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  #51  
Old 03-04-2008, 04:41 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: Jason L

I covet that Miller card, and in fact, Mr. Wonka has given me permission to display it (fully credited) on my website! That is probably as close as I will come to ever owning one at all, and I'm thrilled to be able to use an image of such an incredible card.

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  #52  
Old 03-04-2008, 04:52 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: Louis Bollman

There are many different reasons in my opinion why the high-grade cards are not showing up with the same frequency as they once were.

1) There are a fair amount of collectors that had, in my opinion, tremendous net worth that purchased cards from particular issues when they were "hot". After the dust settled a little and some prices have come back to reality those collectors don't really have any incentive to sell at lower prices than when they bought.

2) Some of the collectors that were supposed novices (started collecting in the last 15 years or so) were going nuts for everything high-grade or rare at the same time as they were building nice Topps, Bowman, and Goudey sets. And while some of those collectors started shedding off parts of their collections (the parts that they could rebuild again if they wanted) they kept the cards that were truly special (high-grade, rare, or even high-grade and rare). I personally know of handful of these collections where the collectors are, for the most part, no longer active in the hobby but still hold enough special cards that would make any major auction house's year if they decided to consign and at the same time would drive the collecting community nuts over having to make decisions on which cards to buy and which to pass on.

3) Our's is a small world. When truly special cards do fall into a dealer's hands (speaking for myself and a few others that I know) we already know: A) who wants the cards, B) who is willing to pay a fair price, C) won't give us a hard time if we need a premium price for a premium card, and D) can pay for the card(s) promptly. All of this without having to deal with some of the knuckleheads on *Bay or wait, sometimes a long, long time for your items to reach an audience in a major auction.

4) Many dealers are collectors as well. No one can dispute that the best, most knowledgeable and most personable dealers have enjoyed a great deal of success in the last 10-20 years. So many of these dealers (who are already have the collecting bug and vast knowledge in their perspective area of expertise) will sift off what is truly the best part of the occasional collection if it is something that scratches their collecting itch. And on the occasion that they either have to or want to sell off a part of their own collection they often already have their best customers waiting in line without ever having to go to the open market. For instance, my wife's non-sport collection has been viewed by less than a handful of people outside of our family and everyone that has viewed it in part or in it's entirety has been, what I consider, to be a good friend or client in the collecting community. My wife has only been collecting for about 12 years while our collecting friends that have viewed it have been collecting non-sports for 20-40 years. If she ever decided that she wanted to sell it who do you think would get first shot; someone that has been to our home, helped her collect and traded with her based on need/want versus book price or someone she's never met? This really isn't a tough question.

5) As the hobby advances we have more and more people looking for the best stuff. If a new guy coming into the hobby (or even a used guy that wasn't aware of all of the nuances to some of the issues) just viewed the "Network54" vintage forums they can be armed with the knowledge to make purchases and hold on to things that they come across that would have, in years past, been brought to open market and available for the most advanced collectors to purchase. Go back 10-15 years, at that time could you even imagine a collector in his first months, or even a year for that matter, purchasing (with confidence) a rare cabinet card, an obscure regional issue, or attempt building an "E" card set? I can't. The online communities have given all fans of collecting a resource of knowledge that is the equivalent of hundreds, maybe thousands of years in the making.

Just my humble thoughts on the subject,

Louis Bollman
louis@louisbollman.com

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  #53  
Old 03-04-2008, 06:34 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: David Seaborn

I've certainly notice what Bruce is talking about, but to me this has been a general trend for several years now. Those of use who frequented shows years ago, such as the Ft. Washington show in the original location can remember really nice (and uncommon) cards being present. You just don't see them very much anymore. Go talk to someone with a lot of knowledge, like Terry Knouse, and ask him if he's seen the same pattern over the last few years at shows and major auctions, I'm sure he would 'Yes, absolutely!'.

Why is this? You have to remember there are high-grade vintage collectors with big appetites, especially on rare issues. They buy these cards when a 'find' is made or an old collector retires from the hobby and then squirrel them away in their collections, banks safety deposit boxes. Heck, I know of some that have even started museums and non-profits to keep the collections going. My point is that once bought, many of these cards will not see the light of day for years, maybe even generations. Add that to the fact that over time there are necessarily fewer and fewer 'finds', and I find it not surprising that the well is gradually running dry. For the truly rare and high grade vintage cards there's just way more demand than supply, that's why you can find a buyer but finding a seller is harder than licking your elbow.

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  #54  
Old 03-04-2008, 07:02 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: bruce Dorskind


We agree with nearly all of Mr. Bollman's observations.

As the legendary designer Ralph Lauren noted, shortly
after he founded his company: ..."Quality Never Goes
Out of Style."

The hobby has witnessed many changes since we began
collecting three decades ago. One trend that has not
changed is that rare cards in high grades not only hold
their value, but continually increase in value.

The market for said cards, whilst "thin", is now controlled
by a dozen or so very, very successful, ambitious and
wealthy people. They will only sell when they lose interest.

At the same time the supply of the hobby's most important
and rarest cards remains relatively stable.

We also agree with Mr. Shanus comments about private "under the
radar" transactions taking place. From time to time these "sales"
result in buying opportunities.

We appreciate all of the observations. and look forward to
meeting the challenges of an ever more fiercely competitive
market.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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  #55  
Old 03-04-2008, 07:08 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: John

Thanks guys for the kind words on the Miller, I really have no intention of collecting the t207 set per say but I always wanted the Lowdermilk card must have been that page in Beckett’s #3 that showed notable cards from Halper’s collection. So when the Miller came up I took a stab at it, I was very surprised at the ending price as well for the record. Now I’m stuck I need a Lewis in 5 or better..LOL

Speaking of Lewis’s...Louis that has to be one of the better posts I’ve read on here in sometime, kudos and well said.

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  #56  
Old 03-04-2008, 07:13 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: John

"We appreciate all of the observations. and look forward to
meeting the challenges of an ever more fiercely competitive
market."

Me too, are you playing the Powerball this weekend as well Bruce?

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  #57  
Old 03-04-2008, 07:14 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: MVSNYC

edit

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  #58  
Old 03-04-2008, 07:48 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: Jeff Prizner

ok, but any pics of you and Jillian Mike?

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  #59  
Old 03-04-2008, 08:03 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: MVSNYC

edit

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  #60  
Old 03-05-2008, 04:06 AM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: barrysloate

Michael- wasn't the White Party out in East Hampton?

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  #61  
Old 03-05-2008, 07:37 AM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: MVSNYC

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  #62  
Old 03-05-2008, 08:26 AM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: barrysloate

You had me there for a moment Michael...I heard a rumor that you and Lindsay were an item.

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  #63  
Old 03-05-2008, 08:30 AM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: MVSNYC

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  #64  
Old 03-05-2008, 03:07 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: cmoking

"With all due respect when they do come out do you bid on them? I know I will be auctioning off a few ultra high grade vintage cards in the near future. I expect you will be bidding to win "


Bruce's bark is much much much much much MUCH bigger than his bite. IMO, he's got many fooled by his posts.

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  #65  
Old 03-05-2008, 08:37 PM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I don't think it's an issue of the high-grade prewar material drying up at all. I think it's an issue of sellers becoming more educated as to the best way to find the buyers who will spend the most money.

To be discouraged because you can no longer find high grade prewar cards at the garage sale is one thing, but to claim they no longer exist is entirely another; one need only look through the myriad of auction catalogs to see that they're out there. It's just that sellers are better educated at how to get the most for their material.

-Al

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  #66  
Old 03-06-2008, 04:18 AM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: Brian

When someone defines a hobby transaction as always having a winner and a loser, I'd agree its nearly impossible anymore to buy super-duper-ultra-max-high-grade-cards where the seller loses.

I have seen many examples on the BST where a card matches the funky-bunch's wantlist yet still goes unsold. Hmmmm, why is that?

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  #67  
Old 03-06-2008, 05:55 AM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: Zinn

What is a "funky-bunch". Is that like an armpit? Splain...

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  #68  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:01 AM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: Jason L

the Bruces...

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  #69  
Old 03-06-2008, 06:04 AM
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Default Where Have All The Ultra High Grade Cards Gone?

Posted By: Zinn

That makes sense.

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