OT: Pirates avenge Harvey Haddix game

[Snapolit1]

Check out tonight's Dodger-Pirates game.
Rich Hill loses no hitter in 10th on a homerun. Loses perfect game in 9th on an error.
Neither has happened in baseball history!
Wow.

[Brian Van Horn]

I was thinking the same thing.

[PiratesWS1979]

Love it! hopefully it'll light a fire under 'em down the stretch.

[Mountaineer1999]

One of the enjoyable games I've watched in a long time.

[doug.goodman]

What a great game.

Doug "lifelong Dodger fan" Goodman

[barrysloate]

When was the last time a starting pitcher took the mound in the 10th inning? That alone is a rarity.

And as rare as that game was, what the Dodgers are doing this season is equally amazing. How can they not win it all this year?

[Andrew1975]

I'm in Pittsburgh for work and went to the game last night. Can't say I was really rooting for either team through most of the game, but definitely was pulling for Rich Hill after about the sixth inning. Was certainly a fun one to watch!

[rats60]

The only thing better than a Dodger loss is a Pirates win. Very enjoyable game.

[packs]

Maybe I'm wrong but I seem to remember Jonathan Sanchez lost a perfect game int he 9th when Juan Uribe made an error.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

Maybe I'm wrong but I seem to remember Jonathan Sanchez lost a perfect game int he 9th when Juan Uribe made an error.

Perhaps..but who cares..its an NL game.... Mark Lieter was in the 7th or 8th yesterday as well..... so many NL almost no hitters....

why not wait for this to happen in the AL....then its real... not .9 as good.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Andrew1975

I'm in Pittsburgh for work and went to the game last night. Can't say I was really rooting for either team through most of the game, but definitely was pulling for Rich Hill after about the sixth inning. Was certainly a fun one to watch!

Knowing a little about his history, I was happy for him that he was putting that game together. But I couldn't help hoping that one of the Bucs would break it up.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Perhaps..but who cares..its an NL game.... Mark Lieter was in the 7th or 8th yesterday as well..... so many NL almost no hitters....

why not wait for this to happen in the AL....then its real... not .9 as good.

Maybe you should watch professional golf instead of baseball. Lots of hitting there, lots of long drives, and no swings and misses.

[familytoad]

Originally Posted by Mark

Maybe you should watch professional golf instead of baseball. Lots of hitting there, lots of long drives, and no swings and misses.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=243936



Getting close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and dancing.
Perfect games and no hitters only count in AL after 1973.

Replays showed an infield single count as an out, and at least one batter who should have walked but was called strike 3 during the perfect game bid.
Neither batters were pitchers but I presume that since Hill took the hill against the *inferior* NL that it just doesn't matter.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by familytoad

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=243936



Getting close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and dancing.
Perfect games and no hitters only count in AL after 1973.

Replays showed an infield single count as an out, and at least one batter who should have walked but was called strike 3 during the perfect game bid.
Neither batters were pitchers but I presume that since Hill took the hill against the *inferior* NL that it just doesn't matter.

And presumably none of the perfect games or no-hitters prior to 1973 count.

[Jcfowler6]

Great game. I was there. If you love baseball you loved that game. I'm a big time Pirate fan but I was secretly rooting for a perfect game. After the error I was rooting for my Buccos.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mountaineer1999]

I love the negativity on what was a great baseball game. ever notice how some people are negative on just about everything.

[familytoad]

Not to derail completely, since I really feel that a no hitter and a perfect game counts in both leagues ever since baseball was invented.

Rich Hill's effort is the finest of his career...and despite today's 7 inning environment it should be applauded. Just being in the game in the 10th inning is remarkable!

Some of the membership here (okay maybe just one guy) seems to have an opinion that since the DH was instituted , only AL No-hitters are valid. Whatever...

Anyway,
In the replay era , it's interesting to see how some details of the game play can be scrutinized. The diving play by Chase Utley, the suspicious infield hit called an out by Josh Bell and a suspect third strike against Sean Rodriguez.

Imagine how many details we get to see now that go unmentioned from no hitters in the past. Does anyone know any details about the Johnny Vander Meer no hitters like those situations above that really determined the outcome? Replay is great!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by familytoad

and a suspect third strike against Sean Rodriguez.

I would say that at least two pitches prior to that called third strike could have been called strikes. In addition, the computer graphic showed that the called strike three did in fact touch the strike zone.

[Andrew1975]

Originally Posted by Mark

Knowing a little about his history, I was happy for him that he was putting that game together. But I couldn't help hoping that one of the Bucs would break it up.

I was really just hoping to see a good game, and definitely got one... Was also happy to cross another stadium off my list. For those who haven't been there, PNC Park is very nice (and the pierogis at the concession stand aren't bad either). Rich Hill was very classy with his post game remarks, complimenting the defensive efforts of his infield and outfield, and also giving props to his catcher. Logan Forsythe must feel terrible... Hill seems like a decent guy, and it is always good to see people like that succeed. I can definitely understand the desire to see someone break it up as well (especially if the Pirates are your team).

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

And presumably none of the perfect games or no-hitters prior to 1973 count.

no they count the same as NL....after 1973 the AL no hitter is far superior to the NL no hitter.....plus all of these 'almost no hitters' where we get constant updates of a 6 inning 'gem' by Mark Leiter and the likes are getting annoying . In the age of pitch counts and specialization its even more skewed..

its like 19 out of last 21 no hitters are in NL parks..or something close to that..its not even close...

[Jcfowler6]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

no they count the same as NL....after 1973 the AL no hitter is far superior to the NL no hitter.....plus all of these 'almost no hitters' where we get constant updates of a 6 inning 'gem' by Mark Leiter and the likes are getting annoying . In the age of pitch counts and specialization its even more skewed..

its like 19 out of last 21 no hitters are in NL parks..or something close to that..its not even close...

Why not start your own thread about NL vs AL and let those that loved the game love it?


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[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

no they count the same as NL....after 1973 the AL no hitter is far superior to the NL no hitter.....plus all of these 'almost no hitters' where we get constant updates of a 6 inning 'gem' by Mark Leiter and the likes are getting annoying . In the age of pitch counts and specialization its even more skewed..

its like 19 out of last 21 no hitters are in NL parks..or something close to that..its not even close...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...all_no-hitters

According to wiki, and assuming I counted correctly, there have been 113 no hitters since 1973.
AL - 51
NL - 55
Interleague - 7

Its really only been the last 5 seasons that the NL has dominated the no-hitter scene. From 1973 thru 2012 there were more slightly more AL no-hitters.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Jcfowler6

Why not start your own thread about NL vs AL and let those that loved the game love it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good point, Jon. It was a wonderful contest. A no hitter is certainly a rarity in Pittsburgh--how many have there been? I think that there have been 5 since 1901. I'm glad that you were there. A perfect game would have been a memory for a lifetime--in fact, a near perfect game like that one would be hard to forget.

[Jcfowler6]

Originally Posted by Mark

Good point, Jon. It was a wonderful contest. A no hitter is certainly a rarity in Pittsburgh--how many have there been? 3? I'm glad that you were there. A perfect game would have been a memory for a lifetime--in fact, a near perfect game like that one would be hard to forget.

I love baseball and the Bucs. Just want to enjoy it. I have no problem with debates but this thread isn't for that.

It was a very fun game.


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[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

no they count the same as NL....after 1973 the AL no hitter is far superior to the NL no hitter.....

Sure, but by the same rationale, after 1973 the AL no-hitter is far superior to the pre-1973 no-hitter -- unless you're arguing that it's something other than the inclusion of a DH that makes a no-hitter really count, in which case I guess I missed your point but would love to know what it is.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...all_no-hitters

According to wiki, and assuming I counted correctly, there have been 113 no hitters since 1973.
AL - 51
NL - 55
Interleague - 7

Its really only been the last 5 seasons that the NL has dominated the no-hitter scene. From 1973 thru 2012 there were more slightly more AL no-hitters.

5 years is an eternity in terms of changes. Ask Bonds and Mcgwire and when ground rule doubles used to be home runs i believe.

You are correct the NL has dominated the no hitter scene. Thats why they arent' worth the same as AL. 19 of the last 21 no hitters in NL parks? Plus its about a 7-1 ratio in terms of 7 inning almost no hitters Talking about 1975 is the same thing as talking about 1933 right now. Those are both ancient history.

I've been talking about this for awhile and the pace keeps corroborated what I have been saying. Like i been saying, lets see two AL no hitters occur back to back and you wont hear anything else from me on this subject.

[darwinbulldog]

I'll do better. I have a PSA 2 1955 Topps Clemente that says at least 2 of the next 5 no-hitters will be in the AL. Do you have anything comparable to put up?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

5 years is an eternity in terms of changes. Ask Bonds and Mcgwire and when ground rule doubles used to be home runs i believe.

You are correct the NL has dominated the no hitter scene. Thats why they arent' worth the same as AL. 19 of the last 21 no hitters in NL parks? Plus its about a 7-1 ratio in terms of 7 inning almost no hitters Talking about 1975 is the same thing as talking about 1933 right now. Those are both ancient history.

I've been talking about this for awhile and the pace keeps corroborated what I have been saying. Like i been saying, lets see two AL no hitters occur back to back and you wont hear anything else from me on this subject.

You were the one that brought up 1973 and you have been proven wrong. Now if you want to amend your argument and say NL no hitters since 2012 don't count as much...

[packs]

What does worth more even mean? What is it you want to see happen? Should an AL pitcher get 2 wins, 2 complete games, and 2 shut outs for every no hitter? And should an NL pitcher have to pitch 2 no hitters to be credited with one? I just can't understand what the argument is.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by rats60

You were the one that brought up 1973 and you have been proven wrong. Now if you want to amend your argument and say NL no hitters since 2012 don't count as much...

How was i proven wrong? There have been more NL no hitter than AL hitters..and even more so now. I didnt say NL no hitters shouldnt count...i said they are worth .9 as much and the stats show now that I may be giving the AL too much credit.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I'll do better. I have a PSA 2 1955 Topps Clemente that says at least 2 of the next 5 no-hitters will be in the AL. Do you have anything comparable to put up?

Haha.that bascially means that putting your money where your mouth means 40% of the next 5 no hitters will be in the AL....thats not a strong statement in saying that NL /AL no hitters are basically the same......If you want to go since 1973 people are saying its even basically. I was giving NL no hitters .9 of the value of AL no hitters.

I bascically tired of the almost no hitter for NL contests. Rich Hill has 2 of them in the past year. Marlins had a no hitter last game of the year by the great Henderson Alverez not long ago..and Edison Volquez this year. Its getting pretty ridiculous..

Id rather give up 1 hit then walk 4 guys with no hits..but thats another issue..

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

What does worth more even mean? What is it you want to see happen? Should an AL pitcher get 2 wins, 2 complete games, and 2 shut outs for every no hitter? And should an NL pitcher have to pitch 2 no hitters to be credited with one? I just can't understand what the argument is.

I stated that an NL no hitter should be worth more than a AL no hitter and not given equal praise. All i hear about is how they are the same but its clear now that they arent...19 of of last 21 or so no hitters being in the NL isnt a trend anymore... Since i made my first post about this on net54 there have been 3 or 4 NL no hitters and zero AL ones, that doesnt exactly refute my argument.


If it gets to 40 of 44 ..we are supposed to throw a parade of the NL no hitter? When will it be unreasonable? Never?

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

after 1973 the AL no hitter is far superior to the NL no hitter

if you'd said 2013 and not 1973, there'd be no argument. But you wrote 1973, so it can be debated whether or not 55-51 is "far superior"

[packs]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I stated that an NL no hitter should be worth more than a AL no hitter and not given equal praise. All i hear about is how they are the same but its clear now that they arent...19 of of last 21 or so no hitters being in the NL isnt a trend anymore... Since i made my first post about this on net54 there have been 3 or 4 NL no hitters and zero AL ones, that doesnt exactly refute my argument.


If it gets to 40 of 44 ..we are supposed to throw a parade of the NL no hitter? When will it be unreasonable? Never?

But what does worth more mean? What do you want to see happen?

[Mark]

If feel almost like I'm feeding a troll now, but here goes: Perfect games are more difficult, and thus more significant, than no - hitters. Now, if I am not mistaken, 4 of the last 6 perfect games were thrown against American League teams. If we take the principle that the league with the most no-hitters is the weaker league, and if we apply that principle to perfect games, then we must conclude that the American League fields much weaker teams (by a ratio of 3:2) than does the senior circuit--at least over the last decade. QED

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Haha.that bascially means that putting your money where your mouth means 40% of the next 5 no hitters will be in the AL....thats not a strong statement in saying that NL /AL no hitters are basically the same......If you want to go since 1973 people are saying its even basically. I was giving NL no hitters .9 of the value of AL no hitters.

I bascically tired of the almost no hitter for NL contests. Rich Hill has 2 of them in the past year. Marlins had a no hitter last game of the year by the great Henderson Alverez not long ago..and Edison Volquez this year. Its getting pretty ridiculous..

Id rather give up 1 hit then walk 4 guys with no hits..but thats another issue..

Rob's right. What you said is "far superior" not "10% better" or anything like that, and I'm perfectly happy to win the wager if the AL gives us 60% or 80% or 100% of the next 5 no-hitters, but I thought given that you were making the case that about 90% of no hitters now come from the NL that you'd have been delighted with the terms of my offer. It appears that I was wrong. No problem. If anyone else is interested though, you know where to find me. Offer stands.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Mark

If feel almost like I'm feeding a troll now, but here goes: Perfect games are more difficult, and thus more significant, than no - hitters. Now, if I am not mistaken, 4 of the last 6 perfect games were thrown against American League teams. If we take the principle that the league with the most no-hitters is the weaker league, and if we apply that principle to perfect games, then we must conclude that the American League fields much weaker teams (by a ratio of 3:2) than does the senior circuit--at least over the last decade. QED

Interesting ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._perfect_games

Since 1973 there have been 14 perfect games, 9 of which were in AL stadiums (and 7 of the last 10!).

Fun tidbit .... Addie Joss needed just 74 pitches to throw his 1908 perfect game vs CHW!

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Fun tidbit .... Addie Joss needed just 74 pitches to throw his 1908 perfect game vs CHW!

Joss Schmoss. You conveniently failed to mention that Big Ed Walsh was a career .194 hitter.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Rob's right. What you said is "far superior" not "10% better" or anything like that, and I'm perfectly happy to win the wager if the AL gives us 60% or 80% or 100% of the next 5 no-hitters, but I thought given that you were making the case that about 90% of no hitters now come from the NL that you'd have been delighted with the terms of my offer. It appears that I was wrong. No problem. If anyone else is interested though, you know where to find me. Offer stands.

Well i been saying an NL no hitter is .9 of an AL no hitter......so yeah you were wrong. I would do 4 of the next 6 would be in the NL but thats just too many years to deal with.

As far as perfect games occurring in the AL more than the NL......all perfect games are no hitters...you going to need a no hitter to get a perfect games..ill take the odds of whats happened 19 of the last 21 or so times....

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

if you'd said 2013 and not 1973, there'd be no argument. But you wrote 1973, so it can be debated whether or not 55-51 is "far superior"

right..given that 19 of the last 21 occurred after 1973 thats nothing to be overlooked....heck when i started this debate a year or so ago it was 51-51 ...its not like the fact that the 4 more recent no hitters have been in the NL (and a litany of almost no hitters) have hurt the argument.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

But what does worth more mean? What do you want to see happen?

Well Stanton right now is trying to break the 'real' home run record of 61..but it wont be official....there wont be anything happening there.....same thing with NL no hitters being as 'real' as AL no hitters...... it is what it is..

[packs]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Well Stanton right now is trying to break the 'real' home run record of 61..but it wont be official....there wont be anything happening there.....same thing with NL no hitters being as 'real' as AL no hitters...... it is what it is..

If you don't give up a hit, isn't that a no hitter? How much more real could it get?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I would do 4 of the next 6 would be in the NL but thats just too many years to deal with.

Alright fine. How about this? If, between today and the end of the 2019 regular season, there have not been at least 4 NL no-hitters and there have not been at least 3 AL no-hitters, the wager is cancelled. Let me know what you're putting up, and I'll let you know if I accept. Everyone here's a witness. Leon can nominate someone to hold onto the cards in the meantime and then send them to the winner or return them to us when either the bet is won or has expired.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

If you don't give up a hit, isn't that a no hitter? How much more real could it get?

Bonds also hit more than 61 homers for real....

anyway i wont comment anymore until the next no hitter or NL no hitter light occurs.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

anyway i wont comment anymore until the next no hitter or NL no hitter light occurs.

If that silence is directed at me, I don't think you're generally allowed to wait and see if you're winning a bet before you decide if you're going to place it. So I'll just take that as a no thanks.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

If that silence is directed at me, I don't think you're generally allowed to wait and see if you're winning a bet before you decide if you're going to place it. So I'll just take that as a no thanks.

Silence on the issue of making my argument. As to a bet..i not into betting something 2 years down the line. I not into keeper fantasy leagues either......but I will give you $200 pp if the next two no hitters are in AL parks by 8/25/18. Combined no hitters dont count... No risk for you.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Silence on the issue of making my argument. As to a bet..i not into betting something 2 years down the line. I not into keeper fantasy leagues either......but I will give you $200 pp if the next two no hitters are in AL parks by 8/25/18. Combined no hitters dont count... No risk for you.

That's very kind. And of course I accept. C'mon Kluber!

[celoknob]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Silence on the issue of making my argument. As to a bet..i not into betting something 2 years down the line. I not into keeper fantasy leagues either......but I will give you $200 pp if the next two no hitters are in AL parks by 8/25/18. Combined no hitters dont count... No risk for you.

Wish I could get in on that. Even if NL no hitters are 10% easier the odds of the next two in AL are 20% (.45 x .45). 30% next two are in NL (55 x .55).

[darwinbulldog]

Times the probability that there will be two or more (without relief pitchers) within the next year.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by celoknob

Wish I could get in on that. Even if NL no hitters are 10% easier the odds of the next two in AL are 20% (.45 x .45). 30% next two are in NL (55 x .55).

I was being generous saying only 10% easier..as a way to have an agreement. I actually think its a lot higher than that. 19 of the last 21 ....etc..

[pclpads]

"Avenge??" curious word choice. How do you avenge something against an uninvolved, disinterested third party? If memory serves, Haddix' game in '59 was against the Braves, not the Dodjuhs and won by an Adcock HR. I also question whether current Pirates' players in the recent game, ever heard of Harvey Haddix, or for that matter his famous game. To do so would require a modicum of simple baseball history, something the current self-involved players likely lack, if for no other reason all were born decades after 1959.