PWCC & eBay - help us improve the hobby

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Which auction houses still have hidden reserves?

"17. A few lots are subject to a reserve; these will be clearly noted on our web site and the auctioneer may bid up to the bid below the reserve amount."
http://www.cleansweepauctions.com/html/faq.html

I do like their treatment of bid retractors, though....

"11. Names of re-neggers will be published in all future auctions and correspondence. Please do not embarrass yourself."

[Gradedcardman]

This post does not need to go away yet. I am watching an auction with obvious shill bidding happening. I have notified Brent twice and asked him to have the bidder removed. The current high bidder, according to Brent, won this item 10 days ago and then decided to resell to free up funds. If that is the case then the winner should not now be the high bidder. I will post updates as this moves on and eventually with the winner/bidder information. Ebay will also be notified though I doubt he will face any issues due to his status with them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

This post does not need to go away yet. I am watching an auction with obvious shill bidding happening. I have notified Brent twice and asked him to have the bidder removed. The current high bidder, according to Brent, won this item 10 days ago and then decided to resell to free up funds. If that is the case then the winner should not now be the high bidder. I will post updates as this moves on and eventually with the winner/bidder information. Ebay will also be notified though I doubt he will face any issues due to his status with them.

So he told you this in order to reassure you there was NOT shill bidding going on? I don't follow.

[Peter_Spaeth]

By the way, how can a PSA 10 be high end for the grade?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-B...item20fd3a2a47

[gregr2]

Reminds me of the line from the movie This is Spinal Tap "These go to eleven".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By the way, how can a PSA 10 be high end for the grade?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-B...item20fd3a2a47

the power of puffery!

[calvindog]

Nothing to see here, folks, keep it moving.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d..._None_ViewLink

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By the way, how can a PSA 10 be high end for the grade?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-B...item20fd3a2a47

Very simple: the description says it's worthy of an 11, so that's why it's high end. Duh.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Very simple: the description says it's worthy of an 11, so that's why it's high end. Duh.

LOL. Not that I thought much of the independent PWCC certification anyhow, but attaching it to a 10 burns all credibility. Stupid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

This post does not need to go away yet. I am watching an auction with obvious shill bidding happening. I have notified Brent twice and asked him to have the bidder removed. The current high bidder, according to Brent, won this item 10 days ago and then decided to resell to free up funds. If that is the case then the winner should not now be the high bidder. I will post updates as this moves on and eventually with the winner/bidder information. Ebay will also be notified though I doubt he will face any issues due to his status with them.

Can you post a link to the item in question, or the item number.

[Brian Van Horn]

I hate to pile on, but the Standard Biscuit fiasco in February is still a relevant topic. The cards were faked and still passed through SGC and were then auctioned through PWCC.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL. Not that I thought much of the independent PWCC certification anyhow, but attaching it to a 10 burns all credibility. Stupid.

+1

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I hate to pile on, but the Standard Biscuit fiasco in February is still a relevant topic. The cards were faked and still passed through SGC and were then auctioned through PWCC.

...but SGC graded them, so they MUST be legit.

[wonkaticket]

Adam are you sure? I was told this isn't in his DNA?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Adam are you sure? I was told this isn't in his DNA?

Tax fraud: in his DNA
Fraud rampant in his auctions: in his DNA
Sending out ebay messages openly suggesting to buyers how to beat the tax laws: in his DNA
Lying on Net 54: in his DNA

[wonkaticket]

So Jeff you're saying it should be viewed more like this?

[calvindog]

Lololololololol

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

So Jeff you're saying it should be viewed more like this?

close enough!!!!!

[wonkaticket]

Pete, I agree hard to argue with Lichtman Labs I've used them for years...they have never let me down.

[ullmandds]

Haha...lichtman labs...genetic testing thats close enough for govt work!

[pokerplyr80]

It sounds like PWCC doesn't have many fans on this forum. I'm sure people who consign to him to try to shill their own auctions, as they do through other sellers and auction houses. Only Brent can say what is really being done to prevent it. But with 1000s of cards up at any time I'm sure it's difficult to monitor.

I don't see how anyone could hold him or any auction house responsible for selling a counterfeit card that was good enough to fool SGC and was encased.

As for the PWCC certified PSA 10 it does sound unusual. However, if it weren't possible to have a PSA 10 that is nice for the grade, there would be no BGS 10 pristine. Perhaps this is one that could be crossed over.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Theoretically, I think a 10 could be “nice for the grade” or whatever you want to call it. Just to chose something quantifiable, take centering. PSA mentions: “55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse”. In theory a dead centered card would exceed the minimum requirement. In their definition they allow some room for a card to exceed minimum standards.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It sounds like PWCC doesn't have many fans on this forum. I'm sure people who consign to him to try to shill their own auctions, as they do through other sellers and auction houses. Only Brent can say what is really being done to prevent it. But with 1000s of cards up at any time I'm sure it's difficult to monitor.

I don't see how anyone could hold him or any auction house responsible for selling a counterfeit card that was good enough to fool SGC and was encased.

How about letting consignors bid on their own lots? Or offer to help auction winners evade sales tax in California? Or lie about his manipulated scans? Can we hold him responsible for that?

[japhi]

Wow what a pile on. I don't have a horse in this race but I find amazing how clean some folks on here manage to run their business.

Brent's big mistake of course was his original post. Most of us have made mistakes in business, and I'm sure some folks here have done much worse.

I will say he's an idiot for posting and he underestimated how much free time some folks have, and how much enjoyment they get from trying to take others down and how some guys here are just downright angry.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by japhi

Wow what a pile on. I don't have a horse in this race but I find amazing how clean some folks on here manage to run their business.

Brent's big mistake of course was his original post. Most of us have made mistakes in business, and I'm sure some folks here have done much worse.

I will say he's an idiot for posting and he underestimated how much free time some folks have, and how much enjoyment they get from trying to take others down and how some guys here are just downright angry.

Actually, I think it's the massive fraud in his auctions, permitting consignors to bid on their own lots, the tax cheating and the bad scans that were his big mistakes. Posting on here was just idiotic. But Doug Allen and John Rogers did the same thing.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Actually, I think it's the massive fraud in his auctions, the tax cheating and the bad scans that were his big mistakes. Posting on here was just idiotic. But Doug Allen and John Rogers did the same thing.

I guess everyone has a different sense of proportion.

I just don't get as worked up as you guys about a scan that is too bright, a guy bidding on his own cards, or a seller offering to ship a card out of state. None of those things really have much of an impact on me. I can always return the card, not pay if I feel shilled and frankly I couldn't care less about California's tax situation. And of course, I could just not bid in his auctions.

[Pat R]

....

[pokerplyr80]

I was not actively collecting in 2010 and don't know if letting consignors place a bid was an announced policy or against Ebay rules. Since it seems everyone was unaware he had this policy I'm surprised he mentioned it. At least he's willing to admit they made a mistake.

I can't speak on helping buyers evade sales tax in California as I have no knowledge of this. Many purchase online to avoid sales tax and I would be surprised if more than a couple people on this entire forum self report their online purchases to pay the proper sales tax. Does that mean we're all guilty of tax fraud? By the letter of the law I'm sure it does. I know Brent has since moved his business to Oregon. Having to collect sales tax in the largest state in the country would put his business at a disadvantage. If he simply suggested to customers they can avoid paying sales tax by shipping to an out of state address or PO Box I don't see a problem.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by japhi

I guess everyone has a different sense of proportion.

I just don't get as worked up as you guys about a scan that is too bright, a guy bidding on his own cards, or a seller offering to ship a card out of state. None of those things really have much of an impact on me. I can always return the card, not pay if I feel shilled and frankly I couldn't care less about California's tax situation. And of course, I could just not bid in his auctions.

This is the first intelligent thing posted here.

I'm surprised how worked up some people are getting

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I was not actively collecting in 2010 and don't know if letting consignors place a bid was an announced policy or against Ebay rules. Since it seems everyone was unaware he had this policy I'm surprised he mentioned it. At least he's willing to admit they made a mistake.

I can't speak on helping buyers evade sales tax in California as I have no knowledge of this. Many purchase online to avoid sales tax and I would be surprised if more than a couple people on this entire forum self report their online purchases to pay the proper sales tax. Does that mean we're all guilty of tax fraud? By the letter of the law I'm sure it does. I know Brent has since moved his business to Oregon. Having to collect sales tax in the largest state in the country would put his business at a disadvantage. If he simply suggested to customers they can avoid paying sales tax by shipping to an out of state address or PO Box I don't see a problem.

So if complying with the law puts you at a disadvantage that makes it OK to break the law? Wow. I guess that's an interesting libertarian view. I have my doubts about its merit as a legal defense though.

By the way I think the issue may have been encouraging people to pay by check or money order, not shipping out of state.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

This is the first intelligent thing posted here.

I'm surprised how worked up some people are getting

Jason, I don't think folks who have posted here about his admissions are wrecked over this or pacing back and forth in their houses. If anything it's par for the course the hobby is full of not so above board folks. With that said you're ok with getting shilled or having a business owner turning a blind eye to things that could cost you extra money...that doesn't bother you at all? Interesting....

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Jason, I don't think folks who have posted here about his admissions are wrecked over this or pacing back and forth in their houses. If anything it's par for the course the hobby is full of not so above board folks. With that said you're ok with getting shilled or having a business owner turning a blind eye to things that could cost you extra money...that doesn't bother you at all? Interesting....

exactly...because some of us "care" that the hobby is littered with corruption and crookery...and want a "safer" place to play in...that makes us losers with too much time on our hands?

you all who couldn't care less should be thanking us for trying to remedy the problem...not that any of us expect or even want that!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Jason, I don't think folks who have posted here about his admissions are wrecked over this or pacing back and forth in their houses. If anything it's par for the course the hobby is full of not so above board folks. With that said you're ok with getting shilled or having a business owner turning a blind eye to things that could cost you extra money...that doesn't bother you at all? Interesting....

The level of intelligence of some of these responses just shows me how little some have learned since the Mastro debacle -- and how easy it is to rip off collectors. But I think anyone with an IQ north of 100 knew this already.

[chaddurbin]

hey you guys complaining...change from those sweatpants you're wearing, get out of your mom's basement and do something productive with your lives...or just get a life instead of ruining the great hobby experience the rest of us are having!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

hey you guys complaining...change from those sweatpants you're wearing, get out of your mom's basement and do something productive with your lives...or just get a life instead of ruining the great hobby experience the rest of us are having!

i never leave the house in sweatpants!

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

hey you guys complaining...change from those sweatpants you're wearing, get out of your mom's basement and do something productive with your lives...or just get a life instead of ruining the great hobby experience the rest of us are having!

LOL, Quan.

[nolemmings]

i never leave the house in sweatpants!

Thank you--unless you're a spandex guy.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thank you--unless you're a spandex guy.

ha ha...definitely not!!!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

As the Mastro/Allen discussions show, there are basically two types of people here, those that are really bothered and pissed off by fraud in the hobby, and those who don't care as long as they think it doesn't affect THEM personally. Not much point in either side bashing the other.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As the Mastro/Allen discussions show, there are basically two types of people here, those that are really bothered and pissed off by fraud in the hobby, and those who don't care as long as they think it doesn't affect THEM personally. Not much point in either side bashing the other.

Tell me, how does fraud in the hobby not affect everyone? How do secret reserves, manipulated scans and shill bidding not affect everyone?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Tell me, how does fraud in the hobby not affect everyone? How do secret reserves, manipulated scans and shill bidding not affect everyone?

I never said it didn't, I said people THINK it doesn't affect them. Just like people think THEY won't be infected with the plague of altered cards. But you aren't going to convince those folks.

[Gradedcardman]

I want to update my last post to say that PWCC has retracted/removed the possible shill bids. I will follow this auction through to the end and give a final update on Sunday.

[ullmandds]

well I certainly understand that is is nearly impossible to "police" thousands of auctions...and if what it takes is someone pointing it out to brent in order for him to do something about it...that's better than nothing...and is certainly a start in the right direction.

[Rob D.]

This is a hobby in which loyalty is pledged -- much too often and by people who should know better -- to whomever bought them dinner at a National. If Brent does nothing else, he should just make sure he has reservations at Morton's the last week in July.

R0b D3wolf

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

well I certainly understand that is is nearly impossible to "police" thousands of auctions...and if what it takes is someone pointing it out to brent in order for him to do something about it...that's better than nothing...and is certainly a start in the right direction.

Is it impossible to police, say, the auctions of your 25 most expensive cards? That argument that it's harder to run an ebay auction house than a major corporation is bullshit. I can look at 25 auctions in about 10 minutes and identify repeat bidders bidding on all sorts of diverse cards with high percentages of bids in PWCC and lots of retractions.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Is it impossible to police, say, the auctions of your 25 most expensive cards? That argument that it's harder to run an ebay auction house than a major corporation is bullshit. I can look at 25 auctions and identify repeat bidders bidding on all sorts of diverse cards with high percentage of bids in PWCC and lots of retractions.

No...it is more than reasonable to police that #.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

well I certainly understand that is is nearly impossible to "police" thousands of auctions...and if what it takes is someone pointing it out to brent in order for him to do something about it...that's better than nothing...and is certainly a start in the right direction.

The idea that he's an innocent dupe being used by crooked consigners is belied by his admitted (and documented) fraud. Brent knows exactly what he's doing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

This is a hobby in which loyalty is pledged -- much too often and by people who should know better -- to whomever bought them dinner at a National. If Brent does nothing else, he should just make sure he has reservations at Morton's the last week in July.

R0b D3wolf

Seems all you have to do to win most people over is ship their card quickly and securely.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Jason, I don't think folks who have posted here about his admissions are wrecked over this or pacing back and forth in their houses. If anything it's par for the course the hobby is full of not so above board folks. With that said you're ok with getting shilled or having a business owner turning a blind eye to things that could cost you extra money...that doesn't bother you at all? Interesting....

John, while I agree with you that most posters are not "wrecked" over this, there is certainly a disproportionate level of anger by many considering the nature of the original post. As Matt said, everyone has a different sense of proportion.

If people want to get upset over this, that's their purgative.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

If people want to get upset over this, that's their purgative.

Totally my purgative, thanks.