New too Vintage...should I buy raw?

[jared6180]

I am pretty new to vintage. I have seen some raw cards that look really good, but with all the trimming junk going on I can't bring myself to feel good about buying raw cards. Even graded (at least in the lighthouse holder) makes me a little nervous. I am not a high end collector, but I do want cards with good eye appeal that are real. I have read to only buy from people you trust when it comes to raw vintage, but I don't know anybody with vintage of any kind really, much less anyone I trust. I am in Kansas. No shows for MILES and MILES it seems.

Should I just bite the bullet and buy graded even though they cost more?

Where would you start your collection? I am on a fairly tight budget and can't spend thousands on a card or probably more than $200 on a single card in a month.

[swarmee]

There are plenty of honest raw sellers. COMC.com is one where you can see the front and back of each card in high-res, and there's usually a large selection of the same card available.
If you're worried it's trimmed/altered, they'll review it for $2 and give you a rating of what they believe it would grade. If they find that it's altered, they'll reimburse your purchase price by emailing them.
There are other good raw sellers on this board that also sell by auction on eBay.

[jared6180]

Originally Posted by swarmee

There are plenty of honest raw sellers. COMC.com is one where you can see the front and back of each card in high-res, and there's usually a large selection of the same card available.

If you're worried it's trimmed/altered, they'll review it for $2 and give you a rating of what they believe it would grade. If they find that it's altered, they'll reimburse your purchase price by emailing them.

There are other good raw sellers on this board that also sell by auction on eBay.

I had no idea comc did that and had no idea they reimbursed you if they think it’s trimmed/altered. That’s really a great service for just $2. I will give that a look! Thanks!


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[JollyElm]

If you're thinking of buying ungraded cards and are worried about trimming, simply do this:
Ask the seller to measure out the card and confirm that it is the right size. If he/she doesn't respond, that may tell you all you need to know, but if you get a response telling you they measured it and it's of the correct size, you now have documentation of your concerns and their direct answers to you. So, if you buy the card and what they said turns out to be inaccurate (a lie ), you have proof to present to ebay to get your money back and more importantly (hopefully), any postage costs involved. It's not a 100% foolproof method, but it certainly gets you a long way there.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by jared6180

I had no idea comc did that and had no idea they reimbursed you if they think it’s trimmed/altered.

COMC Condition Reviews
Want COMC to take a closer look at your items? We will have 2-3 people independently look at the physical item and determine the condition rating of the item using industry standard terminology.
Instruction
Choose any item from your Inventory Manager and select Submit for Grading from the Actions menu. Then select COMC Condition Review and the turnaround time you prefer.
https://www.comc.com/grading

[jchcollins]

If you want to buy raw there are plenty of reputable, longtime sellers out there who can generally be trusted. My advice would be to find one with good positive feedback and establish a relationship. However if you are going for midgrade or lower anyway, many graded cards can be had for close to if not the same price as a raw example for the 3-5 range. To me, PSA is complicit in this PWCC mess until it's proven otherwise, but I think the chances of less pricey (less than $500) midgrade vintage being altered is probably pretty slim. I could be wrong. If you want to be on the safe side with graded, stick with SGC, they have the least implication in this whole mess.

[mferronibc]

Can I ask a fundamental (newb) question...with all the controversy about grading and altering vintage cards has there ever been widespread complete fraud detected? As in reprints doctored up to look old and sold as authentic? The reason I ask is per John’s point I’d much rather buy a PSA 4-5 than a raw card for the same price because to me there’s as least some guarantee the card is authentic. But that may be a naive assumption on my part: 1) are fakes a big problem in the hobby (I would assume so)? 2) does PSA even do a good job (or care for that matter) of verifying cards are authentic?

[steve B]

Certain cards do get faked, and have in the past. Most of the older ones are pretty easy to spot, and a lot of the newer ones are just printed on a home printer so they look "different". What was faked were usually the hot, high demand cards. there are a couple "sportscard counterfeit detector" books that cover almost all of those done in the late 80's/early 90's

What I'd recommend is buying a batch of cards in about mid grade that's mostly commons. Those will give you a good idea of what a real unaltered card should look and feel like. As usual, no guarantee you won't get an altered card in there, but a whole batch of altered commons would be pretty unusual - the main exception would be 71 Topps, where some people colored edge damage with a marker. I have seen batches of 1-200 of those that were all colored in. Usually it bleeds onto the edge, so a photo of the side of the stack usually makes it obvious.

[lowpopper]

Check out ROOKIE-PARADE. A large percentage of my
inventory is HIGH GRADE vintage raw. Thousands of
customers. 100% positive feedback.


I hear good things about Greg Morris auctions too
regarding nice vintage raw cards.

[jared6180]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

Check out ROOKIE-PARADE. A large percentage of my
inventory is HIGH GRADE vintage raw. Thousands of
customers. 100% positive feedback.


I hear good things about Greg Morris auctions too
regarding nice vintage raw cards.

My question is that if you are in possession of cards like this why not grade them?

[wdwfan]

I buy raw. It's all I buy. I look for mid grade cards.

[wdwfan]

I'd never grade a card no matter the condition. Why do I want to pay someone to tell me the condition my card is in when I can do the same for free.

I look for Ex to Ex-Mt at minimum and NM mainly when it comes to vintage. But it's hard finding non-graded examples in the higher grade. But I just don't want to deal in it at all.

Originally Posted by jared6180

My question is that if you are in possession of cards like this why not grade them?

[mferronibc]

But what I don’t understand is how are you determining the real condition of a raw card by looking at a pic on EBay before buying? Don’t you ever buy one then receive it and be like wow that looks a lot worse than the pic?! To me no matter how flawed the grading system is at least to some degree I know what I’m getting. I can certainly understand buying raw more in the old days of card shops or at a show cause you see the card up close.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

But what I don’t understand is how are you determining the real condition of a raw card by looking at a pic on EBay before buying? Don’t you ever buy one then receive it and be like wow that looks a lot worse than the pic?! To me no matter how flawed the grading system is at least to some degree I know what I’m getting. I can certainly understand buying raw more in the old days of card shops or at a show cause you see the card up close.

I'm most interested in creases/wrinkles, so zoom in and make sure its crease free. If the description is poor (and theres alot of that) I'll send a message.

But more than that is, you're protected, if you don't like it or it measures short you can get your $$ back.

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[OlderTheBetter]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

But what I don’t understand is how are you determining the real condition of a raw card by looking at a pic on EBay before buying? Don’t you ever buy one then receive it and be like wow that looks a lot worse than the pic?! To me no matter how flawed the grading system is at least to some degree I know what I’m getting. I can certainly understand buying raw more in the old days of card shops or at a show cause you see the card up close.

The answer to this one has always been obvious to me so I don't buy raw cards that cost more than $20 if I can't inspect it up close.

Occasionally I get a bad apple that was graded correctly but has some flaw that I didn't see in the online pics. But usually that is my fault for not inspecting more closely. Sonetimes not though -- I've received some cards that had edge damage that was not clear in the online pic. There are a lot of shady card sellers online so buying graded and then crackout has always worked best for me.

[OlderTheBetter]

Originally Posted by steve B

Certain cards do get faked, and have in the past. Most of the older ones are pretty easy to spot, and a lot of the newer ones are just printed on a home printer so they look "different". What was faked were usually the hot, high demand cards. there are a couple "sportscard counterfeit detector" books that cover almost all of those done in the late 80's/early 90's.

What is most scary to me is the very high quality of the more recent reprints. The technology is making it harder every day to spot these without a jewelers loupe and 10x magnification. The size is right -- the colors are right -- gloss perfect. They look fantastic until you observe the card back.

The back is where you can see more. Easier to copy a card front than back IMHO; getting the back's printing and colors right is no easy feat. Usually it's the ink color that is wrong but sometimes even the color of the card stock is just not right. Very scary stuff though. I can see a day in the future where 1960s Topps cards will be counterfeited so well that only the technology of the graders will detect them. I have some reprints that are just outstanding replications. Showed a couple to my local LCS owner and he was shocked at how good they've become.

[wdwfan]

This right here. Although I agree with some that condition is on a per seller basis. Like I just bought a couple of cards from a buyer on here. He said they were Ex+. But both came with creases. I didn't get a response when I questioned. Thought about asking for a return, but since I didn't get a response, I didn't figure I'd get a response to the return request either. It was a purchase by the way.

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

I'm most interested in creases/wrinkles, so zoom in and make sure its crease free. If the description is poor (and theres alot of that) I'll send a message.

But more than that is, you're protected, if you don't like it or it measures short you can get your $$ back.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[steve B]

Originally Posted by OlderTheBetter

What is most scary to me is the very high quality of the more recent reprints. The technology is making it harder every day to spot these without a jewelers loupe and 10x magnification. The size is right -- the colors are right -- gloss perfect. They look fantastic until you observe the card back.

The back is where you can see more. Easier to copy a card front than back IMHO; getting the back's printing and colors right is no easy feat. Usually it's the ink color that is wrong but sometimes even the color of the card stock is just not right. Very scary stuff though. I can see a day in the future where 1960s Topps cards will be counterfeited so well that only the technology of the graders will detect them. I have some reprints that are just outstanding replications. Showed a couple to my local LCS owner and he was shocked at how good they've become.

It's already possible to reprint something exactly. But so far nobody has put in the effort.
The graders are not all that good, as you can see from how badly they miss alterations.

I'd love to see some of those really good fakes. Most of the ones I find out about are of fairly expensive cards, and I just don't have the budget to buy them.
I have one I bought a few years ago that was convincing viewed online, but not in person. (It was only $10)
It's possible there are good quality fakes coming out of China.

[mferronibc]

Has there ever actually been a reported case of a known fake sent to PSA that was graded out authentic?

[Rookiemonster]

The true consequences of this grading debacle is that Raw and Graded must be treated exactly the same. Both now run a equal chance of being altered or authentic. This is the precise reason grading is officially dead. When measured up like this I much rather have a raw card to inspect and own .


In time most will forget and move on as if nothing happened. But I never will no matter what new fangled idea that proves that it’s authentic. No matter how many certified stickers you put them on it.


Added bonus : no more extra cost to collecting .

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

If you're thinking of buying ungraded cards and are worried about trimming, simply do this:
Ask the seller to measure out the card and confirm that it is the right size. If he/she doesn't respond, that may tell you all you need to know, but if you get a response telling you they measured it and it's of the correct size, you now have documentation of your concerns and their direct answers to you. So, if you buy the card and what they said turns out to be inaccurate (a lie ), you have proof to present to ebay to get your money back and more importantly (hopefully), any postage costs involved. It's not a 100% foolproof method, but it certainly gets you a long way there.

According to a representative of SGC that I spoke with on the phone, the measurement of a card is actually the LAST thing they look at when determining if it has been trimmed. Makes sense due to the inconsistencies involved in the factory cutting processes of yesteryear.