PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They need to be even more proactive in my view, tell us which cards were submitted by known or strongly suspected card doctors because how the hell do we know. Of course it will never happen because of the pressure it would put on the reserve. So we're left to fend for ourselves. And even worse, they then push it off onto the sellers many or most of whom are innocents.

what a legitimate company who puts their customers first with integrity would certainly do something proactive like that or what Swarmee suggests. That's what WE would do with our business's. PSA and PWCC are rotten at the core and I don't even think there is an argument there.

They will give verbal blow jobs to everyone and anyone for as long as they can, because that's the kind of companies THEY run. They are both on MY DEAD list and they should be on your's too of companies you will never do business with again under any circumstances. But people are real stupid and that's the one thing you can always count on as well as what PSA & Brent Mastro count on.

[Frank A]

I don't know that PSA was not grading altered cards intentionally. No one else on here knows either. That statement has no fact. As far as I'm concerned this is a very major hit in the card market. The fact that these cards were graded is a disgrace to PSA. Why would anyone ever purchase a PSA card for big money again. They have totally destroyed their product.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Frank A

I don't know that PSA was not grading altered cards intentionally. No one else on here knows either. That statement has no fact. As far as I'm concerned this is a very major hit in the card market. The fact that these cards were graded is a disgrace to PSA. Why would anyone ever purchase a PSA card for big money again. They have totally destroyed their product.

Look at ebay and see what PWCC cards are selling for in their current auction. I don't think the broader market perceives it as you do or even knows. We are up against a huge mountain here, those that want to see change.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry Sloate has more experience than almost anyone here and has complete integrity. Read what he wrote about the extent and duration of this problem. Please Dave you are spinning in a contrafactual manner. I have been collecting since the outset of TPG and I absolutely agree with Barry this is a massive, pervasive problem. All the major industry participants know it too. I have had countless conversations confirming this over the years. Countless. With dealers, major auction houses, knowledgeable collectors, people who know the card doctors. There is nothing at all new about this, just a few items where some guys adept at searching were able to find before photos. It's a speck compared to what's out there.

YES, a speck. And yes, you listen to people who know more than you do and that you respect, like Barry and Peter. It's a road map for success in anything you do...like determining how long this fraud has been allowed to go on, for instance.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Frank A

I don't know that PSA was not grading altered cards intentionally. No one else on here knows either. That statement has no fact. As far as I'm concerned this is a very major hit in the card market. The fact that these cards were graded is a disgrace to PSA. Why would anyone ever purchase a PSA card for big money again. They have totally destroyed their product.

could not agree more but just look around you'll see just how moronic people really are. There are idiots everywhere that can't make it through High school. it will be business as usual until it's not.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There's at least an opportunity for it to end up in a better place, but I don't know. This industry has been operating in a set way for a long time and lots of that needs to change, through some combination of punishment, deterrence, and voluntary proactive steps. Unfortunately as in so many human endeavors, all the money in it has just corrupted it.

The one thing TPG's did that I believe hurt the hobby was to make cards exponentially more valuable based on criteria so minuscule that to the average collector was imperceptible. 7.5 looks like an 8, 8 is identical to an 8.5, 9's and 10's are interchangeable, yet the difference in price among these cards is enormous. That put way too much power in the hands of the grader, and took it away from the collector. And as you said, the hobby to a great extent has put too much emphasis on monetary value.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The one thing TPG's did that I believe hurt the hobby was to make cards exponentially more valuable based on criteria so miniscule that to the average collector was imperceptible. 7.5 looks like an 8, 8 is identical to an 8.5, 9's and 10's are interchangeable, yet the difference in price among these cards is enormous. That put way too much power in the hands of the grader, and took it away from the collector. And as you said, the hobby to a great extent has put too much emphasis on monetary value.

I personally think the distinctions are silly but the market can decide that for itself, nobody forced anyone to pay those premiums. Whereas most people can't detect alteration particularly within slabs, so there people really do depend on the competence of the TPGs. After all, the core mission of PSA when it started was to AUTHENTICATE.

[Goudey77]

My point of spamming this video is to to drive home the point that all TPG's should have a stance and be transparent on this topic. It is very clear that the CGC folks are comfortable talking restoration and have built a business model to address the various scenarios. It's the type of excellence we should expect from TPG's.
I understand that taking a stance and speaking about it puts your company under more scrutiny for "getting it right". Integrity and responsibility is what we consumers pay for.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Dave with all due respect, If you don't think there are 10's of thousands cards from this one clown alone your really not using your noodle. This IS and Has been rampant and widespread for 15 years or better. That's a lot of cards my handsome friend. A BOAT LOAD. This one Brent Mastro has been doing this as part of his business plan. You must not have been paying attention.

What I think isnt the point. The point is that the only thing that really matters is what can be proved, since that is the primary basis upon which people can be compelled to take action to try and improve the situation. It is also the only basis upon which bad actors can have serious adverse consequences put upon them that will, hopefully, serve as an example that discourages similar behavior by anyone else in the future.

As for Brent, it was more than 3 years ago that I got the last piece of the puzzle I needed to determine that PWCC was not being run on the up and up. Both direct from him and indirectly from others who foolishly chose to “brag” about what their roles were with respect to PWCC and people foolish enough to put it all down in writing.

I do not doubt that there are tainted slabbed cards out there for a moment, but I don’t think trying to incite a riot is going to improve the situation any faster nor improve the outcomes of trying address it.

This is going to take some time and resources and given no evidence of misconduct or malfeasance on the part of PSA so far we would not be doing ourselves any favors by becoming adversarial or militant right now based on the little we know to be actual fact. They have more than just the collector constituency to answer to and need to work through understanding what additional info they need, what possible actions can be taken and how to deal with conflicting obligations they may have to various stakeholder groups that they are accountable to. They should be given a chance to do this without the distraction of an angry mob taking away from their efforts.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

What I think isnt the point. The point is that the only thing that really matters is what can be proved, since that is the primary basis upon which people can be compelled to take action to try and improve the situation. It is also the only basis upon which bad actors can have serious adverse consequences put upon them that will, hopefully, serve as an example that discourages similar behavior by anyone else in the future.

This is where you are wrong. It’s more than just what can be proved because the BODA are focused on just those cards easily found with front/back scans from a few websites. They admit that for wvery card they document with scans they pass on a few that have alterations but can’t get a good scan. These passed cards are also on the same Moser submissions. And there are undoubtedly some on the Moser submissions that were purchased from shows and have no early scans available. Your “proof” of 400 cards will probably end up at 5,000 cards and can eventually be linked to 50,000 others. Remember, they just started documenting by looking at 1 seller and haven’t even looked at Auction Houses for the original purchase.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

What I think isnt the point. The point is that the only thing that really matters is what can be proved, since that is the primary basis upon which people can be compelled to take action to try and improve the situation. It is also the only basis upon which bad actors can have serious adverse consequences put upon them that will, hopefully, serve as an example that discourages similar behavior by anyone else in the future.

As for Brent, it was more than 3 years ago that I got the last piece of the puzzle I needed to determine that PWCC was not being run on the up and up. Both direct from him and indirectly from others who foolishly chose to “brag” about what their roles were with respect to PWCC and people foolish enough to put it all down in writing.

I do not doubt that there are tainted slabbed cards out there for a moment, but I don’t think trying to incite a riot is going to improve the situation any faster nor improve the outcomes of trying address it.

This is going to take some time and resources and given no evidence of misconduct or malfeasance on the part of PSA so far we would not be doing ourselves any favors by becoming adversarial or militant right now based on the little we know to be actual fact. They have more than just the collector constituency to answer to and need to work through understanding what additional info they need, what possible actions can be taken and how to deal with conflicting obligations they may have to various stakeholder groups that they are accountable to. They should be given a chance to do this without the distraction of an angry mob taking away from their efforts.

Dave, with respect, in my opinion your measured, cautious, prudent, careful, thoughtful, etc. approach has never worked in the past. Even when the problem was on a small scale like WIWAG. Many of us have no reason to believe anything is going to change here without a very forceful show of outrage by the ultimate constituency, we the collectors (and honest dealers). Nobody wants to or is trying to incite a riot. People are demanding accountability and change, and the foxes guarding the henhouse are not likely to deliver it. Their incentive appears to be to guard against pressure on the accounting reserve, not to do what is in collectors' best interests. There is very good reason the mob is angry in this case, all our collections likely are infested with altered cards, and all we've heard is if you can figure it out for yourselves call your seller. No riot -- change.

PS it doesn't take a genius to extrapolate from what's been found on BO in a short period of time with a very limited focus to 25 years of grading.

[egbeachley]

and I should add that you can’t take the altered population and divide by 30 million Cards graded. That includes resubmits, cards valued under $100, YuGiOh, badly damaged, ungradeable, etc. The true population for comparison is probably closer to 2-5 million.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

and I should add that you can’t take the altered population and divide by 30 million Cards graded. That includes resubmits, cards valued under $100, YuGiOh, badly damaged, ungradeable, etc. The true population for comparison is probably closer to 2-5 million.

Eric it doesn't even matter, it's still an astonishingly high number in all likelihood.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Eric it doesn't even matter, it's still an astonishingly high number in all likelihood.

It is. But both ends adjusted to the proper levels gets a more accurate guage of the error rates. I see 0.1 and 0.2 percentages when it may really be 2% or more. That makes it significant rather than minuscule.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA has been in business for 25 plus years. If that were the case, someone who left would have spilled by now, in my opinion. As I recently told someone writing a story, in my opinion, it's a combination of the extreme sophistication and talent of card doctors, the lesser sophistication of some (probably junior) graders, and in some cases insufficient time spent. Just my opinion. If I'm proven wrong, so be it.

That's a great point. And pretty much the same one I make to conspiracy theory guys.

I'd love to have a look at one of the proven trimmed cards to see just how good the trim is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's a great point. And pretty much the same one I make to conspiracy theory guys.

I'd love to have a look at one of the proven trimmed cards to see just how good the trim is.

It's probably not hard to buy one.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's probably not hard to buy one.

If there was one I could afford.....

I'd be all over one as an altered card if I could get it for like $20. Most are worth more even if they were slabbed as altered.

I was interested in picking up one of the fake Jeter auto cards they were showing on the Postwar side, but at $100+ each I just don't have the budget.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

and I should add that you can’t take the altered population and divide by 30 million Cards graded. That includes resubmits, cards valued under $100, YuGiOh, badly damaged, ungradeable, etc. The true population for comparison is probably closer to 2-5 million.

You don't think YuGiOh cards are being altered? I bet some magic cards are. Turning a beta into an alpha would be really easy.

[swarmee]

PSA's claim that they catch a certain percentage will also include the number of cards that are not actually altered or minsize that they declare. These are usually less important because if they aren't actually altered, they get slabbed the next time submitted.
Alpha errors versus beta errors. False positives vs. False negatives.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by steve B

You don't think YuGiOh cards are being altered? I bet some magic cards are. Turning a beta into an alpha would be really easy.

Pokemon are definitely being counterfeited. Magic Alpha/Beta/antiquities/Arabian nights/legends are more likely retouched like 1971 Topps black borders rather than being die cut down from Beta corners to Alpha corners.
That would be a huge rabbit hole that hasn't been explored yet.

[oldjudge]

Corey is spot on with his comments. How could any rational person have not questioned the number of Mint and Gem Mint vintage cards? Suspended disbelief gets you into trouble. The current scandals involve cards and autographs. I’d be willing to bet that there is a similar scandal just around the corner on game used uniforms. It’s amazing to me that these “great” uniforms keep popping up, and then they almost always relate to a significant moment in that player’s career. How is that determined—photo matching. I think it would be really interesting if a study was done as to how accurate photo matching is. My guess is that it is no more accurate than card grading, and possibly as inaccurate as autograph grading.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Corey is spot on with his comments. How could any rational person have not questioned the number of Mint and Gem Mint vintage cards? Suspended disbelief gets you into trouble. The current scandals involve cards and autographs. I’d be willing to bet that there is a similar scandal just around the corner on game used uniforms. It’s amazing to me that these “great” uniforms keep popping up, and then they almost always relate to a significant moment in that player’s career. How is that determined—photo matching. I think it would be really interesting if a study was done as to how accurate photo matching is. My guess is that it is no more accurate than card grading, and possibly as inaccurate as autograph grading.

What percentage of the single signed Babe Ruth balls were actually signed by Babe Ruth? I started to wonder that when it seemed every auction had several if not more.

[oldjudge]

He was a prolific singer, but not that prolific.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

He was a prolific singer, but not that prolific.

It could be urban legend, but I seem to recall reading that James Spence once was asked in litigation whether Ruth wrote left handed or right handed and he didn't know.

In any event, the number of single signed Ruths I was seeing when I started to review auction catalogs just struck me as improbable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

He was a prolific singer, but not that prolific.

Was he a tenor, baritone, or bass?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

He was a prolific singer, but not that prolific.

I don't think he was as prolific at singing as he was signing. Though I am sure when he tied one on he might have done a few karaokes.

As for PSA's response I think it was expected. They have lawyers and are a public company.

.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Corey is spot on with his comments. How could any rational person have not questioned the number of Mint and Gem Mint vintage cards? Suspended disbelief gets you into trouble. .

When the scandal with the autographed T206s and others broke a couple months ago, my reaction was one of non-surprise. Waaaaaaaaay too many cards turning up signed from an era when such things simply weren't done.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Was he a tenor, baritone, or bass?

God love spell check

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Eric it doesn't even matter, it's still an astonishingly high number in all likelihood.

It sort of matters, to the extent it makes it seem much worse. The 'potential attempted pool' of submissions would be much smaller, which means that a higher percentage of altered cards are getting through (based on the potential pool). You can take all the $10-$100 (or pick a number) valued cards out of the potential pool, since they are not likely candidates. Or they could contain 'test submissions' for alterations. Unless I'm misinterpreting the original point.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't think he was as prolific at singing as he was signing. Though I am sure when he tied one on he might have done a few karaokes.

As for PSA's response I think it was expected. They have lawyers and are a public company.

.

More like rap...Sort of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0C5zZnYR8w

[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Pokemon are definitely being counterfeited. Magic Alpha/Beta/antiquities/Arabian nights/legends are more likely retouched like 1971 Topps black borders rather than being die cut down from Beta corners to Alpha corners.
That would be a huge rabbit hole that hasn't been explored yet.

I'm trying to remember which ones it was, I'm thinking YuGiOh, but Upper deck got caught counterfeiting cards they were producing. Fake foils turned up in retail repacks from treat? Or some other repacker. When That company was asked where they got the fake cards from they said they'd come from UD, who were printing the real ones.

[Bored5000]

Here is the response from PWCC that I received about a Moser card I purchased that was probably cleaned but not trimmed:

"Thank you or reaching out to us about this card. At this time we are working to address those cards which have been trimmed, recolored, have corners built up, etc. The card you purchased is not obviously altered and we don’t have enough evidence to determine yet that it is. Please be patient while we work through the clearly altered cards; if there are any issues with any of your past purchases we promise we will get to you soon. Thank you for your assistance on this.

​
Thank you!

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Marketplace"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Here is the response from PWCC that I received about a Moser card I purchased that was probably cleaned but not altered:

"Thank you or reaching out to us about this card. At this time we are working to address those cards which have been trimmed, recolored, have corners built up, etc. The card you purchased is not obviously altered and we don’t have enough evidence to determine yet that it is. Please be patient while we work through the clearly altered cards; if there are any issues with any of your past purchases we promise we will get to you soon. Thank you for your assistance on this.

​
Thank you!

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Marketplace"

As the old standard goes, "She didn't say yes, she didn't say no."

[Exhibitman]

Now that's a dumb response: admit there are massive problems but that yours is less of one than the worst. Love to hear her answer under oath as to which trimmed, altered, rebuilt, etc. cards she meant. How massive a pile must there be to make it impossible for PWCC even to address your card?

Just curious: Which hand did she use?

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What percentage of the single signed Babe Ruth balls were actually signed by Babe Ruth? I started to wonder that when it seemed every auction had several if not more.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by dplath

I’m sure it happens but I don’t know of anything as widespread as what we’ve got going on right now.

This type of scandal is nothing new in the hobby world.

In 2005, there was a major comic book scandal where CGC slabbed high value comic books were found to be "micro" trimmed. Hundreds of four and five figure comics... and the trimming often bumped the grade enough to raise the value thousands of dollars. Like this scandal, before and after photos exposed everything. The books in question sourced from a high profile comic book dealer named Jason Ewert.

CGC addressed it quickly and published lists of books that passed through Jason Ewert and had a process to re-examine suspect books.

Unfortunately, it appears some of the old threads were lost when CGC upgraded their message boards a few years ago, but here are some links. Note that many images have since broken, but the narrative tells the story:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/top...g-books-redux/

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/top...trimmed-books/

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/top...irco-trimming/

[Mr. Zipper]

PS: Jason Ewert was banned by CGC and essentially run from the comic book hobby, never to be heard from again.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

This type of scandal is nothing new in the hobby world.

In 2005, there was a major comic book scandal where CGC slabbed high value comic books were found to be "micro" trimmed. Hundreds of four and five figure comics... and the trimming often bumped the grade enough to raise the value thousands of dollars. Like this scandal, before and after photos exposed everything. The books in question sourced from a high profile comic book dealer named Jason Ewert.

CGC addressed it quickly and published lists of books that passed through Jason Ewert and had a process to re-examine suspect books.

Unfortunately, it appears some of the old threads were lost when CGC upgraded their message boards a few years ago, but here are some links. Note that many images have since broken, but the narrative tells the story:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/top...g-books-redux/

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/top...trimmed-books/

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/top...irco-trimming/

So what happened to Jsaon Ewert?

Edited: Thanks! You reposted before I could type my question

But no criminal charges for 4 and 5 figure fraud?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So what happened to Jsaon Ewert?

Edited: Thanks! You reposted before I could type my question

But no criminal charges for 4 and 5 figure fraud?

Nope.

Interestingly, the same conversation happened 10 years ago regarding him, i.e., "what's the crime?"... "is it a crime to trim a comic book?" etc.

Has Jason Ewert ever served any time?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

CGC addressed it quickly and published lists of books that passed through Jason Ewert and had a process to re-examine suspect books.

What a novel concept to restore trust to the marketplace...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

What a novel concept to restore trust to the marketplace...

The concern here is to protect the guarantee, not to restore trust, so far anyhow. Plus PSA has better kool aid and spinners suggesting this is just a little spill.

[Exhibitman]

I think we need to call in the big gun to deal with this:



First, take a big step back... and literally, F$$$ YOUR OWN FACE! I don't know what kind of TPG bull**t power play you're trying to pull here, but sports cards is my hobby. So whatever you're thinking, you'd better think again! Otherwise I'm gonna have to head down there and I will rain down an un-Godly f****ng firestorm upon you! You're gonna have to call the f******g United Nations and get a f******g binding resolution to keep me from f****g destroying you. I'm talking scorched earth, motherf***r! I will massacre you! I WILL F*** YOU UP!

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I think we need to call in the big gun to deal with this:



First, take a big step back... and literally, F$$$ YOUR OWN FACE! I don't know what kind of TPG bull**t power play you're trying to pull here, but sports cards is my hobby. So whatever you're thinking, you'd better think again! Otherwise I'm gonna have to head down there and I will rain down an un-Godly f****ng firestorm upon you! You're gonna have to call the f******g United Nations and get a f******g binding resolution to keep me from f****g destroying you. I'm talking scorched earth, motherf***r! I will massacre you! I WILL F*** YOU UP!

I like the concept but who is this?

[Exhibitman]

Les Grossman. A character from Tropic Thunder

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Les Grossman. A character from Tropic Thunder

Not to be confused with Les Nessman, a character from WKRP, who reported one of the worst disasters of his time:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p00nBSNIPwg

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Les Grossman. A character from Tropic Thunder

Is this a relative of Alan Rosen?

[Peter_Spaeth]

yowza
Jim Brown RC 7 to 8 for a big gain on the play.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2773

[swarmee]

And if you like Leaf football, check your PSA graded collection.

[Throttlesteer]

And yes that really is Tom Cruise

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

yowza
Jim Brown RC 7 to 8 for a big gain on the play.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2773

These guy's are uncovering monster cards every single day!! Is this Gary Moser and/or Brent Huigens millionaires yet?