Is it still possible to build a pre-war collection while avoiding TPGs altogether?

[the 'stache]

About a week ago, I stumbled across a discussion on Net 54 about The Vintage & Classic Baseball Collector magazine. It immediately piqued my interest, as I am always on the lookout for educational material about our hobby. Within the discussion, it was mentioned that issue #7 was substantially more difficult to acquire because it contained an article called "PSA & ASA Card Grading Services: Smoke Detectors Without Batteries". I happened to locate a copy for sale on Ebay, and purchased it. It arrived today. Written by editor & publisher Dennis C. Purdy, Sr., the article was quite critical of the third party graders, and what he saw as a conflict of interest.

Not everyone in the country respects or trusts what [PSA & ASA] do. And some of that mistrust has to do with this: We see a service operated by a very few people that grades cards, publishes price guides based on the grades awarded, and whose owner(s) also buy and sell these same cards. Now if that's not a conflict of interest with the potential to lend itself to fraud and abuse, I've never seen one.

This editorial by Purdy appeared in July of 1996. It was certainly prophetic, as we still vigorously debate the necessity (among other things) of third party graders today.

While reading this article, a question popped into my head: if you want to build a quality pre-war or vintage collection, is it still possible to acquire the cards you want while avoiding these third party graders altogether? In other words, can you still build the collection you want, getting the cards you want in the condition you are completely happy with, while avoiding PSA, SGC, Beckett completely?

There are certainly collectors here who are well established & respected within the pre-war and vintage communities, and those collectors will have in place a network of friends and dealers who can get them what they are looking for. But for people who are comparatively new to the hobby, is it possible put together the collection you want without involving these companies? Or, would this pursuit be folly?

I'm still developing my "eye" when it comes to critically assessing the condition of a baseball card. And so, yes, if I were to buy an ungraded card, I might overpay for it because I have overestimated the card's condition. I have no problem with that. But when I see advertisements like the one below, I get really angry.

This ultimately amounts to price manipulation, in my opinion. Yes, the majority of T206 and Goudey cards I've bought thus far have been graded. But what if I don't want buy graded cards?

[Sean1125]

Yes, but I believe many cards would need to be purchased slabbed since you simply couldn't find them outside of it. Many of the "big" cards.

[Rich Klein]

Of course you can create a pre-war collectyion without TPG, but as Sean says, some cards you would feel much better off when slabbed. I pikced up a few f-g T206's in trade this week, they don't need slabbing but if they were better, I might have thought about that way.

[steve_a]

I think the likelihood of acquiring any significant card, let alone set, without cracking out TPG slabs is small to none. Every buyer needs a willing seller and sellers maximize value by slabbing their cards. The AH slab consignments and purchased collections. The economics will continue to dry up the raw inventory.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The more frightening part of VBCC 7 (I think it was a separate article) was the interview about card doctoring.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The more frightening part of VBCC 7 (I think it was a separate article) was the interview about card doctoring.

Yes and this is why this issue is so coveted!

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Daniel Paul" LOL. Damn he was good though. Set the bar for a whole generation of card doctors.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The more frightening part of VBCC 7 (I think it was a separate article) was the interview about card doctoring.

Yup, good memory, Peter. It's the article directly following the one about the TPGs. The article name is "True and Open Card Restoration: An Idea Whose Time Has Come?" I haven't started it yet, but looking at the examples of cards restored by this person, I think "frightening" is an apropos description.

This magazine is proving to be well worth the $17.98. Between V&CBC and Old Cardboard's back issues, I have a lot of great reading to look forward to.

[MattyC]

I don't really see the grading companies selling the cards they slab these days. I definitely would not feel just using a nearly 20 year old article as the basis to decry grading as a whole. That said, it is enlightening stuff and raises valuable questions, for sure. I personally don't see the sheer act of grading (and subsequent increase in value) as price manipulation. I wonder why one would get "really angry" at the sheer existence of a TPG? Cards shouldn't make any collector angry; if they ever made me really angry, then it's time for me to find a new hobby That advertisement strikes me as a company hawking their wares and making a sales pitch; no surprises there.

One can't have it both ways; on the one hand those cards referenced in the advert would only have cost a collector of raw a mere $290. Whereas slabbed they cost the collector of slabbed much more. Are they worth more cash slabbed because of the collectors in that market and what they are willing to pay? Sure. But it seems to me the raw collector there has the edge-- he could have bought and owned the raw, enjoyed them, and if ready to ever sell, had them graded. Every slabbed card, after all, began as a raw card. Now if the raw collector wants that card that has been slabbed and is expecting to pay a raw price, well, as Austin powers would say, 'That train has sailed.' The card has been converted from raw to slabbed and if it was that nice to become a very pricey card, good for whoever found it raw and first had it graded.

The way I see it, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything they don't want. The fact is that buyers clearly feel more comfortable with some type of third-party standard in place. There are guys that swear by and agree no matter what with that standard, and there are guys that in effect grade the graders, ponying up only when a card is accurately or under graded (I fall in the latter category).

If someone is comfortable buying raw and has the eye to detect trimming and the like, I've seen great amounts of raw available and some really nice, affable, knowledgable dealers of raw at shows. So I'm sure it is quite possible. It's all about enjoyment and what gives one pleasure.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by MattyC

If someone is comfortable buying raw and has the eye to detect trimming and the like, I've seen great amounts of raw available and some really nice, affable, knowledgeable dealers of raw at shows. So I'm sure it is quite possible. It's all about enjoyment and what gives one pleasure.

To expand on this, it's very possible to collect only raw, but not if on-line is your primary source of acquisition. Tons of nice raw stuff at good shows, sometimes 80%+ of the room....but anyone selling on-line is going to get their stuff slabbed - the online buyers want it, and they typically sell for more.

[Luke]

Bill,

I agree with your general stance on TPG. I just think they are a necesary evil in this day and age and with so many sales occuring online. Also, I'm a bit of a hypocrite because there are certain situations where I would prefer to buy a slabbed card.
If you don't already, you should subscribe to Mark Macrae's email list. He dislikes grading companies and only deals in raw. He has a large inventory and is a good guy.

[kmac32]

Up to 100 cards of the 121 of my raw W572 strip card set. The last 2 cards I added were in slabs. Was trying to do the set by purchasing only raw cards but to do so was next to inpossible.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I definitely would not feel just using a nearly 20 year old article as the basis to decry grading as a whole.

Many of the points made in the article are as valid today as they were when the magazine was published.

Doug

[JollyElm]

It won't be long until the card companies start slabbing the cards before putting them into packs. It's definitely on the horizon.

[glynparson]

They were slabbing cards and putting in packs back around 2000. You are late to the game sir. I also do not see PSA as price manipulation, shilling yes, simply slab bing not even close. Psa advertising crazy prices for their cards is just good business, after all that's what they are a business. To answer the original question it depends, not if you want certain cards or issues but if you just wanted nicer raw and were not overly focused yes you could still build a decent raw collection. I do feel there would be more altered cards in the average nice raw card collection than would be in holders. I know I have seen collections of many people over the years that ripped grading. All too frequently there collections were not as high end as they thought and very often had a number of trimmed or worse cards in the collection.

[Centauri]

I recently switched from coins to cardboard after not touching baseball cards for 15 years or so. Grading is essential in the coin hobby because counterfeiting and alterations are prevalent. Certain coins like a bust dollar will have 10 fakes for every real one. Old baseball cards are also easy enough to fake.

At least out here in Utah, there really is no way to build a quality prewar collection without buying on-line - and that makes the slab a necessity. You can't hold the card in your hand, and difficult to judge just from a photo. If you really don't like it, buy the card and remove from the holder.

[h2oya311]

The other grading company mentioned in the article, ASA, was run by Alan Hager, who was known for slabbing his own cards.

While I don't think this is still an issue, with respect to PSA, other conflicts of interest definitely still persist. Simply look at the thread related to Small Traditions or any number of other threads on the topic.

Here's my sole ASA graded card example, which, although overgraded, is 100% authentic!! You certainly don't see many ASA holders out there any more!!

[MattyC]

You don't see many Joe D Batting Pose Zeenuts around either-- awesome card!

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I do feel there would be more altered cards in the average nice raw card collection than would be in holders. I know I have seen collections of many people over the years that ripped grading. All too frequently there collections were not as high end as they thought and very often had a number of trimmed or worse cards in the collection.

Absolutely +1.

Cheers,
Blair

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by steve_a

I think the likelihood of acquiring any significant card, let alone set, without cracking out TPG slabs is small to none. Every buyer needs a willing seller and sellers maximize value by slabbing their cards. The AH slab consignments and purchased collections. The economics will continue to dry up the raw inventory.

Absolutely! The TPG lends at least some protection to an on-line transaction, where you can't examine the dot pattern or edges, or blue-light the card. If I'm spending at least into the hundreds, it's going to be a graded example,although eye appeal comes before technical grade for me. If you are attracted to it when you buy it, chances are a prospective buyer will be also in the event you sell, and the converse is just as true.

Interesting post. Best to all,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by glynparson

They were slabbing cards and putting in packs back around 2000. You are late to the game sir. I also do not see PSA as price manipulation, shilling yes, simply slab bing not even close. Psa advertising crazy prices for their cards is just good business, after all that's what they are a business. To answer the original question it depends, not if you want certain cards or issues but if you just wanted nicer raw and were not overly focused yes you could still build a decent raw collection. I do feel there would be more altered cards in the average nice raw card collection than would be in holders. I know I have seen collections of many people over the years that ripped grading. All too frequently there collections were not as high end as they thought and very often had a number of trimmed or worse cards in the collection.

This is right on, and was indeed a common scenario in the early to mid '90's. As Tony Galovich used to say as a sales pitch in his mailings,a card buyer spent 400% of high book and got the card of his dreams (before grading began to police putting cards through a paper press, slightly enlarging them, and then trimming them down to proper size)! However, when the hobby learned to examine the edges under magnification, this process became readily detectable, and a number of dealers (not Galovich) specializing in such shenanigans were forced out of business. I remember going to the regional shows at Rosemont in the Chicago area in the 1990's, and many dealers were looking at the edges of raw cards with a high-powered loupe before they would even offer to buy them, just as I was when purchasing raw after grading had come in. If you weren't careful, you could easily get a trimmed card that was properly sized, and appeared NMt-Mt or better. It did indeed turn out that a number of these "dream cards," which were gem mint to the naked eye, had been altered and rendered ungradeable, beyond "authentic."

IMHO, stick with graded cards for more expensive purchases. Anywhere there is money to be made without a lot of work, there will be a scam artist lurking in the shadows.

Highest regards,

Larry

[kamikidEFFL]

First off this is a pretty great thread. Secondly, I have to say that it's def possible to build a set not using TPG. I feel it would possibly hurt the value a little bit. I myself prefer to have the cards graded but some folks don't. It's interesting to see but most older vintage does seen to be graded simply the fact that the card holds a better value when graded and it shows authenticity. We all know there are many fakes out there even graded ones but still some people feel safer building a set that's graded. I think come near the future it will be harder n harder to find raw cards. It could take much longer to find higher graded ones that have yet to be sent to a TPG.

[japhi]

I actually think TPG's offer great opportunities for guys that collect raw. There are tons of cards sitting in slabs that sell for less than the same or worse card raw.

The submitter thought he had a 7, got a 5, and the guy that collects raw pays ex money for a card that looks NM. The only looser in this deal is the guy that submitted the card hoping for a 7.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Japhi - You make a great point. A low technical grade will command a lower price than the card may have received if it were raw. I have gotten several deals this way. As always buy the card, not the case.

[japhi]

Ya, there are guys selling on ebay making good money cracking mid grade PSA slabs and selling the cards raw for 50% more than they paid for the slabbed card.Tons of value for low/mid grade guys who like cards that are not in plastic.

Not prewar, and not baseball, but I missed on a card last year that was in a 5 slab that looked like an 8 all day. I contacted the seller to see what the flaw was - he was expecting a way better grade but under the proper light there was a minor issue with the surface that PSA found.

Looked like an $400 dollar card and sold for $60, was on vacation or would have pulled the trigger myself. That card looks deadly in some guys binder and when he goes to sell he will find someone to pay 200 bucks for it easy.

I just don't get the hate for TPG's, IMO it's a win for everyone.

[the 'stache]

Hmm, I've never thought about that. Cards that appear better than the technical grade they get because some minor flaw that most people wouldn't see brought it down.

That might be helpful to remember down the road, as for me, a card's eye appeal means more to me than the grade, so long as there are no major issues, like paper loss. I can handle some very slight creases that are difficult to see. I like centered cards, but they don't have to be perfectly centered, just close. The T206 cards in the PSA 4 to 5 range are perfect for me.