Hey, pennant guys

[Hankphenom]

Can you tell how the player was applied to the pennant? I'm a little suspicious on two fronts: the player image looks different--almost like a photo--than others I've seen on old pennants; and the pennant style looks like one used commonly for generic state and university pennants of the era. Not saying it's not original, but my radar would be up on this one.

[Domer05]

Oh, it's the "Real McCoy" alright. Here's another one for sale by a fellow N54 contributor:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/2017660...d_out_detail=1

There would have been three pairs of tassels, originally.

The graphic looks like a photograph because of a revolutionary process this maker utilized for reproducing the same image, over and over again, on a felt or cloth medium. I'm not 100% sure, but I think this process involved engraving the negative image on a metallic plate; then transferring the image to the felt/cloth applique via ink by pressing the two together. It was cheap; you could make thousands of identical images in no time; and the level of detail was astounding (hence the appearance of a photograph). It was done a lot like how early printers printed newspapers.

Maybe you can tell us whether the applique was sewn to the felt, or glued? I've never been sure.

Also, if you want to display this, rather than restoring it, consider laying brand new felt beneath it that matches your pennant's colors. When viewed from a distance, it will look like one, cohesive pennant. It's much cheaper this way; and, you won't have to mess with the integrity of the pennant, which I think is important for a piece of this age.

Whatever you decide, post some pictures! Beautiful piece. Glad it's coming home.

[jhs5120]

Hey guys,

New to pennants, saw these pennants in a local auction and took a stab at it. I may have over paid, but thought they were neat. Just to learn a bit more about them and make sure I don't get taken, are there any pennants here that I should pay special attention to? A dealer at the national was interested in buying the group, but I wanted to know a bit more about them first and understand what would be a fair price.

Thanks for your help!
Jason

[Darner]

[QUOTE=Domer05;1905639]Oh, it's the "Real McCoy" alright. Here's another one for sale by a fellow N54 contributor:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/2017660...d_out_detail=1

Note the damage, it's the same pennant

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Oh, it's the "Real McCoy" alright. Here's another one for sale by a fellow N54 contributor:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/2017660...d_out_detail=1

There would have been three pairs of tassels, originally.

The graphic looks like a photograph because of a revolutionary process this maker utilized for reproducing the same image, over and over again, on a felt or cloth medium. I'm not 100% sure, but I think this process involved engraving the negative image on a metallic plate; then transferring the image to the felt/cloth applique via ink by pressing the two together. It was cheap; you could make thousands of identical images in no time; and the level of detail was astounding (hence the appearance of a photograph). It was done a lot like how early printers printed newspapers.

Maybe you can tell us whether the applique was sewn to the felt, or glued? I've never been sure.

Also, if you want to display this, rather than restoring it, consider laying brand new felt beneath it that matches your pennant's colors. When viewed from a distance, it will look like one, cohesive pennant. It's much cheaper this way; and, you won't have to mess with the integrity of the pennant, which I think is important for a piece of this age.

Whatever you decide, post some pictures! Beautiful piece. Glad it's coming home.

Is it just me, or is the damage pattern remarkably similar?

[cmoore330]

Thanks guys. It is definitely a period piece. The link you shared is the pennant that I purchased from a Net54 member, so I’m fairly certain this is the only one. I’m working with an Oklahoma baseball historian to try to narrow down what team it could represent. Unfortunately, in that time period you had college, semi-pro and minor league clubs.

Both the player and letters are sewn on and it is three pairs of tassles. I haven’t made any decisions on how to proceed with it yet. My hope is that the conservator can give me guidance on how best to preserve and display it. There is A LOT of moth damage, so being able to stabalize it from further damage is my #1 priority. It’s really impressive in person and will ultimately display well.

[Fballguy]

[QUOTE=Darner;1905678]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Oh, it's the "Real McCoy" alright. Here's another one for sale by a fellow N54 contributor:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/2017660...d_out_detail=1

Note the damage, it's the same pennant

What he said.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Hey guys,

New to pennants, saw these pennants in a local auction and took a stab at it. I may have over paid, but thought they were neat. Just to learn a bit more about them and make sure I don't get taken, are there any pennants here that I should pay special attention to? A dealer at the national was interested in buying the group, but I wanted to know a bit more about them first and understand what would be a fair price.

Thanks for your help!
Jason

Lots of $100-$150 pennants here. You might be able to squeeze $200 out of the Dimaggio in that condition. The 1957 looks to be in decent shape. If the tassels are intact, that's a $200-$250 pennant. The red 1947 is the cream of the crop. In that condition, that looks like an $800-$1,000 pennant to me.

I'm intrigued by the 1976 "Yankees are back" pennant. That has all the earmarks of the bootleg pennants that were so common in the 1970s. I've developed a taste for those as of late, so if you're interested in selling, let me know.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Lots of $100-$150 pennants here. You might be able to squeeze $200 out of the Dimaggio in that condition. The 1957 looks to be in decent shape. If the tassels are intact, that's a $200-$250 pennant. The red 1947 is the cream of the crop. In that condition, that looks like an $800-$1,000 pennant to me.

I'm intrigued by the 1976 "Yankees are back" pennant. That has all the earmarks of the bootleg pennants that were so common in the 1970s. I've developed a taste for those as of late, so if you're interested in selling, let me know.

Thanks! I really appreciate the info. I don’t have them in hand yet, but will post more pictures when I have it. Do you think the 1936 pennant has any value?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Also, if you want to display this, rather than restoring it, consider laying brand new felt beneath it that matches your pennant's colors. When viewed from a distance, it will look like one, cohesive pennant. It's much cheaper this way; and, you won't have to mess with the integrity of the pennant, which I think is important for a piece of this age.

.

I had a similar idea, but using mat board instead of felt. Mat board comes in a TON of colors, so you ought to be able to find a close match.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Thanks! I really appreciate the info. I don’t have them in hand yet, but will post more pictures when I have it. Do you think the 1936 pennant has any value?

Oh yeah...I didn't even notice that one. That's a easily a $300+ pennant in good condition. Yours looks a little faded. If the tip is intact, I'd say you could get $200+. Just my opinion...There are many here with more baseball pennant knowledge than me.

Just curious...What auction house were these in?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Oh yeah...I didn't even notice that one. That's a easily a $300+ pennant in good condition. Yours looks a little faded. If the tip is intact, I'd say you could get $200+. Just my opinion...There are many here with more baseball pennant knowledge than me.

Just curious...What auction house were these in?

Potter and Potter. There was also a neat group of 40+ Yankees mini pennants that sold. I won those too.

[Hankphenom]

I saw it briefly and the similar damage pattern and overall appearance caught my attention, too. Was that the same pennant, then? And either way, I'm still not sold on it. I'm not the biggest expert on them, but have collected and bought and sold a lot of pennants over the years and don't remember seeing one like this. If the player was the result of a well-known manufacturing process, as was mentioned, I'd like to see other examples.

[perezfan]

There are others out there. This Pennant is absolutely authentic. I can’t see the Etsy links but know that Keith J. Is a true expert and a very reputable seller. I’ve bought and traded with him many times, and this is one you just need to see in person.

I understand the concern because the mascot looks so different. But it is legit...

Some were embroidered on and others were glued. Some of these applied insignias were cloth, some were felt and some were leather. I suspect this one might be the latter, but can tell better if/when the new owner can post some good close-up pics.

Regardless, it’s a nice find and a beautiful piece, despite the rough condition. Eager to see how the “final product” looks after matting/framing.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Oh yeah...I didn't even notice that one. That's a easily a $300+ pennant in good condition. Yours looks a little faded. If the tip is intact, I'd say you could get $200+. Just my opinion...There are many here with more baseball pennant knowledge than me.

Just curious...What auction house were these in?

I’ve collected/bought/sold Baseball pennants forever... and can’t add much to what Rob already stated. He pretty much nailed it. The only others I’d mention are the two from 1950...

Bronx Bombers is a desirable one... roughly worth $175 - $200, and yours looks nice.

White pennant with Sliding Play is impossible to find in acceptable condition. Very soft felt pennant that did not stand the test of time. Plus the white felt is very subject to soiling. Yours looks better than the vast majority. Worth $150 - $175, given the condition is as nice as it looks.

Lastly, the 1957 WS Pennant is pretty rare. Prob. worth $200 on a good day.

Nice haul!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by perezfan

There are others out there. This Pennant is absolutely authentic. I can’t see the Etsy links but know that Keith J. Is a true expert and a very reputable seller. I’ve bought and traded with him many times, and this is one you just need to see in person.

I understand the concern because the mascot looks so different. But it is legit...

Some were embroidered on and others were glued. Some of these applied insignias were cloth, some were felt and some were leather. I suspect this one might be the latter, but can tell better if/when the new owner can post some good close-up pics.

Regardless, it’s a nice find and a beautiful piece, despite the rough condition. Eager to see how the “final product” looks after matting/framing.

Thanks for the info. This is the same pennant, then? Wonder what happened to the link.

[cmoore330]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Thanks for the info. This is the same pennant, then? Wonder what happened to the link.

I’m guessing he deleted the item (and link) because the item is no longer for sale since it is sitting in my house.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by cmoore330

I’m working with an Oklahoma baseball historian to try to narrow down what team it could represent. Unfortunately, in that time period you had college, semi-pro and minor league clubs.

Assuming it's legit, it almost has to be the college. Hard to imagine a semi-pro or minor league team using the name of the state instead of the city they played in, although I guess it's possible there were localities with that name in OK or other states.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

There are others out there. This Pennant is absolutely authentic. I can’t see the Etsy links but know that Keith J. Is a true expert and a very reputable seller. I’ve bought and traded with him many times, and this is one you just need to see in person.

I understand the concern because the mascot looks so different. But it is legit...

Some were embroidered on and others were glued. Some of these applied insignias were cloth, some were felt and some were leather. I suspect this one might be the latter, but can tell better if/when the new owner can post some good close-up pics.

Regardless, it’s a nice find and a beautiful piece, despite the rough condition. Eager to see how the “final product” looks after matting/framing.

Regarding the embroidered Oklahoma Pennant, here is another example of similar 1910s “technology”...

https://www.huntauctions.com/live/im...=427&lot_qual=

This is an oversized Tigers example, but in better condition. The Tiger Head is applied leather. It looks a bit more vibrant, due to having less wear. But still very similar to the Oklahoma pennant with regard to materials and design.

Hope this is helpful.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Assuming it's legit, it almost has to be the college. Hard to imagine a semi-pro or minor league team using the name of the state instead of the city they played in, although I guess it's possible there were localities with that name in OK or other states.

I agree... Most likely a college pennant. Although the colors are more indicative of Oklahoma State than OU. Let us know what you’re able to find out, as it’s an oldie!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I agree... Most likely a college pennant. Although the colors are more indicative of Oklahoma State than OU.

Has to be OU, nobody would make an OK State pennant without the "State."

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Wasn't State in those days it was Oklahoma A&M and they were members of the Southwest Conference

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Wasn't State in those days it was Oklahoma A&M and they were members of the Southwest Conference

Has to be OU.

[cmoore330]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Has to be OU.

Our third largest university, University of Central Oklahoma, has the colors of Bronze and Blue (adopted in 1895) that match the pennant. At the time, they were Central State Normal School, so they could also be an option.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by cmoore330

Our third largest university, University of Central Oklahoma, has the colors of Bronze and Blue (adopted in 1895) that match the pennant. At the time, they were Central State Normal School, so they could also be an option.

It will be interesting to research, I would assume most colleges had a baseball program by then. Keep us posted!

[Fballguy]

My first venture into the world of grommets.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

My first venture into the world of grommets.

That's an absolute beauty, Rob! I love that green felt. I have a jet black Yankees companion pennant to that one. Will post a pic, as time allows...

Terrific pickup!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Nice pennant Rob

[bocca001]

Nice pennant Rob! Love the colors.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by perezfan

That's an absolute beauty, Rob! I love that green felt. I have a jet black Yankees companion pennant to that one. Will post a pic, as time allows...

Terrific pickup!

I’m a sore loser on the Yankees one

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

My first venture into the world of grommets.

Where did you pick that up?

[yankeesjetsfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

My first venture into the world of grommets.

Beautiful pennant Rob!

Mike

[ooo-ribay]

Just picked this up for a decent price. The batter, catcher, umpire was not a style I owned. Any ideas as to age and/or maker?

[perezfan]

It's a really nice one, that's very undervalued, IMHO...

Possibly late 1940s, but early 1950s would be my best guesstimate.

Nice pickup, Rob!

[ValKehl]

I'm not into pennants, and I know next to nothing about them. About 20-25 years ago, I picked up this Homestead Grays pennant at a local card show. Can someone kindly tell me if this is an original from around the 1940's or if it's a repro - and if it's original, what it's approx. value would be? Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I'm not into pennants, and I know next to nothing about them. About 20-25 years ago, I picked up this Homestead Grays pennant at a local card show. Can someone kindly tell me if this is an original from around the 1940's or if it's a repro - and if it's original, what it's approx. value would be? Thanks in advance for any assistance.

I'd say it's definitely the real deal. No idea of value, tho.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

It's a really nice one, that's very undervalued, IMHO...

Possibly late 1940s, but early 1950s would be my best guesstimate.

Nice pickup, Rob!

I may bleach the spine.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Val,
It’s real. There was a find of NOS negro league pennant around the same time you bought this. They were quickly absorbed in to the hobby, but you still see them around generally in great shape. Great pennant. The value would be around $3-400 or so. They have sold for more at auction, but this is about where I would expect to see it offered for sale.

[Duluth Eskimo]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=167544

[ValKehl]

Rob & Jason, many thanks for responding with very helpful information - much appreciated!
Val

[perezfan]

It's real, and worth a bit more...

Homestead Grays consistently commands a bit more money than most other Negro League teams in this series. $400 - $500 is more like it.

Best of luck, and great pickup.

[perezfan]

Here's a recent sale that went a bit higher than that range...

https://loveofthegameauctions.com/Lo...entoryid=18272

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here's a recent sale that went a bit higher than that range...

https://loveofthegameauctions.com/Lo...entoryid=18272

On Val's...The tassels look off to me. Too thick and long.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

On Val's...The tassels look off to me. Too thick and long.

I think it's ok, Rob...

Quality control was not exactly "state of the art" back then. These pennants were likely cut by hand, and the tassel thickness varied quite a bit. Check out the above linked LOTG example...

It's pretty clear that one of the two tassels is thicker than the other (on both sets of tassels, no less). I suppose there's a slight chance that Val's tassels were replaced, but I'd state with 99% probability that it's all-original.

[Duluth Eskimo]

It’s absolutely real as are the tassels

[Fballguy]

I don't know man...you guys are the experts...but the pennant looks faded, but the spine is very white. Also, the puckering. I've got many modern pennants with that puckering. Not sure I have any felt ones.

By comparison...The Love of the Game pennant is much more vibrant, yet the spine is more discolored.

[Hankphenom]

I'm not sold on the fact that Val's is an original, either, although as a big fan and friend of Val's I hope it is. I see a BIG difference in the LOTG version and those from the supposed warehouse find of the 80s. If nothing else, the find version was either made by different people or by a very different process, or both. The tassels are actually a different color and considerably larger, and the "felt" looks to be of the newer, stiffer type than the old soft felt in the LOTG pennant. I don't know if puckering proves anything, but that's another difference. Negro league material had become quite collectible by the mid to late 80s, and would have been a natural to forge since the original exemplars to compare to were so scarce, so that argument against the possibility of forgeries doesn't hold water for me. I'd like to see some documentation of the "warehouse find" or at least see one of Val's type pennants for sale somewhere earlier than the date of the "find." As a pennant guy, it's a fascinating topic.

[Fballguy]

Not sure if this known, but the reproductions were made under the name Black Diamond Authentic Series in association with the Negro League Baseball Museum in Kansas City, MO. They're still selling pennants, but none that would be confused for the real thing.

Here is a reproduction Grays pennant with the tag still attached.



Here is a more recent item with a similar Black Diamond Authentic Series tag.

[Domer05]

Rob: Are these Black Diamond reproductions made with raised felt graphics/lettering, like the Mitchell and Ness repros?

[Fballguy]

I've never owned a reproduction but based on the confusion around which are real and which are fake, I think it's safe to say the answer is no.