Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Exhibitman]

It isn't helpful and you make a very good point about anyone who was victimized having a window to dispute credit card charges or paypal payments.

[atx840]

Different situation but when researching the "thought" to be fake Jennings (left) signature, I found the example on the right sold as a common without mention of a signature.

Possibly someone was testing a few signature variants.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Or some college kids on summer vacation who can be shown a basic scale and be more or less "trained" to do the job in a day or so?

I never noticed a "meet the team" link on any TPG company's website. I don't think it should be a secret who the graders are either. I suspect/hope the same person isn't grading T206s and shiny modern cards from last year - you'd think there could be a little bio with what their specialties are, yrs of experience, etc..

[Jasonxmay]

That “known fake” Jennings is mine. I’ve always thought it was real, but every TPA has rejected it. I can trace its provenance back over 20 years, so it’s certainly more likely to be real that the recently created versions that have ended up being deemed “authentic” by the TPAs. I don’t have any hard feelings about them rejecting it as parts of the signature are atypical. I had asked the authentication companies if they would change their opinion if I spent the money to have the age of the ink tested. Their response was that they did not consider that type of evidence in rendering an opinion — seems a little ironic considering the current scandal.

Jason

Originally Posted by atx840

Different situation but when researching the known fake Jennings (left) found the example on the right sold as a common without mention of a signature.

Possibly someone was testing a few signature variants.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans

I never noticed a "meet the team" link on any TPG company's website. I don't think it should be a secret who the graders are either. I suspect/hope the same person isn't grading T206s and shiny modern cards from last year - you'd think there could be a little bio with what their specialties are, yrs of experience, etc..

It's harder to bribe someone if you don't know who they are.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Jasonxmay

Their response was that they did not consider that type of evidence in rendering an opinion

Clowns.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans

I never noticed a "meet the team" link on any TPG company's website. I don't think it should be a secret who the graders are either. I suspect/hope the same person isn't grading T206s and shiny modern cards from last year - you'd think there could be a little bio with what their specialties are, yrs of experience, etc..

I used to be a fine dining chef and when we had VIPs in the dining room I would make their dishes and walk them out to the table and present them myself. No server (middle man) or cloak to hide behind. I found it held me to a higher standard when I had to look someone in the eye and say "I made this for you". Maybe it's time for flips to have the name of the grader on them. A little personal responsibility goes a long way.

[Leon]

I spoke with someone again today, who has been in touch with authorities. As of now there really isn't any new news and the last thing said is that it is prefered not to be made public yet. That is the last word I got and that is what I am going with for now. I know some folks want tar and feather but I always prefer to do what authorities ask.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Jasonxmay

I had asked the authentication companies if they would change their opinion if I spent the money to have the age of the ink tested. Their response was that they did not consider that type of evidence in rendering a
Jason

I love it Jason, A TPG told me they "didnt like the ink" on one of my cards, but the signature looked good. The friggin thing was in PENCIL!

[atx840]

Currently for sale on ebay. The seller has a lot of cards listed/sold that f***f bought (the buyer of the Marquard)

Sold - May 31, 2018





https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bill-Terry-...torefresh=true

[atx840]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sam-Rice-Si...p2047675.l2557

Jun 10, 2018

[jad22]

Originally Posted by atx840

Jun 10, 2018



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sam-Rice-Si...p2047675.l2557

Quite a few interesting cards from this seller.

[Republicaninmass]

Virtual who's who of tough names, selling raw, while the easier ones are in PSA holders

[atx840]

This one is slabbed

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rick-Ferrel...p2047675.l2557

[Republicaninmass]

Hmmm, seems pretty random he bought a bad bunch, now let's link his buying account

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Shit

[Republicaninmass]

Was looking through my folders, I've never bought from him

[conor912]

Originally Posted by atx840

This one is slabbed

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rick-Ferrel...p2047675.l2557

The first of many, I presume.

[jad22]

SGC should take a time out to address this.

[conor912]

For those talking about testing the ink, does it test for how long the ink has been on the card (if that's even possible) or just the age of the ink itself? Like if the forger bought an antique pen with the original ink in it, wouldn't that pass an ink/age test all day long?

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by atx840

This one is slabbed

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rick-Ferrel...p2047675.l2557

Chris,

You may have to start a brand new Fake Goudey thread. This one's yours. Great job finding these!

[h2oya311]

OMG, that video was absolutely hilarious!! The lines about ‘75 Topps borders put me into tears on the bus! And Moe Berg references were excellent. And Elmer Flick’s daughter making a cameo. Bwahahaha! Excellent stuff!

On a more depressing note, I just read this thread.

[biggsdaddycool]

Here...we...go!

#HereComeTheGoudeys


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[ALBB]

Starting to get very suspicious of signed Goudey cards

I think that's going to be the next bomb dropped

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by ALBB

Starting to get very suspicious of signed Goudey cards

I think that's going to be the next bomb dropped

I think the bomb is the ineptitude of TPG'ers when it comes to authenticating autographs and their lack of expertise in the service they provide.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by conor912

For those talking about testing the ink, does it test for how long the ink has been on the card (if that's even possible) or just the age of the ink itself? Like if the forger bought an antique pen with the original ink in it, wouldn't that pass an ink/age test all day long?

There is a standard test to judge how long the ink has been on the paper. A particular quality of pen ink changes over time after it's been applied. No scientific test is perfect, but it is often used to identify writing that has been applied relatively recently.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by drcy

There is a standard test to judge how long the ink has been on the paper.

I'm sure there are many scientific tests. None of which can possibly be done in the amount of time the TPA's take to make a determination (likely minutes) and the amount of money they charge for the service (peanuts).

[painthistorian]

The seller of those 1933 Goudeys pictured on this thread (signed & unsigned) is from Lewiston, Illinois, which may or may not be affiiated to the other e bay person that bought my T206 baker (Ohio)...One thing VERY interesting, the seller of the 1933 Goudey Ferrell & Terry has a lot of 1950's Baseball Boxes & Baseballs(not signed) for sale, and a lot of autographs which to me dont look right ...he may have bought these items from someone else but no question, some of those "certified" autographs need to be re examined.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by painthistorian

The seller of those 1933 Goudeys pictured on this thread (signed & unsigned) is from Lewiston, Illinois, which may or may not be affiiated to the other e bay person that bought my T206 baker (Ohio)...One thing VERY interesting, the seller of the 1933 Gouudey Ferrell & Terry has a lot of 1950's Baseball Boxes & Baseballs(not signed) for sale, and a lot of autographs which to me dont look right ...he may have bought these items from someone else but no question, some of those "certified" autographs need to be re examined.

I thought Ebays “Fraud Department” was looking into this.

[iwantitiwinit]

There are also a large number of signed 48 Bowmans out there.

[Collect Equity]

Originally Posted by atx840

This one is slabbed

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rick-Ferrel...p2047675.l2557

This item is no longer actively listed on eBay. I assume it was listed an hour ago and the seller is actively reading this thread.

Can he remove the history of listed items on eBay when he takes them down? If so, someone needs to take screenshots fast!

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

This item is no longer actively listed on eBay. I assume it was listed an hour ago and the seller is actively reading this thread.

Can he remove the history of listed items on eBay when he takes them down? If so, someone needs to take screenshots fast!

Bought on 10/16 by someone.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

This item is no longer actively listed on eBay. I assume it was listed an hour ago and the seller is actively reading this thread.

Can he remove the history of listed items on eBay when he takes them down? If so, someone needs to take screenshots fast!

He hasn't taken down the Terry yet.

[Lordstan]

The person in Lewiston, Ill is Roger Till. He has been on ebay and amazon forever.
He has truckloads of bad stuff. On ebay he is vintagecollections1. He has also been olebbstuff.
A few years ago i bought some signed Sport Magazines off him. They were close, but not good under closer inspection. He refunded my money. Around the same time, another member here, Mike R, bought several signed mags from him including Maris, off Amazon. They were rejected when he asked Richard Simon to check them out. He was able to get his money back as well.

If you see someone selling autographs out of Lewiston, Ill, run very far very fast.

I am not saying he is the person behind the t206s, but there are multiple threads about him in Sportscollectors.net being a bad seller..

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[drcy]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I'm sure there are many scientific tests. None of which can possibly be done in the amount of time the TPA's take to make a determination (likely minutes) and the amount of money they charge for the service (peanuts).

Agree. TPA's are offering quick opinions for a relatively small fee.

And there's nothing wrong with a quick opinion for a relatively small fee, so long as you take it for what it is.

I think some parts of the hobby are a joke, but that it's just as much a fault of the collectors and sellers as the TPAs and graders. If a TPA gives a $10 quick opinion and on the LOA itself it says it's just an opinion, and collectors and sellers turn and treat it as the Sermon on the Mount & final cosmic arbiter of right or wrong/truth or untruth/holy or unholy/riches or rags, that's the collectors' and sellers' faults more than the TPAs-- at least in my opinion. My old saying is: If you go into a Three Stooges movie expecting Orson Welles, that's your fault not the movie's.

Duly note that I like the Three Stooges. I'm not putting the Three Stooges But they are, of course, what they are.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by drcy

Agree. TPA's are offering quick opinions for a relatively small fee.

Quick opinions are very different than guarantees. They keep teetering between the two terms at their convenience.

I'm sure their argument would be that a thorough enough examination to conclusively determine authenticity would be price prohibitive, but then that begs the question (yet again), "well then what the hell have you been doing this whole time?"....even though the answer to that is quite clear now.

[Lordstan]

Ha. Just as i finished typing, i went to eBay and surprise surprise, the seller of the Ferrell was vintagecollections1.

He is obviously reading this thread.

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[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The person in Lewiston, Ill is Roger Till. He has been on ebay and amazon forever.
He has truckloads of bad stuff. On ebay he is vintagecollections1. He has also been olebbstuff.

Is that olebbstuff (13225) possibly f****f the guy is a known forger. Doubtful he'd be able to get his sub through a TPG, and probably has someone doing it for him.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Is that olebbstuff possibly f****f , the guy is a known forger. Doubtful he'd be able to get his sub through a TPG, and probably has someone doing it for him.

No idea if he is f**f or not.
I bought magazines from him under a third ebay name that i dont recall, but i know olebbstuff and vintagecollections1 are the same people.

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[Republicaninmass]

There is still the n****e buyer as well

[atx840]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

There is still the n****e buyer as well

This seller (real name) is known and the one I believe authorities are looking into.

[jad22]

Has anyone heard anything from the authenticators about this? Are they aware that something is broken?

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Is that olebbstuff (13225) possibly f****f the guy is a known forger. Doubtful he'd be able to get his sub through a TPG, and probably has someone doing it for him.

If they randomly use two characters from the username to form the scrambled name, then "f***f" would fit since it has 2 f's. That format works, since I typically show as "t***2" in the scrambled format (my eBay name is same as my name here, with a t and a 2 in the name.

[painthistorian]

as Chris just stated, the seller of my T206 baker is known by the investigative authorities and they do not want this publicly stated as the investigation is on going and CURRENT. as far as e bay fraud dept, they are useless. There may be a network of these sellers so we have to hope they can get to the bottom of this quickly.

There probably are many "better" but far from perfect forgeries out there graded & not graded by TPG's...DO YOUR OWN COMPARISONS and research...I used to write to the HOF and send yellow plaques to the players, so many of them signed so it is pretty obvious that a Rube Marquard plaque signature that I got back from him looks different that those crappy T206's that passed, same with Bill Terry 1933 Goudey. As an educated forum, any collector should really study & LEARN THE SIGNATURES if you collect autographs. There are plenty good ones out there thru google search, if your gut tells you something does not look right, it probably isnt...but this investigation does show one thing TPG services are OPINIONS, hopefully they get more right than wrong but its up to a buyer to educate yourselves as to what you buy. "a leap of faith sometimes can get you banged up"

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by painthistorian

so it is pretty obvious that a Rube Marquard plaque signature that I got back from him looks different that those crappy T206's that passed, same with Bill Terry 1933 Goudey. As an educated forum, any collector should really study & LEARN THE SIGNATURES if you collect autographs. There are plenty good ones out there thru google search, if your gut tells you something does not look right, it probably isnt...but this investigation does show one thing TPG services are OPINIONS, hopefully they get more right than wrong but its up to a buyer to educate yourselves as to what you buy. "a leap of faith sometimes can get you banged up"

Good advice, but these are not low grade fakes. These slabbed t206s and such are professional forgeries, and they are pretty good.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Ha. Just as i finished typing, i went to eBay and surprise surprise, the seller of the Ferrell was vintagecollections1.

He is obviously reading this thread.

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Lots of sketchy Ohio type stuff in his listings.

[painthistorian]

I guess many are good forgeries but side by side, look at Rube Marquard vs. t206 Marquard that actually wraps at a right angle, that one was NOT GOOD even by my untrained eye.

My whole purpose is that everyone that spends real money on autographs should do their own research prior to purchasing such an expensive item, most baseball HOFers have exemplars on items that are available for comparison with a computer...

as for TPG services, we do need referees/experts etc but its time they take some responsibility, example: The Rocky Marciano signed docmentation/letters, many with a particular TPG certification, well those letters are on a stationery of a "magazine" that has no history of existence anywhere that I can locate and I have been in hobby since 1975. Where are those now?, they are still out there and were not bought back even after there was a large discussion about these!

[Republicaninmass]

Agreed that firat Marquard did not sit right with me. The sgc and psa slabbed ones look much better. I'm still an amateur at dicerning, but getting better

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The person in Lewiston, Ill is Roger Till. He has been on ebay and amazon forever.
He has truckloads of bad stuff. On ebay he is vintagecollections1. He has also been olebbstuff.
A few years ago i bought some signed Sport Magazines off him. They were close, but not good under closer inspection. He refunded my money. Around the same time, another member here, Mike R, bought several signed mags from him including Maris, off Amazon. They were rejected when he asked Richard Simon to check them out. He was able to get his money back as well.

If you see someone selling autographs out of Lewiston, Ill, run very far very fast.

I am not saying he is the person behind the t206s, but there are multiple threads about him in Sportscollectors.net being a bad seller..

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He goes way, way back.
Doing the same thing for many years.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

He goes way, way back.
Doing the same thing for many years.

On another forum, someone stated he still sets up at the National. How can we hope to stem the tide of this stuff if someone who has been doing this as long as him can still set up at nationals?