Major problem with eBay - Help is requested!

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Hello All,

Today I ran into a major problem with eBay and I'm hoping the board can help me out in this situation with some advice. Well, let me start at the beginning...

About 3 weeks ago, I listed a Babe Ruth autographed 8*10 for sale on eBay. However, 5 days after I listed it, eBay canceled my auction, stating that a PSA/DNA quick opinion had been made on the piece, and that it was probably unauthentic. When I read the news, my jaw dropped. I have been collecting vintage autographs for a long time, and I am almost certain that every piece I own or sell is 100% authentic. However, this story has a funny twist... You see, this Babe Ruth autographed photo came directly from Jim Spence. In fact, I still have the original receipt from the purchase of the photo of him. So, here's my problem - Spence has just said a picture he sold is unauthentic. This not only cost me a sale, but also got me a warning from eBay. I emailed eBay with a copy of the receipt from Spence's sale as well as a lengthy explaination. However, as you can imagine, eBay never responded. I decided to wait to talk to Spence about the incident in person at the National, rather than try to get to the bottom of this problem over the phone... The way I see it, he has sold me an unauthentic photo of Ruth (even though this photo is 100% authentic and I'm sure of it...). Anyway, so I thought that this matter would simply have died here and I would just sulk for a couple days over the lost sale but get over it! Well, I was wrong!

Here's where this story gets worse and I need help...

At the same time, I was also auctioning off a Cap Anson signed piece. Now, this autograph was purchased from Chistopher Klem. One of the high bidders at that time had purchased the PSA/DNA quick opinion on the autograph and it came back as being "probably authentic". That bidder ended up being outbid, and the Anson piece sold to a dfferent high bidder. Well, after about 2 weeks of having not received the payment and getting no response via email from this high bidder, I filed a non-paying bidder report with eBay and relisted the Cap Anson signed piece this past Sunday on eBay.

About ten minutes ago, I received an email from eBay stating they have ended my auction for the Cap Anson signed piece. The email said "We regret to inform you that we have consulted with an independent professional
third party verification service, which has concluded that the following
listing(s) is inappropriate:


2736715392 ADRIAN CAP ANSON SIGNED AUTOGRAPHED DISPLAY"

The email then went on to say "Since this is not the first occurrence of a violation of this sort, eBay has
reviewed your listings and decided that we will decline to accept your
autographed listings in the future unless certain conditions are met."

Now, this is a major problem since this same autograph was verified as being probably authentic by PSA/DNA only 3 weeks ago!! What the heck!! I'm down right p*ssed off and have no idea what I can do now?! To add injury to insult - I have now been suspended?! eBay has said that if I get all my autographs verified by PSA/DNA, I can resell. Well, for the $250 they want for authenticated pieces, they can shove their authentication service right up their rear end. I mean, how could I even trust PSA/DNA to authenticate my autographs when Spence can't even authenticate his own pieces - after all, he sold me a fake Ruth 8*10, right? (This is sarcasm here by the way).

So, what do I do? - Any suggestions? If nothing can be done, this can at least be a lesson to all. I'm not out any cash here, and I know my autographs are good - but this is a shot at my reputation - I have 100% positive feedback, and over 200 of my feedbacks have come from autographs. This problem outlines how bogus this PSA/DNA quick opinion service truly is. I mean, come on, we all know you can't verify autographs from a scan, but god - eBay has taken this too far! Quick Opinion is a marketing ploy to milk another $7.00 out of the hobby, but I can't see any viable way to get around it...

I have contacted eBay with a lengthy email detailing this whole situation again, and I'm hoping we can resolve the issue. However, since I only generate about $1000 is sales a month on ebay, I'm confident they are going to just p*ss on me. So, any suggestions as to what I can do here? If anyone has any similar stories with ebay or PSA/DNA, I'd really like to hear them too. I'd like to at least have some ammo with me when I take on ebay Also, besides advice - anyone have a number to call? I searched and searched but could only come up with the email address I need to use...

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Posted By: dan mckee

WOW! How can they do this and let the many doctored reprint cards be sold as real????? This is amazing and 1 reason why I try to stay away from autographs. I am sorry about your misfortune but unfortunately, ebay plays GOD and plays it well. When they suspended me for shill bidding with another collector who they thought was me, I would have been completely stuck if it wasn't for a lawyer who knew a lawyer at ebay. There is no recourse once the moron sending you the support mails from ebay deems you are wrong. It is unbelievable.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

For those of you who don't know me on the boards, my eBay id is joncanfield19 - you can check out my feedback if you would like to see that I am an honest seller...

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Posted By: dan mckee

You only get a number to call if you are a powerseller. If a powerseller is caught giving that number out, he will be expelled from ebay.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Since Ebay has no viable competition they can, unfortunately, do whatever they want. If you think their actions are crazy check out their stock price. How can anyone justify buying a stock with a 100+ P/E? Who said the days of irrational exuberance are dead?

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

http://www.auctionguild.com/generic17.html

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Posted By: petecld

Jon,

You may just have the tiger by the tail. Each time eBay has been sued by a party getting stuck with a fake item their defense has been that eBay is just an mechanism to get a buyer and seller together and that they don't approve users (both buyers & sellers) so they have no liablility if a transaction goes bad.

I'm not a lawyer but what they are doing in your case seems to go against that defense.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I appreciate your help - I figured this is a losing battle and not one I would really try to to fight anyway... I checked out a company called online-authenticators and for $19.95, they will verify an item and put a link in your auction that an item is authentic. Maybe's its worth it just to avoid this crap from happening. The question I then have is, when I go to re-auction my Ruth or Anson (if both are authenticated I guess), is eBay going to remove the auction regardless? Their customer relations suck! I am a powerseller - I'll have to figure out that number!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I've never heard of this. How does it work if the authenticator doesn't even have the item in hand? How can you tell it isn't a picture of a picture, for example?

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

And the major focus of my complaint not only against eBay, but PSA/DNA's quick opinion and all other online authentication for that matter. All PSA/DNA does is look at the scan that is provided in the auction, and gives the bidder a response of "probably authentic" or "probably not authentic". eBay then uses PSA/DNA's evaluation for the basis of their suspension... It is absolutely ridiculous - we all know you can't authenticate items from a scan!! It's impossible and very frustrating for a seller. This is my reputation on the line. You know, I do find it funny that the email from eBay stated that PSA/DNA looked at the item and doesn't think it is real, but I can send it to them for $150 and have them tell me for sure.... Hmmm, who's in bed with who here?!

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Posted By: david

i wish they ebay was this vigilant when it comes to paper cut outs and obvious fakes. the problem here is with the psa/dna quick opinion. how can spence tell the subtleties involved in determining autos from a scan. and then there is the obviously the problem of determining an item to be authentic and not. it is not like anson autos are so common that you wouldnt remember authenticating one a month ago and not remembering the same item a few weeks later.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

This eBay system has a major flaw. For example, take my Ruth and Anson items. Let's say I go and get them authenticated using PSA/DNA - bite the bullet and spend the $150 and $175. Now, let’s say both items come back as 100% authentic. So, I've now been penalized by eBay for selling two autographs that appeared fake with a quick opinion, but were later proven to be authentic. See eBay has no system set up were I can resubmit proof that an autographed deemed unauthentic is, in fact, authentic. Now, I have a beautiful Doubleday letter at home I was thinking about auctioning off. This letter was actually on display in the HOF for 4 years, and comes with a letter from the HOF stating where it was kept in the museum (but I have no intentions of sending it to PSA/DNA for authentication – they want $300 to do it). So, let's say I list this item and eBay uses a third party examiner and they say the autograph is fake. I will now be suspended from eBay for a "3 strikes and you're out" policy. Take in mind though, in this hypothetical scenario, the first 2 strikes came on autographs that were deemed fake but later proven authentic. eBay leaves no room for retribution so their system is not only wrong, but flawed. This is a definite problem as I see it.

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Posted By: dan mckee

DO NOT SEND it to PSA, hand carry it or risk it being lost or stolen before it is logged into there system. I am speaking from experience!

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Posted By: Hankron

Someone is encouraged to point out if my speculation is incorrect, but I am not certain that Spence does (or does the bulk of) the online image judgement that you are speaking of.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Your point about Spence doing online authentication is well taken and I'm not sure... I'm still under the impression he heads, or rather is the lead authenticator - and it is still a breakdown there... Also, Dan, I've been folowwing your problem - I should go as far as to video tape me types there responses so I can later prove to PSA/DNA I sought help! (j/k - good luck with your ongoing battle!)

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I would like everyone to know that I have talked with Steve Grad regarding my problems via email. He has stated that the Anson piece was only submitted once to PSA/DNA via quick opinion and that it was deemed unauthentic. Now, I do have an original email from the high bidder at the time stating that he submitted the piece for online authentication and that the piece came back good. He then made me an offer to end the eBay auction early, which I did not accept. His online authentication was done at my request (when he questioned me about this how I can guarantee the Anson is authentic) As for now, I will keep the board posted on any new developements as I am contacting the original emailer to find out any numbers he can provide me about his online submission to PSA/DNA of my Anson that came back good. I must admit I'm very happy to see that PSA/DNA has extended help to me in this situation.

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Posted By: Hankron

In the end, you may choose to take it to PSA/DNA or Mike Gutierrez (or one of a few others) for their in person examination. As Spence (PA), Gutierrez (AZ), PSA (CA) and GAI (Gutierrez, CA) are spread throughout the country and all do some travelling/shows, I'm sure it wouldn't be too much trouble to hand it off in person. If you end up getting a paper LOA from one of these folks, you will probably get a higher sell price than in the first place. So, if it works out, all this trouble you've had to deal with will work to your benefit.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Dan, I know you have had problems with PSA, but boy has Steve helped me out. I am appologizing fpr more or less bad-mouthing PSA/DNA - after all, my real problem was with eBay and not really PSA/DNA. Anyway - here's the update - I have an email froma gentleman which claims he had the Anson authenticated online and tendered me an offer. I will send a scan of the email to anyone if they want to verify this, however I don't think anyone really cares. The Anson is my mistake, as I relied on information provided to me by a bidder and should have just questioned PSA/DNA in the first place. The Ruth, however, is no ones fault. As I now understand it, Ruth signatures originally believed to be true and authentic were later proven to be secretarial (sp?) Anyway, this one may have slipped through. The man I purchased the Ruth from has offered a refund and Steve will be helping me as soon as I get him scans. So, I believe this post to now be dead with a happy ending for all! Again, I do want to say PSA/DNA really came through. If only eBay had customer service as good as they do!

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Posted By: michael frost

PLEASE SEND ALL INFORMATION AND COPIES WITH RECEIPTS TO THE I.A.D.A. ..PO BOX 848486 HOLLYWOOD FLORIDA 33084..THIS WILL BE VERY HELPFUL .WE ARE PUTTING TOGETHER A FILE ... OR GO TO IACC-DA.COM

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Posted By: dan mckee

Great Jon! Glad you are getting some help from the Steve guy. Glad to see some customer service is out there! Even though it isn't me directly, I am always glad to hear good news! Who knows, just maybe justice will be served in my case as well. take care and my best, Dan.

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Posted By: another sodomized ebayer

It's a very sad story... a very pathetic story and I'm sure a very true story... truth be told... you're screwed....

I completely agree with you... in my opinion and probably the opinion of most other people - you are getting it shoved right up your posterior end...

All of the so called experts are there to make a buck and authenticate fraud... I remember reading an item description on ebay once that stated that someone held up an autographed item from across the aisle and Jim Spence gave it the thumbs up from that distance... that was enough to tell me that this hobby really sucks and that Jim Spence and the rest of those morons may be able to count the money they make but they can't seriously believe that they are doing the hobby any good...

ebay and paypal SUCK. Try disputing a claim through paypal and see what happens... but then again after you understand the relationship between the two companies you'll understand why they SUCK...

Good luck with this "challenge" of yours...

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Posted By: jay behrens

I've heard more than a few PayPal horror stories, but the 2 times I had to file claims aginst a seller, I got a refund from PayPal right away.

Jay

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Let me first say how sorry I am to hear of the garbage Jon's been dealing with from ebay concerning your auctions. Having read many of Jon's posts on this forum and witnessed the high esteem with which other members of this forum hold him. I personally have little doubt that the items he's are offering are legit. I also have to agree with the other folks who have responded to this thread that grading an item, especially an autographed one by viewing a scan or other reproduced image for authenticity is - nuts. If I were in an authenticator's shoes and dealing with a highly desirable or expensive item, I would definitely want to view it "in hand". I think ebay PSA/DNA over the internet authentication leaves too much room for error in my opinion. I think after reading stories from other members of this forum that ebay's policies regarding fraudulent items, authentication, etc. are nothing if not inconsistent. I agree with other posts on this forum, that how can Jon's auction's be viewed so supiciously for no real reason and have his account suspended while some "con artist" can post hundreds of auctions of supposedly "graded" spalding guide cut-outs or obviously fake or altered cards and stay under ebay's radar after being complained about for god knows how long. I think that we may be giving ebay too much credit or too often the benefit of the doubt. Simply put, they're in it for the money, and that in the end is where they're loyalty lies. Time and time again people complain to ebay about fakes, altered cards, bad sellers, etc., and either ebay ignores us or fails to take action. I really hope that Jon gets some justice when this is all said and done. I enjoy ebay and having a site like theirs to buy and sell cards and memorabilia is convienent and fun, but I'm getting tired of being ignored by them every time I have a problem or report a bad egg. I also feel very bad about people like Jon who are dealing with ridiculous circumstances brought on by a company that can't seem to decide when to be strict and when not too. Something has to change.

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Posted By: ebayshouldbebetter

You say the man you bought the Ruth from is offering you a refund. Do you mean Jimmy Spence is offering you a refund on the Ruth?

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Posted By: stephen koschal

Personally I can't understand how ebay can have someone look at a "scan" of any item and have a decision made that can affect your business. A look at a scan cannot ever determine whether an article is either good or bad. The authenticator can only get a "feeling". To make a decision to shut someone down from a "feeling" is nothing less than out of line. This is nothing more than a gimmick to make additional dollars without a total committment by the authenticator. Personally, an authenticating hired me and I quit after two weeks after they wanted me to authenticate from scans. It can't be done and any authenticator with genuine credentials would not sign off on an item from a scan.
I have been a full time autograph dealer/authenticator since 1967.
Stephen Koschal

PS: Don't be concerned about the high prices for authenticating. Come to the National in Atlantic City, have your items authenticated by a three man team whose genuine documented credentials "cannot" be matched in this hobby for a very low fee per item! Go to the booth "100% Authentic"