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Funny thing about the Mantle, is it wasn't even in the original set. PSA has graded three reprints as 1969 pins, when it's not even in their Set Registry.

COMC had a bunch of the reprints listed as 1969. I have sent them correction requests. They may want to inform their previous buyers that the pins are reprints, since they were sold as originals.
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  #21  
Old 08-18-2019, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
It's not the only one... these are in the Auction Prices Realized database:

(pic: Mantle NM-MT 8) Mantle sold for $455. Resold on COMC for $58 in February.
Ouch.
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Old 08-18-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
Funny thing about the Mantle, is it wasn't even in the original set. PSA has graded three reprints as 1969 pins, when it's not even in their Set Registry.
g-d d-mn, wtf, (and everything else). I get that there are challenging aspects of every job and anyone is prone to a mistake from time to time. But this isn't like being duped by a well-done fake that wasn't expected and so catches you off-guard...

This is just about recognizing an already established well-known reprint that is not going out of its way trying to nefariously undermine the system. This is so much not like the other things. Ok, so they are missing trimming; they are missing chemical bleaching; they are duped on autos...but this '83 pin thing more than any of that demonstrates the accuracy of the charge that they RUSH and don't spend nearly enough time just envisioning the bigger picture, to stop and say 'wait a minute, are we thinking in a rut here, assuming too much?"

If nothing before did, this shows that they just push things through too fast and without enough thought. Their own website implies a small army of experts examines each item: "A series of PSA graders review your cards for authenticity. If genuine, PSA looks for evidence of doctoring, such as re-coloring or trimming. If your cards pass these two steps, PSA grades the condition of each card on a scale of 1-10. After grading, PSA holders each card." What "series" means is ambiguous, but a fair interpretation could guess three (otherwise why not admit "couple"), plus the doctoring check, plus the grading assessment, all of which may or may not be the same staff, then the slabbing...each of these staff do this day in and day out for months or years on end and must by its nature gain expertise besides what presumably they should have had a minimum of when hired. It is mystifying how all in series can miss these reprints that are not even trying to fool anyone, unless they are just going through the motions too damn fast.
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  #23  
Old 08-18-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty77 View Post
g-d d-mn, wtf, (and everything else). I get that there are challenging aspects of every job and anyone is prone to a mistake from time to time. But this isn't like being duped by a well-done fake that wasn't expected and so catches you off-guard...



This is just about recognizing an already established well-known reprint that is not going out of its way trying to nefariously undermine the system. This is so much not like the other things. Ok, so they are missing trimming; they are missing chemical bleaching; they are duped on autos...but this '83 pin thing more than any of that demonstrates the accuracy of the charge that they RUSH and don't spend nearly enough time just envisioning the bigger picture, to stop and say 'wait a minute, are we thinking in a rut here, assuming too much?"



If nothing before did, this shows that they just push things through too fast and without enough thought. Their own website implies a small army of experts examines each item: "A series of PSA graders review your cards for authenticity. If genuine, PSA looks for evidence of doctoring, such as re-coloring or trimming. If your cards pass these two steps, PSA grades the condition of each card on a scale of 1-10. After grading, PSA holders each card." What "series" means is ambiguous, but a fair interpretation could guess three (otherwise why not admit "couple"), plus the doctoring check, plus the grading assessment, all of which may or may not be the same staff, then the slabbing...each of these staff do this day in and day out for months or years on end and must by its nature gain expertise besides what presumably they should have had a minimum of when hired. It is mystifying how all in series can miss these reprints that are not even trying to fool anyone, unless they are just going through the motions too damn fast.
Exactly this! Mistakes happen but if multiple "experts" (even two) greenlight the Mantle they just aren't experts. Plain and simple, they aren't. The only question left is if the simply don't know much about the materials they grade or whether grades are being purchased.

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  #24  
Old 08-18-2019, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jason.1969 View Post
Exactly this! Mistakes happen but if multiple "experts" (even two) greenlight the Mantle they just aren't experts. Plain and simple, they aren't. The only question left is if the simply don't know much about the materials they grade . . .

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Yeah, maybe someone in charge had the bright idea that since the sports pins are round, they should hand-off pin duty to the lame-o's in their coin department
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